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***OMT - Spurs vs Liverpool***

Tottenham manager Mauricio Pochettino: "If Chelsea go 12 points clear it is a big problem, but not only for us.

"It is difficult to fight for the Premier League if you show that performance, that lack of desire to play for a win. If you start a game like we start then it is very difficult.

"We never coped with the tempo of their game. Liverpool deserve the credit.

"It will be difficult for anyone to catch Chelsea, it is a massive gap. More difficult than before.

"We are second in the table, my feeling now is not so good but we need to recover after defeat and try to fight. We need to focus on the Europa League and the FA Cup before our next league game."

http://m.bbc.com/sport/live/football/38502200
 
DubaiSpur said:
No, that's not the bit that people are picking at. You're right in that being pressed or being afforded the ball against a ten-man defense makes us struggle - but where you're sort of slipping up (imo) is suggesting that we're a *very* good side despite this. Fact is, we can't just look good against average sides or sides incapable of sitting deep/pressing and then call ourselves *very* good - the higher up we go, the more sides we encounter capable of pressing us to extinction or sitting deep and boring us into submission. We got a taste of that in the CL, when Leverkusen (ninth in the Bundesliga at the time of writing, I believe - floundering in mid-table) relentlessly dominated us across both games, and Monaco just did away with us as casually as they would a bottom-of-the-table Ligue 1 side.

If such approaches leave us floundering, then what does it say about our true quality when a mid-table Bundesliga side and a Ligue 1 outfit can use them to dominate us? Surely we can't delude ourselves into thinking we're world beaters because we put away the Middlesbroughs and Watfords of this world.

There's an argument in there somewhere that supports your assertion, as I said. Our wins against Chelsea and City at home were masterpieces, and worthy of a great deal of admiration - and consideration in your view of how we do against sides that press or sit deep. But I'm not sure you've hit upon it just yet.
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We have a deserved good league position because we're a very good team. A lot of our weaknesses against bus parking teams are counter acted by our strengths.

Or problem with high pressing teams is more severe.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Think Mcmananan made a good point. Chelsea came to Liverpool and sat back. Didn't need to give them any space. We've seen this last month teams frustrate Liverpool by sitting deep and picking them off. What do we do? Push right up and give Mane the opportunity for two easy goals.

This ones on Poch for me. Naive.
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Correct.

Everybody could see this coming a mile off, except Poch. They swarmed us and battered us, I feel like a Luton Town fan
 
braineclipse said:
We have a deserved good league position because we're a very good team. A lot of our weaknesses against bus parking teams are counter acted by our strengths.

Or problem with high pressing teams is more severe.
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Flat track bullies, would be the rejoinder. Against the teams capable of pressing us or denying us, we fold more often than not. And, if that argument holds weight, then it bodes ill for our chances of success in Europe or in the CL, because consistently beating Soton or Watford isn't equivalent to the sort of hoodoo-breaking consistency required to win against teams big and small in the quest for a title - nor is it a favorable indicator of potential competitiveness in Europe when we get matched against teams like Dortmund (in the EL) and Leverkusen/Monaco (in the CL), and get shown up pretty badly. To say nothing, of course, of what a big team like Madrid or Barca would do to us were they to be drawn as our opponents.

There's truth in the assertion that we're definitely good enough to beat Chelsea and City at home (very convincingly), so we must be at least a good side that isn't only reliant on wins against titchy minnows to stay where it is. But I'm not sure taking it in the direction that you've done (i.e, we struggle against *both* strategies that teams on our level will employ to deny and defeat us) is helping your argument, is all.
 
Modric THFC said:
Our away record against the other top 6 clubs under Pochettino in his 3 seasons is poor.

14/15 W0 D1 L4
15/16 W1 D3 L1
16/17 W0 D2 L3
Total W1 D6 L8
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PL Top 6 mini-League 2016/17

1 ... Liverpoo - 16pts from 8 games
2 ... Chelscum - 13pts from 8
3 ... Spurs - 9pts from 8
4 ... bricky - 7pts from 6
5 ... Manure - 6pts from 6
6 ... Arse - 5pts from 6

Could be worse. Could be a lot worse. Like it was under AVB.
 
DubaiSpur said:
That's....not encouraging. o_O

Just the win against City in all our away visits across three years.
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And that's why I keep saying, we are not as good as we think we are. We can raise our game at home on occasions against the top teams, but all teams can do that sometimes. We are still short of being a top side. I just hope we can hang on for a top four finish.
 
Spur of the moment said:
Could be worse. Could be a lot worse. Like it was under AVB.
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Off the top of my head, 2012-2013 saw us get 4 points against United (win at OT, draw at home), 3 points against Arsenal (loss away, win at home), 3 points against City (loss away, win at home), 3 points against Liverpool (loss away, win at home) a point against Chelsea (loss away, draw at home) and a point against Everton (loss away, draw at home).

AVB was sacked in 2013/2014 with half the season still to play.

So, no, not sure it was all that bad under AVB. The magnitude of individual defeats in 2013/2014 was horrendous, but in that 'table against the top six' format, he comes out pretty good across his one and a half seasons. ;)
 
braineclipse said:
Agree fully.

I find it a strange change from the trust and belief shown to ball playing midfielders in Pochettino's first season to the current approach.

I can only assume that there's something I'm missing or that Pochettino is simply rewarding our overall results with game time in big matches for our regular starters.
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That is commendable but surely part of the meritocratic approach is also to be be so during the game.
Why did Wanyama stay on the pitch today?
He wasn't defending, there was little energy in tracking, his passing was to Pool and he was not likely to give us control or change the game, surely Winks was a more urgent call to make?
 
