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Moussa Sissoko

Nayim, I've said repeatedly in this thread that I'm not saying Sissoko has been anything above a 7/10 really. But I do think he has been decent. To not even give him that, and at the same time bringing up how bad he was last season to prove otherwise, is incredibly harsh IMO.

He was decent in the last three games, also at Everton, also against Barnsley, also against Juve in pre season. Not great at all against Swansea but then nobody on the team was.

I really haven't got overboard to defend him by saying he's been decent. I've just repeatedly came back to it because the criticism one of our own players faces verges on the ridiculous and most fans can now at least acknowledge his improvement and get behind him. Yes he was bad last season. Yes he is a physical player, not a technical one. Those things won't change. But how about getting behind someone that plays for us rather than criticising him for things he can't change, particularly when he's clearly putting the effort in? How about not going to extreme lengths to pick out minor mistakes in otherwise good games (which every player does) or picking out his form from a year ago to justify outdated criticism?

He is our player, and he has been nowhere near as bad as the people that are 'against' him (for want of a less divisive phrase) have made out in this thread. Last season? Sure, he was terrible. But that shouldn't preclude him from a fair shot at support, particularly when one of the key parts of our recent success has been one club pulling in the same direction, including the fans. You aren't paragons of an elite, sophisticated level of football if you dislike a physical player. He isn't going to change, and both his club manager and national coach seem to think he is doing well. Time to accept that.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Nayim, I've said repeatedly in this thread that I'm not saying Sissoko has been anything above a 7/10 really. But I do think he has been decent. To not even give him that, and at the same time bringing up how bad he was last season to prove otherwise, is incredibly harsh IMO.

He was decent in the last three games, also at Everton, also against Barnsley, also against Juve in pre season. Not great at all against Swansea but then nobody on the team was.

I really haven't got overboard to defend him by saying he's been decent. I've just repeatedly came back to it because the criticism one of our own players faces verges on the ridiculous and most fans can now at least acknowledge his improvement and get behind him. Yes he was bad last season. Yes he is a physical player, not a technical one. Those things won't change. But how about getting behind someone that plays for us rather than criticising him for things he can't change, particularly when he's clearly putting the effort in? How about not going to extreme lengths to pick out minor mistakes in otherwise good games (which every player does) or picking out his form from a year ago to justify outdated criticism?

He is our player, and he has been nowhere near as bad as the people that are 'against' him (for want of a less divisive phrase) have made out in this thread. Last season? Sure, he was terrible. But that shouldn't preclude him from a fair shot at support, particularly when one of the key parts of our recent success has been one club pulling in the same direction, including the fans. You aren't paragons of an elite, sophisticated level of football if you dislike a physical player. He isn't going to change, and both his club manager and national coach seem to think he is doing well. Time to accept that.
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Can I please point out that I'm not against him, I just find him funny.

(Funny like a clown, like he's there to fudging amuse me).
 
You are bending and stretching a lot to build an argument. And honestly I just dont think you have much to work with in the first place.

Who doesnt support him? Ive not seen one person NOT want him to succeed, only be honest about how he is/has been. Personally if he starts hitting form and really contributing I would be delighted. But I am not so blinded by wishful thinking that I will convince myself he has been in any way "decent".

Last seasons performances are entirely relevant, because they provide context to this seasons.

Last season he was genuinely awful. The last few games he has actually looked like he might one day (soon?) work in the team.

In context of last season? Well he looks like Messi just by virtue of looking like he isnt less useful than a training cone.

As has been mentioned, were those the performances of an established player it would be somewhere between poor and average.

HOWEVER, while that is massive improvement by his own low standards, that doesnt actually equate to "good" now. Just "better than he was".

Making an effort isnt good enough. Its the bare minimum. Its a basic requirement. He's making an effort? Great! So he should be, its not something to applaud.

His touch has been terrible. His vision has been non existent. His movement poor. He has regularly managed to pass to nowhere/give the ball away/tangle up his own feet... He has just been very poor in the absolute basics for a long time.

