Moussa Sissoko

[milo]

And Lamela. That's 4 players injured or not match fit.

I think that you need to include Alderweireld in that list. Him being out has meant that we have switched formations played more midfielders.

 

[milo]

Lets be straight - "He is terrible" is obviously meant as "He is terrible relative to the players around him". We all know if he came to the GG 5 a side game he would absolutely destroy us single handed. Ive seen tales of rather industrial defenders at this level playing with Plebs and looking like Ronaldinho. When we talk about players quality it is of course relative, and really shouldnt need spelling out every time.

I remember Barnetspur telling me about playing five a side against Vega. Vega played up front, didn't get out of second gear and ran rings around them.

 

[harr1984]

I remember Barnetspur telling me about playing five a side against Vega. Vega played up front, didn't get out of second gear and ran rings around them.

Always thought Vega would make a better forward than he did defender for us....

 

[milo]

Always thought Vega would make a better forward than he did defender for us....

They were joking about it after the game and Vega said that he didn't get many opportunities to show what he could do further forward for us.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I remember Barnetspur telling me about playing five a side against Vega. Vega played up front, didn't get out of second gear and ran rings around them.

Sounds familiar, could even be what I was thinking about.

Its true, even the worst footballer in the Premiership would be on another level compared to any of us lot...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I genuinely do not know why we even bought him. Given the hour, and our supposed interest in other targets, it really just looks like a panic buy to me.

I certainly think the player we got is not the player we thought we bought. It smacks of poor homework on our part. And, lets be honest, not every transfer we make is a gem *cough*stambouli/njie/fazio...*cough*

You keep talking about France, but I just dont really see the connection. While I respect Deschamps is a good coach, International football is sub standard, and Frances needs and wants are nothing like ours. Maybe he is ideal for what they need? Maybe perfect? I dont see how it discredits criticism of his use/performance for Spurs.

Lets be straight - "He is terrible" is obviously meant as "He is terrible relative to the players around him". We all know if he came to the GG 5 a side game he would absolutely destroy us single handed. Ive seen tales of rather industrial defenders at this level playing with Plebs and looking like Ronaldinho. When we talk about players quality it is of course relative, and really shouldnt need spelling out every time.

Why is he still at the club? Honestly, I think, because we havent been able to offload him. We paid a lot of money, and Levy doesnt take a loss well, so he is probably quite difficult to move on. Particularly as he hasnt exactly shone in such a way other teams will covet him. The whole move has been a dud, and the club are as much to blame as the player. If not more, they should have known better.

He is, at best, utility for us. He isnt a performer, hes a "can do a job" (and that he does rather inconsistently). As Ive said, were our other midfielders actually fit this season I honestly think Sissoko would have been seen maybe a handful of times. Thats not agenda and bias, thats just the reality as I see it. With Wanyama available every week, for what reason would Sissoko have been chosen ahead of him?

Why is he playing? (in place of academy players) Well, to his credit, he clearly is trying. He works really hard. I dont doubt he is doing his absolute best in training. I would imagine Poch sees him as a mature player, dedicated and experienced, and values that above the like of Onomah who has shown no ability to do it on the field for us. Sissoko will at least go out and play, and it seems try to follow instruction.

Where I dont agree with you is in your conclusion. Its not a group think, ganging up on him, making him a scape goat. Its frustration, being vented. He has NEVER been better than just average, and he has often been much poorer. His faults are consistently displayed. To see it again and again is just frustrating beyond belief.

While he is doing his best - I dont think anyone has questioned his effort etc - he simply isnt at the level of his peers. By a distance. And it shows. And my GHod is that annoying. Especially when you know how things could be with Wanyama (for example) in his stead.

And much of the criticism just isnt outsized. Repetitive? yes. Flamboyant? yes. Wrong? Actually no.

I dont think anyone desires to jump on him. They do because the same issues are there again and again.

