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Official - Holtby

Why don't you like him higher up the pitch? I think he has goals in him there, he drifts in off the flanks undetected and gets into good areas, he works the ball well in and around the box too. I don't trust him as someone who's going to get up and down the pitch all game and be in the heat of the battle, I don't think he can dictate play enough to compensate for his lack of agility and athleticism.
 
I think the CM role requires some discipline and certainly understanding with his central midfield partner. I think having such a huge array of midfielders has hindered us in that respect. Just as it is imperitive to build up a centre back partnership, it is key to develop a good midfield combination. In fact partnerships all over the pitch are vital for us to show good chemistry and work as a real unit.

We have so many different combinations and none are abundantly clear as to what we as fans prefer. I think Poch needs to try and figure this out as early as possible. It's not easy but it will mean letting go of a few midfielders too I would imagine. Especially if Mason and Holtby are in his plans are potential CMs. It's an awful lot for Poch to take in right now.
 
Rossi22 said:
Why don't you like him higher up the pitch? I think he has goals in him there, he drifts in off the flanks undetected and gets into good areas, he works the ball well in and around the box too. I don't trust him as someone who's going to get up and down the pitch all game and be in the heat of the battle, I don't think he can dictate play enough to compensate for his lack of agility and athleticism.
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He follows the ball way too much which isolates the striker completely. Of course you can say he might do the same in CM but i really don't think he will as he'll get more than enough touches when starting in a deeper position.
 
I liked how Poch was using him the first few games, coming in off the right. I'd be amazed if he ever became a regular for us as a CM, for me it would be like Utd trying to play Mata there. Holtby might be a little more robust but I don't see it working, it's not something we need to force either given how many options we have there already.
 
Kingdawson said:
He follows the ball way too much which isolates the striker completely. Of course you can say he might do the same in CM but i really don't think he will as he'll get more than enough touches when starting in a deeper position.
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Sometimes it does seem that a human equivalent of a terrier dog has invaded the pitch. :lol:

But I ****ing love him. I hope Poch can mould that excitability and focus it a little more.
 
I liked what Poch tried today with him and Bentaleb. Having two players at the back there capable of passing forward and joining the attack is great BUT they both need to learn their defensive responsibilities. For me it's one or the other atm alongside Capoue.
 
Cochise said:
I liked what Poch tried today with him and Bentaleb. Having two players at the back there capable of passing forward and joining the attack is great BUT they both need to learn their defensive responsibilities. For me it's one or the other atm alongside Capoue.
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yes capoue for me is the best in positioning and awareness and ought to be first choice there, sandro backup. the other position can be rotated amongst paulinho, holtby, bentaleb and dembele. happy to have a very active rotation policy here, making sure that whoever starts goes 100% for 60 minutes.
 
Rossi22 said:
I liked how Poch was using him the first few games, coming in off the right. I'd be amazed if he ever became a regular for us as a CM, for me it would be like Utd trying to play Mata there. Holtby might be a little more robust but I don't see it working, it's not something we need to force either given how many options we have there already.
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The way I see it, Holtby has three roles he can perform on the pitch for Poch:

1) As a physical AM who defends from the front by closing down the opposition's back line quickly and relentlessly, and by holding on to the ball a little bit longer than, say a more lightweight AM like Eriksen when in possession,

2) as one of the two DMs behind the AM three, with license to roam forward at will to give the attacking midfield three more flexibility and add to our numbers in the final third, and

3) as a utility player who can slot into any of the three AM (RAM, CAM, LAM) slots or either of the two DM slots when necessary.

Each of these roles is tailored to a certain situation. The first is ideal for when we're facing a physical, West Ham-esque opponent whose back line and goalkeepers aren't the best technically and thus prone to losing possession or becoming flustered and thus losing the ability to play accurate long balls from the back. The second is perfect for when we're facing a team that's committed to sitting deep and denying us space and time by overwhelming our forward line with two banks of four, which ultimately allows us to push one of our two DMs up to support and leave just the other one plus the two CBs to defend on the half-way line. The third is when we have no players left for a like-for-like swap, or when we need a bit of energy or commitment anywhere on the field.

And given that we'll be facing teams that are both physical and committed to defend deep quite a lot this season, I suspect we'll see a lot more of Holtby than most imagine. And, given that his technical skills and footballing intelligence are actually quite good (not as good as Eriksen's, but really quite good) I don't think that'll be a bad thing at all.
 
I like Holtby in the middle, but didnt enjoy him as the Right forward. He hasn't got the pace, much better suited in the middle....
 
DubaiSpur said:
The way I see it, Holtby has three roles he can perform on the pitch for Poch:

1) As a physical AM who defends from the front by closing down the opposition's back line quickly and relentlessly, and by holding on to the ball a little bit longer than, say a more lightweight AM like Eriksen when in possession,

2) as one of the two DMs behind the AM three, with license to roam forward at will to give the attacking midfield three more flexibility and add to our numbers in the final third, and

3) as a utility player who can slot into any of the three AM (RAM, CAM, LAM) slots or either of the two DM slots when necessary.