"He is a physical player not technical" doesnt explain or excuse this, these are fundamentals he has been explicitly poor in. We have youth players better than him in the basics. We have defenders with far more vision and technique.

BUT - he is improving. The last couple of games in particular he seems more confident, has been getting his head up more, has been trying to do the right thing at the right time (with mixed success) and I am delighted to see that upward trend.

Lets not get carried away though, he has a long way to go to be on a par with his team mates - let alone any better than that.
 
harr1984 said:
Exactly what you have done - he never has been as bad as youre saying, and never will be. Lets be honest, might aswell just end this debate. Those that for some weird reason cant acknowledge hes been decent this season and useful at worst, arent gonig to budge so might aswell just leave it there no?
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Any unbiased fan will admit he has NOT been as bad as a few are trying to make out, maybe some of those fans were not around in the 90's when the team included a few who were a lot worse then Sissoko. But as i said earlier its a waste of breath trying to debate with those who are unlikely to change their minds about some of the over the top slagging they have been going with.
 
parklane1 said:
Any unbiased fan will admit he has NOT been as bad as a few are trying to make out, maybe some of those fans were not around in the 90's when the team included a few who were a lot worse then Sissoko. But as i said earlier its a waste of breath trying to debate with those who are unlikely to change their minds about some of the over the top slagging they have been going with.
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If we are holding on to the tethers of the 90's and can't see that we have moved on leaps and bounds ...

Why get rid of njie etc they would have slot right in.

I think the naysayers are not convinced that his talent is seen.

He is doing a job but that doesnt mean that he is good enough.
 
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I have heard no one say he is a great player, but to call him what some have done is stupid at best. But we are going round in circles.
 
parklane1 said:
Any unbiased fan will admit he has NOT been as bad as a few are trying to make out, maybe some of those fans were not around in the 90's when the team included a few who were a lot worse then Sissoko. But as i said earlier its a waste of breath trying to debate with those who are unlikely to change their minds about some of the over the top slagging they have been going with.
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"Some people are biased. Everyone else agrees with me"
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
You are bending and stretching a lot to build an argument. And honestly I just dont think you have much to work with in the first place.

Who doesnt support him? Ive not seen one person NOT want him to succeed, only be honest about how he is/has been. Personally if he starts hitting form and really contributing I would be delighted. But I am not so blinded by wishful thinking that I will convince myself he has been in any way "decent".

Last seasons performances are entirely relevant, because they provide context to this seasons.

Last season he was genuinely awful. The last few games he has actually looked like he might one day (soon?) work in the team.

In context of last season? Well he looks like Messi just by virtue of looking like he isnt less useful than a training cone.

As has been mentioned, were those the performances of an established player it would be somewhere between poor and average.

HOWEVER, while that is massive improvement by his own low standards, that doesnt actually equate to "good" now. Just "better than he was".

Making an effort isnt good enough. Its the bare minimum. Its a basic requirement. He's making an effort? Great! So he should be, its not something to applaud.

His touch has been terrible. His vision has been non existent. His movement poor. He has regularly managed to pass to nowhere/give the ball away/tangle up his own feet... He has just been very poor in the absolute basics for a long time.

"He is a physical player not technical" doesnt explain or excuse this, these are fundamentals he has been explicitly poor in. We have youth players better than him in the basics. We have defenders with far more vision and technique.

BUT - he is improving. The last couple of games in particular he seems more confident, has been getting his head up more, has been trying to do the right thing at the right time (with mixed success) and I am delighted to see that upward trend.

Lets not get carried away though, he has a long way to go to be on a par with his team mates - let alone any better than that.
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I'm sorry but I'm just not having it. No one is saying he is Messi incarnate this season, but is completely fair to say he has been decent. And no, not 'if Alli performed like that it would be a terrible performance', he has just been purely decent. Last season he was awful, no one is denying it.

Your line on his touch, vision, movement etc is all related to last season. This season you simply can't level any of that at him. (Unless you're holding him to the standards of an excellent technical player rather than the physical player that he is).