And I think the like of yourself arent helping either. Take the match thread, Scara made a point of posting where he was doing something badly. Why? Because, before the game, someone was in there calling out "Poch picked him so what do you make of that?!" in a pre-emptive "I told you so". So Scara responded, illustrating his issues with Sissoko through the match. THEN he gets accused of running a campaign of outsized criticism...

Trying to convince me he isnt that bad by dismissing all the things he cant do as "you shoudnt expect that from him" just isnt really an argument. Especially when even our defenders our better equipped in most instances. That, IMO, is outsized defence of him.

If he had a great game in him then I would be frustrated at his inconsistency. As with the like of Alli this season. The reason they get slack is because in general they are more often good to great than poor, they do get criticised though. If Sissoko was in this mould he would get the same breaks. Instead he is poor to average every game. This is why the criticism doesnt compare, because the performances dont.

As Ive said, its tinternet 101, these things start to be informed by prejudice based on an assumed point of view, and before you know it youre arguing against what you think someone means without even reading the post.

Now I dont deny it sucks that Sissoko is taking so much flack. Its not good, and Im not really in favour of such negativity. The problem is, I also cant deny he really has been poor and is a problem in the side when he plays. Despite the good he can do, his net contribution is negative IMO.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said there. I do agree he was a poorly researched buy. I think the idea was to have a Mane equivalent who could play direct in the attacking positions and run at the center, because Poch always likes to attack the center. That was the idea...it just didn't work. He is a class below our other attacking players when it comes to technique and attacking ability. I'm totally with you there. France...I'm not too concerned about, it doesn't really prove anything either way, except, they have a heck of a lot of midfielders they could call up even though the standard is lower. They chose him because he has something to offer.

I just will always come down on the side of the argument that most games, his mistakes get way amplified, and other players don't have to suffer that same treatment. The argument then comes that other players have done well before, so they get excused, but I would argue there have been plenty of games when Sissoko has done what is required too. I think in most squads you have a couple of players that are consistently 6.5-7/10 players, because their job is to do something for the team, to focus on others shining, and to focus on a plan to the letter. Most of the time, Sissoko does this. Objectively, I see him as never getting above a 7, but never really dipping below a 6 either this season - other than Leceister away when his passing and contribution did stop us scoring and progressing up the pitch as we would like. And that's for me the curse that these 'team players' (Deschamps calls him a solider which is another good description) have to live by. They will only at a maximum look just above average in terms of performance compared to others that will grab the headlines and get the 8-9/10 ratings, but if the whole team looks rubbish, they aren't going to look any better and will be dragged down because of it.

So that's how I see his role. In much the same way Jenas had a similar role and was never really appreciated, because people were waiting for him to become our Gerrard, I think people are still looking at Sissoko and expecting this £30M Mane esque player to break out before they recognise a contribution, but we both agree that he was a poor buy for that kind of role. But solid team players - Darren Fletcher at United, Elneny at Arsenal, I would say Drinkwater with Leceister - they never collect the plaudits. They don't deal in hollywood passes, assists or even thumping tackles and so they will never really get the crowd off their feet. Occasionally Drinkwater can ping a pass just as Sissoko will occasionally go on a pitch length run, but broadly speaking these players are there to make sure other members of the team perform, and they are supposed to be selfless. And because of that, they don't hit 8/10, but I don't really consistently see them drop below 6/10 either. The tough thing is, when the whole team is playing badly, they look bad because they will perform to the average level of the team. So the key will be as to whether we win more than we drop points with a 'soldier' type in the team. Sissoko played most of the game in both matches vs Madrid, he's played in games where we've dominated teams away from home like Everton and West Ham this season, and we are well positioned to achieve top 4 based on the last couple of seasons points runs compared to the first 19 games.

