Moussa Sissoko

[MKSpur]

I’m not Sissoko’s biggest fan but one thing you can’t say is he hasn’t wrung every last drop of his ability to become an elite footballer and gives everything physically on the pitch .

Jenas would be on the opposite end of the talent vs drive scale.

Since what may well be reviewed as our golden age under Poch we seemed to have signed a few players who have physicality and pace at the expense of technique - which may have been fine if one or two are involved but when you have four or five it makes it difficult to keep the ball or work the opposition as one of them will break or slow the passing sequence. Lo Celso NDombele and Bergwijn look like players who can help with this but we’ve rarely seen all three of them together, a couple more this summer will help redress the balance.

 

[elltrev]

Was responding to Bishop saying he hides from the ball when deep - that is where he does majority of his work. And your stats don’t show that Sissoko hides from the ball, simply that he makes less passes. Of course you’d expect Lo Celso and Winks passing the ball more, they have a different functionality in the team and id be concerned if Sissoko was the one consistently spraying the ball around. But hide, he most definitely does not....

I agree the stats don't prove he hides, but as you say they certainly prove that he gets on the ball less than all of our other central midfielders - including Winks, who also does the majority of his work deep. And I think it's unusual to have a central midfield pairing where one gets on the ball so little. E.g. in 16/17 Dembele and Wanyama's numbers were 64 and 59. In 15/16, Dier's and Dembele's were 57 and 55. In 11/12 Modric and Parker's were 71 and 63. In 09/10 Huddlestone's and Palacios' were 54 and 48. Compared to Winks and Sissoko's 68 and 46 this season - it's very unusual.

Personally I also see him multiple times per match pointing to a teammate to be passed to, rather than making space to receive a pass himself. Though I appreciate we're probably not going to agree on that without watching a match together and commenting on it live! So instead let me ask:

What would you say he's doing when not getting on the ball, if not hiding? That the likes of Dembele, Wanyama, Dier, Modric, Parker, Huddlestone and Palacios weren't doing?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We haven't had the what makes a player world class debate for awhile.

Well in his case IMO it wasn’t ability as he showed it at times
It’s the age old issue of what’s in the head...

 

[harr1984]

I agree the stats don't prove he hides, but as you say they certainly prove that he gets on the ball less than all of our other central midfielders - including Winks, who also does the majority of his work deep. And I think it's unusual to have a central midfield pairing where one gets on the ball so little. E.g. in 16/17 Dembele and Wanyama's numbers were 64 and 59. In 15/16, Dier's and Dembele's were 57 and 55. In 11/12 Modric and Parker's were 71 and 63. In 09/10 Huddlestone's and Palacios' were 54 and 48. Compared to Winks and Sissoko's 68 and 46 this season - it's very unusual.

Personally I also see him multiple times per match pointing to a teammate to be passed to, rather than making space to receive a pass himself. Though I appreciate we're probably not going to agree on that without watching a match together and commenting on it live! So instead let me ask:

What would you say he's doing when not getting on the ball, if not hiding? That the likes of Dembele, Wanyama, Dier, Modric, Parker, Huddlestone and Palacios weren't doing?

Fair enough mate, but for me you’re trying to use stats to prove something that isn’t there. Winks is a tippy tappy passer who does lots of short passing so I’m not in the least bit surprised he averages far more. The only other playmaker who did lots of tippy tappy passing from that selection is Modric and his passing was far higher than Parker’s according to your stats. If you have playmakers in your team the instructions will be get the ball to them as frequently as possible, but if you want to believe it’s because Sissoko is hiding then fair enough, but he really isn’t.....

 

[parklane1]

Jenas would have been world class if he had the meteorology

I do agree, he had all the quality/skills to be one of the best but never had the drive to produce in enough.

 

[elltrev]

Fair enough mate, but for me you’re trying to use stats to prove something that isn’t there. Winks is a tippy tappy passer who does lots of short passing so I’m not in the least bit surprised he averages far more. The only other playmaker who did lots of tippy tappy passing from that selection is Modric and his passing was far higher than Parker’s according to your stats. If you have playmakers in your team the instructions will be get the ball to them as frequently as possible, but if you want to believe it’s because Sissoko is hiding then fair enough, but he really isn’t.....

EDIT: Just to be clear, I only try to use stats to support what I think I've seen with my own eyes, and only in a (seemingly always unsuccessful!) attempt to break what is otherwise an inevitable deadlock in discussion.

And it feels to me like you're trying to discount stats to prove something that isn't there. E.g. You say Modric's passing numbers are 'far higher' than Parker's, whereas in reality it's a difference of 8 vs a difference of 22 for Winks and Sissoko. And the fact is that Sissoko's number of passes is the lowest of those 10 CMs I mentioned.

Do you feel more comfortable with the language 'doesn't make enough effort to make himself available to his teammates'? If not I guess we'll just have to leave it there and agree to disagree, even though to me the evidence is undeniable!

 

[Bullet]

They don't utilise players of similar limited skillsets. Who are are you thinking of?

Milner, Rakitic, Delph, Paulinho, Mascherano, Song, Coutinho

Trolling much galeforce? Don't be silly.

