Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[fernadez]

Pochettino mouthpiece blaming the chairman, absolving Poch, and saying he was thinking of going but decided to do us a favour and stick around? Not sure its a good article at all.

Its PR. Either "heres why you should get behind him" or "heres why he left and its not his fault"

Doublely disappointing because I hoped that Poch would be taking a more introspective look at things over the last few weeks. This article is just more of the same thing he's been spouting off, but just this time with his hands clean.

All this 'doing us a favour by staying' narrative is taking the tinkle. People dig out Jose for what he says but I don't see how this is any less incendiary.

 

[harr1984]

Doublely disappointing because I hoped that Poch would be taking a more introspective look at things over the last few weeks. This article is just more of the same thing he's been spouting off, but just this time with his hands clean.

All this 'doing us a favour by staying' narrative is taking the tinkle. People dig out Jose for what he says but I don't see how this is any less incendiary.

He has been taking the tinkle with what he has been saying for quite some time, yet so many have been desperate to defend and make excuses for what he comes out with - I shudder to think what he would have to do for some on here to realise the sun doesn't shine out of his backside.

If the leader doesn't demonstrate ultimate commitment to the club, why on earth would the players....

 

[DaveT316]

Article is nonsense … opening statement

Effectively what we are seeing is the irrefutable decay of a squad that should have been recycled, reinvigorated, revitalised, a squad that has been allowed to drift into the footballing crisis it now finds itself in.

This is where I'm not understanding the kind of broad statement that players cannot play at a club for more than a certain length of time (statistical evidence actually suggest it's managers not player that have single club longevity issues)

- Hugo, Kane, Son, Lamela, Eriksen, Rose, Lucas, Davies, Dele, Dier, Aurier (11 first team players) are in or around the prime age for their careers
- Toby & Jan are the senior experienced players that for many years we begged to have in the team
- Winks, Sanchez, Foyth, Tangaga, N'Dombele, Lo Celso are all young, exciting potential, all already with international and PL experience and with exception of Tanganga & Lo Celso (PL)
- Sanchez, Aurier, Lucas, Foyth, N'dombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon are all players added more than half way into Poch's tenure, even if they haven't gotten as much playtime as expected, they are in and around squad.

I ask this again, does anyone believe that the above squad should lose 19 out of the last 41 games? would our fudging B team lose 19 out of 41?

And if Pochettino does go, which big name, knowing what they know, is going to be prepared to grasp this particular nettle?

Again, more flimflam ..

- Spurs has always paid managers well
- You think Jose has been sitting in our games because he likes the new stadium? or the press murmurs are without merit?
- Spurs is a great option, top 4, in CL, great facilities, a very good base team to work with and the knowledge that our ability to spend will go up
- Jose and Allegri are available, any upcoming manager will jump at the chance and we could probably tempt a few established ones from their current clubs.

This again is another one of those myths that ANY club allows a manager complete and free reign on who they want to buy at whatever price/wages (Pep and Zidane have both been told no on occasion by their clubs, Jose was told no at United)

In truth, everyone and every level at the club must take some share of the responsibility.

The one truth in the article, but here's the thing with responsibility, it's starts with the leader

- Levy has come out and said, we didn't get rid of all the players we wanted, we didn't get in all the player we wanted (he owns that)

What I'm missing is Poch saying "we have been on a brick run", "the players lack the right level of motivation/commitment", "we have been fudged over tactically repeatedly" and "it's my fudging job to change that right now" not in January, not when the magic fairy arrives, not when we recover our emotional wellbeing ...

Again, dog chasing it's tail arguement

- Either you believe that Poch has been wronged, unlucky, whatever and that squad listed above is so fudging bad (worse than Harry's team. etc) that losing close to 50% of our games is on par. In which case the crazy solution seems to be ok, the club is going to spend another 200M on players because the lot above are brick.
- Or you accept this team is horrendously underperforming for 10 months, and Poch needs to own that, try something fudging new (not a fudging diamond with overlapping FB's with the same fudging players that haven't been able to make it work for 10+ months) or move on ..

Or it’s somewhere in between these two options...

 

[Benny_Lad]

Pochettino mouthpiece blaming the chairman, absolving Poch, and saying he was thinking of going but decided to do us a favour and stick around? Not sure its a good article at all.

Its PR. Either "heres why you should get behind him" or "heres why he left and its not his fault"

I actually thought it was quite balanced and a 'calm down' to all the sack merchants. There is no quick fix and if it is a mouthpiece then Poch is giving more of a detailed view on the snippets he's given in the press. Fine with me.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Either you* think Poch should be doing better, or youve got a bunch of excuses for him.

I agree with you that he may as well push on with the changes and get the boys of the future playing. But I've also got a bunch (not millions) of excuses for why we are at this moment right now.

So no 'or' for me.