You may disagree with how I see the value of a 'solider' type, but that's going to be the key difference between us. Because where I see a player doing his job (and yes, us making the most of him because he was a failed £30M purchase), plenty of others see him as not doing anything. But I will always come back to the point that Poch thinks he is doing a job enough to consistently trust him in big games. So when I watch a game and I see Sissoko do nothing really wrong - and nothing so obviously right like a crunching tackle or an amazing slide rule no look pass - I am assuming (but don't have certainty because I haven't been briefed on Poch's tactical plans) that he is doing his job for the team. Shape, defensive awareness, physicality, keeping it simple, not losing possession, allowing others to flourish. I can accept we will disagree on this point but that is how I see it. So when I see Sissoko get outsized criticism for minor mistakes and I think 'hang on a min, Dier basically just played a through ball to their striker and sent them away on goal' or 'Dembele has done absolutely nothing today' I am comparing them objectively on that game. I don't think, in my personal opinion, that Sissoko deserves it because he's always bad, because I think he's most of the time doing his job and playing to his limits, and teams need a player like that. But Sissoko takes the jokes and the criticism way more than any other player, when other players give the ball away more, or miss easy chances, or fail to stop danger, more than he does. Sometimes Sissoko does do those bad things too, but most of the time he is a solid hand in the team, IMO.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Or to put it another way, I think fans gravitate towards positions and players where they can easily relate to their contributions. We have all either been a target man or a poacher when we've played Sunday League. We've got our hard bastards in central midfield and we've got our goalscoring number 8, and we've got the quick guys that we put on the wing. We've got the tall people that can't play at the back and we've got the small people that can't play at full back. These 'coaches players', 'soldier' types are ALWAYS the most under-appreciated by fans and there is always a debate around their usefulness, and yet professional managers still pick them constantly. You don't really have this kind of role in a team a fan would relate to because the tactical level isn't as high. I still remember the 'Carrick, what does he do?' thread on here when he first got into our side after Santini benched him, and it wasn't really until Jol's first full season that the opinion swang to actually really appreciate him. And he's not a perfect comparison, but at the time people expected their holding midfielders to be hard-tackling Makelele types, and plenty of people in that thread and other Spurs fans everywhere didn't see what Carrick was doing. But then Spanish football's influence seeped into our game and more people got it. But for a time, not many people related to Carrick.

Sissoko is a good attacking player for a side that plays on the counter but he isn't a good attacking player for us, so we've had to get him into a role that focuses on what he can do and masks his weaknesses. In thinking back to the Jol days it got me thinking of another - Teemu Tainio. Not a hard tackling holder. Not a goalscorer. Not a massive assister. A decent passer but not really a long range passer. He was just fundamentally a team player that enabled others to shine. Different physical attributes to Sissoko but they are playing something of a similar role.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You may disagree with how I see the value of a 'solider' type, but that's going to be the key difference between us.

You see this is the odd thing. Were this post made 6 years ago, about Jenas, I would be right in your corner.

I LOVE understated players. I see a lot of value in the team player. I really liked Jenas and think he was massively under valued.

I agree completely with your view on what you describe as a "soldier" type. Genuinely, no argument from me at all.

Where I disagree, and suspect we will never agree, is that Sissoko is of that ilk. Sissoko wishes he could be as good as Jenas.

It still seems, to me, like you have done a hell of a job convincing yourself of some small merit in Sissoko being of far more value than it is.

He is, IMO, just not that good. Not understated and mis understood, just not very capable.

I dont fault him for effort, I fault him for ability. He is simply not good enough to function at the level this team requires.

It doesnt matter that he is doing his best, as commendable as that is, if his best simply isnt enough.

And I see fault in the intangibles with him, as Scara said yesterday - its in the what he doesnt do, more than what he does.

When he doesnt move the ball quickly. When he doesnt see the pass. When he doesnt take the right position. When he doesnt track his man.

All Players have faults and make mistakes. Nobody here things Dier is perfect at all, he will miss place passes, he will rooster up - but he will also get those intangibles right far more than wrong.

Sissoko is a player who has limited success with the tangibles, and is very poor in the intangibles too, if you see what I mean?

And thats the difference. He isnt a reliable workhorse, or an understated player, he is out of his depth.