Sissoko has the same skill level as someone like Wimmer, but is playing in midfield, so it really stands out that he cannot reliably shoot, pass nor control the ball.

 

[braineclipse]

EDIT: Just to be clear, I only try to use stats to support what I think I've seen with my own eyes, and only in a (seemingly always unsuccessful!) attempt to break what is otherwise an inevitable deadlock in discussion.

And it feels to me like you're trying to discount stats to prove something that isn't there. E.g. You say Modric's passing numbers are 'far higher' than Parker's, whereas in reality it's a difference of 8 vs a difference of 22 for Winks and Sissoko. And the fact is that Sissoko's number of passes is the lowest of those 10 CMs I mentioned.

Do you feel more comfortable with the language 'doesn't make enough effort to make himself available to his teammates'? If not I guess we'll just have to leave it there and agree to disagree, even though to me the evidence is undeniable!

EDIT: Just to be clear, I only try to use stats to support what I think I've seen with my own eyes, and only in a (seemingly always unsuccessful!) attempt to break what is otherwise an inevitable deadlock in discussion.

And it feels to me like you're trying to discount stats to prove something that isn't there. E.g. You say Modric's passing numbers are 'far higher' than Parker's, whereas in reality it's a difference of 8 vs a difference of 22 for Winks and Sissoko. And the fact is that Sissoko's number of passes is the lowest of those 10 CMs I mentioned.

Do you feel more comfortable with the language 'doesn't make enough effort to make himself available to his teammates'? If not I guess we'll just have to leave it there and agree to disagree, even though to me the evidence is undeniable!

Not sure it's a question of effort.

I think he rightly thinks that him receiving the ball in under pressure or in tight situations frequently would be bad for the team and him. We're all better off with him not showing for the ball in situations where others do, and should.

For me Mourinho got it right when he essentially said that he's not a central midfielder. Perhaps Mourinho has since changed his mind, impossible to know. I hope he hasn't.

 

[elltrev]

Not sure it's a question of effort.

I think he rightly thinks that him receiving the ball in under pressure or in tight situations frequently would be bad for the team and him. We're all better off with him not showing for the ball in situations where others do, and should.

For me Mourinho got it right when he essentially said that he's not a central midfielder. Perhaps Mourinho has since changed his mind, impossible to know. I hope he hasn't.

Yeah when I said he doesn't make enough effort, I didn't mean to suggest it's because he's lazy. I agree it's because he (arguably rightly) doesn't have enough confidence in his ability on the ball. And sounds like we agree that that trait is a major flaw to have in a central midifelder!

 

[Bishop]

Not sure it's a question of effort.

I think he rightly thinks that him receiving the ball in under pressure or in tight situations frequently would be bad for the team and him. We're all better off with him not showing for the ball in situations where others do, and should.

For me Mourinho got it right when he essentially said that he's not a central midfielder. Perhaps Mourinho has since changed his mind, impossible to know. I hope he hasn't.

Imagine playing a whole CM that you shouldn't actually pass the ball to in midfield. [emoji2367]

 

[Moby]

Imagine playing a whole CM that you shouldn't actually pass the ball to in midfield. [emoji2367]

George Graham made that dream come true...

 

[Baleforce]

Klopp is still doing it

 

[thfcsteff]

Imagine playing a whole CM that you shouldn't actually pass the ball to in midfield. [emoji2367]

We can only dream of a 4-3-3 with Dier, Holjberg and Sissoko...

 

[thfcsteff]

George Graham made that dream come true...

In fairness, Davis and Roecastle were both good players (ouch that hurt though)...

 

[Moby]

In fairness, Davis and Roecastle were both good players (ouch that hurt though)...

I’m sure they were.

But our version was; Leonhardsen - Sherwood - Freund - Clemence.

A midfield 4 based on just getting in the way, never passing forward, and creativity was served by waiting for the opposition to get bored and make a mistake.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I’m sure they were.

But our version was; Leonhardsen - Sherwood - Freund - Clemence.

A midfield 4 based on just getting in the way, never passing forward, and creativity was served by waiting for the opposition to get bored and make a mistake.

That's nice. Steff had completely erased that insipid period of our history....and you go and unlock the door of misery.

 

[Moby]

That's nice. Steff had completely erased that insipid period of our history....and you go and unlock the door of misery.

Here to help mate, here to help...

 

[Yiddo]

We sold him for £30m yet?

 

[Bishop]

We sold him for £30m yet?

If you change that figure to 13m it's more likely.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m sure they were.

But our version was; Leonhardsen - Sherwood - Freund - Clemence.

A midfield 4 based on just getting in the way, never passing forward, and creativity was served by waiting for the opposition to get bored and make a mistake.

Fudge me trickyricky was partially right, I had managed to totally forget about this fudging brick state of affairs...until now!!!!! But I have to admit, I laughed and laughed loudly! I SUPPORTED them once! Because I had to?!!!

I mean, Sherwood was the "creative" option? He did one fudging thing in our shirt and that was score against the goons. Leonhardsen was just brick, Clemence outrageously overrated and Freundy was loved because he was absolutely mental!