He may have thought that plugging along until January with the old guard was the best thing to do on balance.(hardly outrageous thinking) He needs to pivot and get some green shoots appearing.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I actually thought it was quite balanced and a 'calm down' to all the sack merchants. There is no quick fix and if it is a mouthpiece then Poch is giving more of a detailed view on the snippets he's given in the press. Fine with me.

I think its a hatchet job on Levy and setting Poch up as the victim. Each to their own I guess.

He needs to pivot and get some green shoots appearing.

Wont argue with that at all, its exactly the thing Ive been calling for.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think its a hatchet job on Levy and setting Poch up as the victim. Each to their own I guess.

I think people like us know far more than various hacks and pundits. We breathe this club. Every snippet we consume.

So much so that we can make our own judgement, and one thing that stands out is none of us are really gunning for anyone when dishing out the blame.

Much of where we are was predictable. It may not of happened BUT there was a fair chance things would come to a head due to the circumstances. Circumstances that I don't think we're born out of bad decision making. Outcomes may not have been as forecast, but as we have read, we are not always calling the shots.

MoPo needs to get the old MoJo back, I think he's bogged himself down, partly because he himself has had to accept things have all gone a bit slooowlly.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think Pochettino has dropped the ball, and really (REALLY) needs to get back on his game.

I think there are an abundance of factors leading to (and from) this.

And I dont hold any one person or thing responsible for it.

As Ive said though, regardless of whether or not something is his fault, as manager its up to Poch to deal with things and make the best of it.



This article though? I really see it in a negative light. The whole thing reads to me as PR for Poch, most likely at his request, distancing himself from the situation. Not what Id like to see.

Compare to the piece Dier just put out on the OS. Obviously PR again, but taking responsibility, recognising the issues, and calling for unity.

 

[MKSpur]

Drop Toby, play Sanchez. Its that simple.

Sanchez isnt on his best form, but is he worse than Toby? Id say not.
Id say Sanchez is younger and more athletic, and much less likely to be vulnerable to the failings Toby currently is.
Id also say Sanchez will never recover his form unless he actually gets games.
?

I’m thinking the solution is to go to a back 3, Sanchez never looked better when playing between the two Belgians. Gives Sanchez the last drops of experience from the two seniors, he covers their ailing recovery pace. Toby and Jan can also help cover the full backs, covering the inexperienced or poor decisions of the right hand side and Rose’s ailing powers too (would also allow Sessegnon to bed in as LWB)

A big part of the issues on the pitch has been the lack of clean sheets, we have the quality to score on most games we just need to give ourselves the platform to start controlling games again. Davies and Dier could also be involved in a back 3 for cover until we are confident we have got things back on track to operate with 4 again (if we even need to)
For the same reason I’d give Alli a run of games ahead of Eriksen. We need to be looking after those who will still be here next season.

 

[Raziel]

I’m thinking the solution is to go to a back 3, Sanchez never looked better when playing between the two Belgians. Gives Sanchez the last drops of experience from the two seniors, he covers their ailing recovery pace. Toby and Jan can also help cover the full backs, covering the inexperienced or poor decisions of the right hand side and Rose’s ailing powers too (would also allow Sessegnon to bed in as LWB)

A big part of the issues on the pitch has been the lack of clean sheets, we have the quality to score on most games we just need to give ourselves the platform to start controlling games again. Davies and Dier could also be involved in a back 3 for cover until we are confident we have got things back on track to operate with 4 again (if we even need to)
For the same reason I’d give Alli a run of games ahead of Eriksen. We need to be looking after those who will still be here next season.

This is the right conversation

- Classic Poch Spurs is two FB's pushing, the CB's holding a highline to facilitate a press, with a Midfield DM alongside someone who can hold on to possession. We simply don't have that personnel anymore

I don't know if back 3 is the answer but I would argue

- Let the back line sit back a little more, focus more on defense, don't be too elaborate with the passing out the back brick, keep it simple.
- Build creativity more from midfield (Winks, N'dombele, Lamela, Sessegnon, Lo Celso, Lucas, Eriksen, Dele all options)
- Use Son and Kane high
- I'd also say with Gazza and Toby in the lineup, we should mix in the long ball to quick runners as well.

Stabilize the team, do the basics and rely on your quality against most teams.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I’m thinking the solution is to go to a back 3, Sanchez never looked better when playing between the two Belgians. Gives Sanchez the last drops of experience from the two seniors, he covers their ailing recovery pace. Toby and Jan can also help cover the full backs, covering the inexperienced or poor decisions of the right hand side and Rose’s ailing powers too (would also allow Sessegnon to bed in as LWB)

A big part of the issues on the pitch has been the lack of clean sheets, we have the quality to score on most games we just need to give ourselves the platform to start controlling games again. Davies and Dier could also be involved in a back 3 for cover until we are confident we have got things back on track to operate with 4 again (if we even need to)
For the same reason I’d give Alli a run of games ahead of Eriksen. We need to be looking after those who will still be here next season.

Poch showed a distinct preference for this a year or so ago, and then injury necessitated a different approach.