 

[milo]

I think that AVB would've loved Sissoko. He had a weakness for athletes.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Or to put it another way, I think fans gravitate towards positions and players where they can easily relate to their contributions. We have all either been a target man or a poacher when we've played Sunday League. We've got our hard bastards in central midfield and we've got our goalscoring number 8, and we've got the quick guys that we put on the wing. We've got the tall people that can't play at the back and we've got the small people that can't play at full back. These 'coaches players', 'soldier' types are ALWAYS the most under-appreciated by fans and there is always a debate around their usefulness, and yet professional managers still pick them constantly. You don't really have this kind of role in a team a fan would relate to because the tactical level isn't as high. I still remember the 'Carrick, what does he do?' thread on here when he first got into our side after Santini benched him, and it wasn't really until Jol's first full season that the opinion swang to actually really appreciate him. And he's not a perfect comparison, but at the time people expected their holding midfielders to be hard-tackling Makelele types, and plenty of people in that thread and other Spurs fans everywhere didn't see what Carrick was doing. But then Spanish football's influence seeped into our game and more people got it. But for a time, not many people related to Carrick.

Again, preaching to the choir. I love those players. You know who one of my favourites was growing up? Paul McGrath. I absolutely loved watching that guy play. I have never been drawn to the flashy players.

And that Carrick thread? I was in there fighting his corner. fudging loved that player and am still gutted he left even today (10 years now?)

I really feel, fundamentally, you and I are very similar in these appreciations. Which is why I just dont understand what it is you see in Sissoko.

Which is why I feel your arguing more against the idea of the injustice of his treatment than actually for the player. Like I said, its like a campaign.

Sissoko is a good attacking player for a side that plays on the counter but he isn't a good attacking player for us, so we've had to get him into a role that focuses on what he can do and masks his weaknesses. In thinking back to the Jol days it got me thinking of another - Teemu Tainio. Not a hard tackling holder. Not a goalscorer. Not a massive assister. A decent passer but not really a long range passer. He was just fundamentally a team player that enabled others to shine. Different physical attributes to Sissoko but they are playing something of a similar role.

And, AGAIN, (!!), I loved Tainio. Quality player, loved what he did. I see no comparison.

Though I certainly agree, give Sissoko to David Moyes and he will suddenly look a much better player. He simply isnt right for us. And as limited and frustrating as he is, thats all on the club, not him.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think that AVB would've loved Sissoko. He had a weakness for athletes.

Hard working, slow, unimaginative, back and sideways passing football - I think Sissoko would have thrived under him too.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You see this is the odd thing. Were this post made 6 years ago, about Jenas, I would be right in your corner.

I LOVE understated players. I see a lot of value in the team player. I really liked Jenas and think he was massively under valued.

I agree completely with your view on what you describe as a "soldier" type. Genuinely, no argument from me at all.

Where I disagree, and suspect we will never agree, is that Sissoko is of that ilk. Sissoko wishes he could be as good as Jenas.

It still seems, to me, like you have done a hell of a job convincing yourself of some small merit in Sissoko being of far more value than it is.

He is, IMO, just not that good. Not understated and mis understood, just not very capable.

I dont fault him for effort, I fault him for ability. He is simply not good enough to function at the level this team requires.

It doesnt matter that he is doing his best, as commendable as that is, if his best simply isnt enough.

And I see fault in the intangibles with him, as Scara said yesterday - its in the what he doesnt do, more than what he does.

When he doesnt move the ball quickly. When he doesnt see the pass. When he doesnt take the right position. When he doesnt track his man.

All Players have faults and make mistakes. Nobody here things Dier is perfect at all, he will miss place passes, he will rooster up - but he will also get those intangibles right far more than wrong.

Sissoko is a player who has limited success with the tangibles, and is very poor in the intangibles too, if you see what I mean?

And thats the difference. He isnt a reliable workhorse, or an understated player, he is out of his depth.