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Pirate55 said:
And that's why I keep saying, we are not as good as we think we are. We can raise our game at home on occasions against the top teams, but all teams can do that sometimes. We are still short of being a top side. I just hope we can hang on for a top four finish.
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Well, yeah, but we're also not that bad. We're a good side - one I expect will go past 72 points this season, setting a new PL record for the club. That is definitely the mark of a good side.
The thing that most frustrates me about today is simply that Klopp dominates Poch so much, and there's no reason why that should be the case. Even when they played at the Lane, they looked the better side - even when they played at the Lane in one of Klopp's very *first* games (compared to Poch, who already had a season and a bit under his belt), they still looked better than us.
 
Pirate55 said:
Conclusion - Poch is still out thought by the top coaches. Cue our CL results.
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I don't think Poch is out thought, I actually think its a mistake that Pep/Wenger/Klopp all make.

- The belief that playing your style outweighs playing to another teams obvious stregths/weaknesses.

My hope in Poch is I have seen him adapt, but its usually when he believes the opponent is significantly better than us. I think he felt we were Pools equals or betters and playing our way was the right answer.

All part of learning, no need for us to overeact, it's the middle of February, only our 3rd league defeat, none against sides that we should not expect tough games against, still good place in table, points, GD, etc.
 
I get the feeling there is something not quite right in the squad. We have now failed to score in open play in our last three games. We have largely stopped creating chances. Kane is getting little service - and doesn't look like creating something out of nothing. Can't put my finger on it just yet but it may be something to do with the mini break in Barca. We havent looked the same since.
 
Very brave from Klopp today. They have a crap defence so they just pushed forward and swarmed us.

We are so keen to play out from the back it is ludicrous. We pass pass pass get it into Wanyama and 5 opposition players are closing on him and we lose it.

We should have played past the press, past the midfield, get them turned, play the game in their final third rather than ours.

Do NOT keep playing it out from the back if that is what the opposition want us to do.
 
Raziel said:
I don't think Poch is out thought, I actually think its a mistake that Pep/Wenger/Klopp all make.

- The belief that playing your style outweighs playing to another teams obvious stregths/weaknesses.
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Right, but against Liverpool, our style isn't different to our opponent's style. We both press. Just that Klopp's team seems to be *much*, *much* better, smarter and more skilled at it than our lads. And I'm wondering why that is - maybe we should be adopting Liverpool's pressing system instead of our own? Is there a substantive difference between medium block and high block pressing? If so, why were Liverpool the ones closing down all the way up to our keeper today instead of it being the other way around?

Raziel said:
My hope in Poch is I have seen him adapt, but its usually when he believes the opponent is significantly better than us. I think he felt we were Pools equals or betters and playing our way was the right answer.

All part of learning, no need for us to overeact, it's the middle of February, only our 3rd league defeat, none against sides that we should not expect tough games against, still good place in table, points, GD, etc.
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Poch went 3 at the back against Arsenal away, stunning me and many people who expected a conventional 4-2-3-1/4-1-4-1. Prior to this season, he went full defensive against Arsenal away in 2014/2015 as well. He also specifically used the Moses-Azpilicueta aerial gap in our game against Chelsea at the Lane, which got two goals, and then emphasized our half-space width to isolate their full-backs and nullify them.

He's adaptable. He'll learn. I just wish I knew why he remains so unable to match Klopp, for whatever reason - given the similarity of styles.
 
Bullet said:
Very brave from Klopp today. They have a crap defence so they just pushed forward and swarmed us.

We are so keen to play out from the back it is ludicrous. We pass pass pass get it into Wanyama and 5 opposition players are closing on him and we lose it.

We should have played past the press, past the midfield, get them turned, play the game in their final third rather than ours.

Do NOT keep playing it out from the back if that is what the opposition want us to do.
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Exactly. If amateurs like us can see it, why can't Poch?
 
Bullet said:
We should have played past the press, past the midfield, get them turned, play the game in their final third rather than ours.

Do NOT keep playing it out from the back if that is what the opposition want us to do.
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We *tried*, but every single 50:50, header and loose ball dropped to a Liverpool player. Kane was isolated up front, and even when he had support, a long ball to him would be picked up by a well-positioned red shirt before we could get there.

I don't think such simple tactics would have worked today. We needed something different - I don't know what, but something which breaks this voodoo Klopp has over Poch.

Edit: the pattern of the game was really repetitive, for what it's worth. We alternated between trying to build from the back (which always failed) and lumping it to Kane. Nine times out of ten, the latter approach would fail too, in more dangerous ways - the ball would fall to a Liverpool player, who would send it to Coutinho or Wijnaldum - both of whom would spin and avoid the tackles that came flying in, and were suddenly free in acres of space to advance the ball into the feet of the onrushing Mane/Milner/Firmino/A.N.Other on the edge of our area. We'd lose half the field in terms of territory, and would end it desperately snuffing out a Liverpool shot or cross. Then, we'd take the ball and either laboriously work it forward again (always failing), or lump it clear again and repeat the whole process. Only once out of maybe ten times did Kane actually bring the ball down to a Spurs pair of feet to start a rare foray forward.

That can't be solved by bypassing the midfield, because it's what we were doing anyway.
 
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Ah well. Plenty of stick at work no doubt on Monday. Although I did tell them all to lump on their own team to make some easy money
 
Bullet said:
Very brave from Klopp today. They have a crap defence so they just pushed forward and swarmed us.

We are so keen to play out from the back it is ludicrous. We pass pass pass get it into Wanyama and 5 opposition players are closing on him and we lose it.

We should have played past the press, past the midfield, get them turned, play the game in their final third rather than ours.

Do NOT keep playing it out from the back if that is what the opposition want us to do.
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Exactly.


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