Again, NO ONE IS SAYING HE HAS BEEN OUTSTANDING. Simply decent. To deny that, and talk in a way in which if it was to him would be unbelievably patronizing, is just....ugh. I'm not stretching whatsoever to say he's been decent. It's really not that difficult to say that when most fans are actually on side with that now. He hasn't 'been more confident' in the last few games, he's been performing much better since Juve. Shock horror, another player who has gotten the benefit of a Poch pre-season is now actually performing. Probably just a lesson to hold off on digging down into a player full tilt until they've had that opportunity, no?
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I'm sorry but I'm just not having it. No one is saying he is Messi incarnate this season, but is completely fair to say he has been decent. And no, not 'if Alli performed like that it would be a terrible performance', he has just been purely decent. Last season he was awful, no one is denying it.

Your line on his touch, vision, movement etc is all related to last season. This season you simply can't level any of that at him. (Unless you're holding him to the standards of an excellent technical player rather than the physical player that he is).

Again, NO ONE IS SAYING HE HAS BEEN OUTSTANDING. Simply decent. To deny that, and talk in a way in which if it was to him would be unbelievably patronizing, is just....ugh. I'm not stretching whatsoever to say he's been decent. It's really not that difficult to say that when most fans are actually on side with that now. He hasn't 'been more confident' in the last few games, he's been performing much better since Juve. Shock horror, another player who has gotten the benefit of a Poch pre-season is now actually performing. Probably just a lesson to hold off on digging down into a player full tilt until they've had that opportunity, no?
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So if the Alli comparison is unfair, how should we compare him? Which players can we look at on the ball and say "Sissoko and that player are of similar skill levels"?

Because if we can't, doesn't that suggest he's not up to the required standard? Isn't it fair to at least expect all of our outfield players to be better footballers than our goalkeeper?
 
scaramanga said:
So if the Alli comparison is unfair, how should we compare him? Which players can we look at on the ball and say "Sissoko and that player are of similar skill levels"?

Because if we can't, doesn't that suggest he's not up to the required standard? Isn't it fair to at least expect all of our outfield players to be better footballers than our goalkeeper?
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That's why you are the lord ... shame about the pink coat
 
Well it’s obvious the manager wants him as he keeps playing him (although that may be for comedic purposes) but I still think he is awful
 
scaramanga said:
So if the Alli comparison is unfair, how should we compare him? Which players can we look at on the ball and say "Sissoko and that player are of similar skill levels"?

Because if we can't, doesn't that suggest he's not up to the required standard? Isn't it fair to at least expect all of our outfield players to be better footballers than our goalkeeper?
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Compare him to Alli and everyone else. The point is, he has fitted in, he has been playing to a decent standard, he has been contributing. But assess him for what he is. All footballers can make mistakes, but he's been more positive than negative this year.

Deschamps says he's been playing well. Poch wants him here. Time to admit you just don't like physical players and that's that. Is he contributing to a winning team though? Yes he is. Does he deserve our support? Absolutely yes.

I'll tell you what really ticks me off. At the Dortmund game, Sissoko came on and an 18 year old kid sitting behind me though he was absolutely hilaaaaaaaarious because every time he passed the ball, this kid would say 'great ball Sissoko!!!' In a massively sarcastic manner expecting the rest of his block to laugh along with him. Just like...wtf. Prioritise a few laughs and back slapping over supporting your team. Continue to perpetuate the negative cloud around a player that has actually improved, even if you haven't caught up to the reality yet.

As I said, we've done well the last 3 years because the whole club is pulling in one direction, including fans. Yes he cost 30M. Yes he was terrible last year. But people are drastically being overly harsh on everything he does this year for some reason I just don't understand. It's either not liking physical players or it's refusing to admit they were wrong when a player has settled in and is now performing beyond their expectations. Either way, we aren't stretching to say he is doing pretty well now.
 
NoLimits01 said:
Well it’s obvious the manager wants him as he keeps playing him (although that may be for comedic purposes) but I still think he is awful
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Kind of an important point in a logical debate though isn't it? That the manager wants him? That the obviously successful and universally adored manager wants him? Unless he is blind to something that some people here can see, that he can't?
 
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