And that's where I can happily agree to disagree. I think we refashioned him as a workhorse because he was a failed purchase, and I think he is pretty darn good defensively, most of the time. (I know Scara has been pushing this angle over the last couple of days but I don't have the energy to go back over games and debate it with someone so entrenched in their views, so again I'm happy to agree to disagree on that point too). I also think he moves to the ball quickly enough most of the time because most of the time he is recognising his job is to keep it simple and get someone better on the ball as quickly as possible.

I don't even think Sissoko is so valuable to us that we can't do without him. Poch happily benches him as much as he happily starts him. So I completely think we made the most out of a failed purchase. But if I look at his performances this season (and, to be honest, last season in the second half of the season when he managed to get on the pitch), and compare it objectively to other players, what their contribution is, I don't see Sissoko falling massively short. We go to a massively in form Burnley and they I think have one shot at us all game, and Sissoko starts in the pivot in midfield...he simply must have been doing something that game, if you see what I mean?

But yes, happy to agree to disagree. I think we know now where the big difference is in our opinions, and that's ok.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You're right Nayim, it is arguing against injustice of treatment, because I believe he has value. But as I said, happy to agree to disagree.

 

[milo]

You're right Nayim, it is arguing against injustice of treatment, because I believe he has value. But as I said, happy to agree to disagree.

If he wasn't a Spurs player, would you be making the case for us to sign him?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I will contest though - this whole idea of there being a group think against him etc - its just not on. And not true, IMO.

I think people have perfectly valid complaints with him, even if you dont agree. Of course things get heated or exaggerated, people dont always speak literally or calmly - but I honestly dont see it as villagers with pitch forks and it does nobody any favours to treat it as such.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If he wasn't a Spurs player, would you be making the case for us to sign him?

Nope. Partly because I won't watch other teams enough to have an idea of their tactics to the point where I could evaluate whether a soldier type from another team is what we need for us, and partly because I don't really care for transfer business unless it's something like Sess where it's so obviously a good fit for us that I'd be gutted if we didn't pull if off.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I will contest though - this whole idea of there being a group think against him etc - its just not on. And not true, IMO.

I think people have perfectly valid complaints with him, even if you dont agree. Of course things get heated or exaggerated, people dont always speak literally or calmly - but I honestly dont see it as villagers with pitch forks and it does nobody any favours to treat it as such.

Valid complaints, sure. But people love to make a joke at his expense in the stands and then all laugh about it. It happens. That's all I mean. It's become this thing where even a site like Football 365 will put as a subheading in a news article 'even Sissoko played well' or something like that. Probably wasn't even written by a Spurs fan. But it's established that he's rubbish and anything Sissoko does it looked at through that lens.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Valid complaints, sure. But people love to make a joke at his expense in the stands and then all laugh about it. It happens. That's all I mean. It's become this thing where even a site like Football 365 will put as a subheading in a news article 'even Sissoko played well' or something like that. Probably wasn't even written by a Spurs fan. But it's established that he's rubbish and anything Sissoko does it looked at through that lens.

Do you not think then, that maybe there is something to it?

Or is absolutely everybody wrong?

I tend to stop and think when everyone tells me Im wrong about something. And my wife will tell you, Im always right ;O)

 

[milo]

I'm in a halfway position on this. I agree that Sissoko is the worst footballer in the first team squad by some distance but I also think that some of the criticism is a little overboard.

He has done a job this season and his performances are much improved on last year. I think that given the inflation in transfer fees over the last 18 months, there is a fair chance that we can get our money back on him.

 

[Bullet]

A couple of years ago against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, last game of the season, Spurs pushed forwards, Sissoko picked up the ball and sprinted down the left wing, surged forwards, got into the box and collapsed under a challenge. Levy thought "oh yes, I like his drive, reminds me of Bale, sign him up". He was wrong.

I was watching Cheatski play Arse last night - Moses took a shot with his wrong foot and scuffed it slowly wide... it was awful, no balance, no technique, and it made me wonder if Sissoko actually has a stronger foot, or if both feet are his weaker foot?