Each of these roles is tailored to a certain situation. The first is ideal for when we're facing a physical, West Ham-esque opponent whose back line and goalkeepers aren't the best technically and thus prone to losing possession or becoming flustered and thus losing the ability to play accurate long balls from the back. The second is perfect for when we're facing a team that's committed to sitting deep and denying us space and time by overwhelming our forward line with two banks of four, which ultimately allows us to push one of our two DMs up to support and leave just the other one plus the two CBs to defend on the half-way line. The third is when we have no players left for a like-for-like swap, or when we need a bit of energy or commitment anywhere on the field.

And given that we'll be facing teams that are both physical and committed to defend deep quite a lot this season, I suspect we'll see a lot more of Holtby than most imagine. And, given that his technical skills and footballing intelligence are actually quite good (not as good as Eriksen's, but really quite good) I don't think that'll be a bad thing at all.
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I can see what you're saying, there is merit in that... but it is peculiar to him that he is a 60 minute player; he is only really worth a spot when going full pelt, which is not sustainable. He is OK but not the player I hoped he would be. Hopefully we have a better player in every one of the scenarios, but he can deputise or sub in well
 
Cochise said:
I liked what Poch tried today with him and Bentaleb. Having two players at the back there capable of passing forward and joining the attack is great BUT they both need to learn their defensive responsibilities. For me it's one or the other atm alongside Capoue.
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I agree - that could be a great combination. But as you said, they each need to know when to sit and when to push. That's partly experience, partly coaching and partly a settled partnership that will do that.

Under the dinotard, Bentaleb didn't seem to have that in him, despite all of his positive traits. Hopefully Poch can coach it in to him in the short term, but experience with age should get him there in the long term if not.
 
I've maintained for some time that in the three midfield slots, we need a passer, a tackler and a player that can make things happen. So Capoue/Sandro, Bentaleb/Hotlby and Dembele/Eriksen/Paulinho are the players that fill these midfield slots. Dembele and Paulinho are the players that don't quite fit within this system, they have been included as the players that can make things happen as that is the category that they most suit; Demebele can make things happen by his forward running, Paulinho does score goals.
 
Spur of the moment said:
OS has Holtby as MOTM with currently 32% of the vote. Next is Dier with 18% followed by Eriksen 14%. About right for me.
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That is because Holtby is the guy seen to be doing something. All pointless effort. He left a huge hole in the centre of the pitch, as he went haring around trying to do other people's jobs, while Bentaleb had to complete with midfielders on his own. We rarely had decent possession because of this. And we couldnt get the ball consistently to the front 4.

But who is gonna notice that. Look at the little guy run. Doing his best wandering Robbie Keane/ Wayne Rooney impression. He's like a playground footballer who spends the whole game following in the ball.
 
Bullet said:
I can see what you're saying, there is merit in that... but it is peculiar to him that he is a 60 minute player; he is only really worth a spot when going full pelt, which is not sustainable. He is OK but not the player I hoped he would be. Hopefully we have a better player in every one of the scenarios, but he can deputise or sub in well
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In scenarios one and two, Paulinho would most likely be able to do a comparable or better job, and admittedly is a bit more mature and less prone to become the on-pitch equivalent of a human terrier a la Holtby. However, a lot depends on whether his summer break after the World Cup (his first for a long time, if I remember correctly) has rejuvenated him sufficiently: can he overcome the fatigue that was evident in his play last season? Additionally, if the Juventus rumors were true (they were broken by fairly reputable sources in the Telegraph, if I remember correctly), then there are still teams out there that are willing to pay anything up to 20 million pounds for him: perhaps selling him to fund acquisitions like Schneiderlin or Musacchio would be preferable to selling Holtby, who'd fetch a much lower fee while still being quite comparable to Paulinho, indiscipline and injudicious energy usage aside.

In scenario three, I actually think Dembele could be a good alternative to Holtby: indeed, I think he'd work for any of the three scenarios to a great extent. However, there are two major problems with Dembele: number one, his decision-making when it comes to releasing the ball at the right time is very suspect, and two, his tendency to break down after 65-70 minutes is actually very similar to Holtby's. Will Dembele be creative enough to be Eriksen's competition for an AM place? Or quick enough with the ball to be a deep-lying playmaker a la Schneiderlin or Capoue? Does he offer that much more than Holtby, who despite his faults is both a proficient passer and fit enough (versus Dembele with his hip) to be relied upon for large parts of a season at the very least?

Beyond those two players, I don't think anyone else in the squad can offer the same tactical versatility that Holtby offers. Perhaps Chadli, but it's doubtful. So overall, I think we'd be best served by keeping Holtby: his pros outweigh his cons, imo.
 
Modric THFC said:
That is because Holtby is the guy seen to be doing something. All pointless effort. He left a huge hole in the centre of the pitch, as he went haring around trying to do other people's jobs, while Bentaleb had to complete with midfielders on his own. We rarely had decent possession because of this. And we couldnt get the ball consistently to the front 4.

But who is gonna notice that. Look at the little guy run. Doing his best wandering Robbie Keane/ Wayne Rooney impression. He's like a playground footballer who spends the whole game following in the ball.
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You honestly think Poch is going to play him if all he does is follow the ball and not stick to what he wants him to do withih his system?
 
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