Im not against it, and as Raziel says the basics of "Oh fudge we are all over the place" resolution is to get back to keeping things solid at the back and building from there.

I actually think Sanchez pairs well with Vertonghen, and would be happy for a straight swap and keeping the back four - providing we play a midfield that is able to offer some protection and get a grip on the game.

At the end of the day, its all different flavours of trying to get back to fundamentals, none of which is yet to be seen in Poch's selections IMO. Except maybe Brighton, I dont like Sissoko at RB, or Eriksen and Alderweireld in the team, but I guess it was broadly a step in that direction.

 

[Finney Is Back]

and if we lose on saturday do we give him more time?

I would.

It’s not just about spending is it? We have the best chairman in the business who consistently gets the best deals buying and selling. The fact is we have after Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project the best squad in the PL. Whether we pay the 15th highest or 2nd highest wage bill or whatever you want to talk about is largely irrelative. Poch has the 3rd best squad of players to work with and has had for a couple of seasons now. The over achieving narrative no longer applies. Yes when he took over we were nowhere near the top 4 and were over achieving. Now as we have grown with the players he has at his disposal - being top 4 is no longer over achieving and the results from the last year suggest we are underachieving. So right now Poch has to show he has enough to take us that final step, has had numerous opportunities to do so - and has so far failed. The club won’t panic yet, but will need to see some green shoots from the current predicament. And unfortunately the realities are when dining at the top table you don’t have a finite amount of time, no matter how much we want the romance of Poch managing forever to continue....

It's not just about spending no. But its churlish to have expectations that a manager can continue to operate with far less resources than a number of other clubs and keep on doing better than those clubs.

Also you talk about us having the best chairman who consistently gets the best deals when buying and selling.... Perhaps that might be true when it comes to the absolute financials, but its not true in terms of giving the manager the squad that he wants and certainly not in terms of giving the manager the squad that he wants early enough in the window for him to be able to work with them in pre season.

How on earth is the wages that we pay irrelevant (as I assume you mean?) Look at every single league across Europe and look at the teams in the top positions. All of them are the teams with the biggest budgets. As I said in another post I looked at the last 5 years in England, Italy, Spain, France, Germany and Portugal.... Poch is the only manager in those leagues (I think considered the big European leagues) who is not managing one of the richest three or four clubs to consistently finish in the top 4. What Poch is doing is massively over achieving.

If you can tell me of another manager in Europe who is able to achieve consistent CL football AND win trophies with the 6th biggest wage bill and 10th biggest transfer budget in his own league then brilliant - he must be an absolute genius and I'll be all for us bringing him in.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Wow...
Hugo, jan, rose or Davies (and I liked BAE), and take your pick in front with only bale and Modric getting in our current side

Only Bale and Modric from that team getting in our current side? Rubbish.

Please tell me the right back we have that is better than Walker?
please tell me the centre half we have who would be in ahead of Ledley King?
Please tell me the defensive midfielder we have who is better than Parker
Please tell me which attacking midfielder we have who is better than Van Der Vaart?

You would rather have Davies than BAE.... Fine I would say that one is pretty subjective. Personally I would rather have Ekotto but I don't think there are huge amounts in it.

Lloris over Friedel is probably just about correct, although I think the Hugo Lloris we've seen for the past year is a pale imitation of the one we had 3 or 4 years ago and has cost us a number of goals with terrible mistakes.

Would also probably advocate Son or Moura over Lennon.

However overall, not only would Redknapp's side supply more players to a combined 11, it also has two genuinely World class players in Bale and Modric where the current team has none at all.

IMO, there are only two players in this Spurs team that are absolute slam dunks to go into that Redknapp team and make it better..... Harry Kane and Jan Vertonghen.

 

[harr1984]

I would.

It's not just about spending no. But its churlish to have expectations that a manager can continue to operate with far less resources than a number of other clubs and keep on doing better than those clubs.

Also you talk about us having the best chairman who consistently gets the best deals when buying and selling.... Perhaps that might be true when it comes to the absolute financials, but its not true in terms of giving the manager the squad that he wants and certainly not in terms of giving the manager the squad that he wants early enough in the window for him to be able to work with them in pre season.

How on earth is the wages that we pay irrelevant (as I assume you mean?) Look at every single league across Europe and look at the teams in the top positions. All of them are the teams with the biggest budgets. As I said in another post I looked at the last 5 years in England, Italy, Spain, France, Germany and Portugal.... Poch is the only manager in those leagues (I think considered the big European leagues) who is not managing one of the richest three or four clubs to consistently finish in the top 4. What Poch is doing is massively over achieving.

If you can tell me of another manager in Europe who is able to achieve consistent CL football AND win trophies with the 6th biggest wage bill and 10th biggest transfer budget in his own league then brilliant - he must be an absolute genius and I'll be all for us bringing him in.

Because the biggest clubs spunk the biggest wages and don’t count the pennies and give a damn about overspend like our chairman does. We bought Moura for approx 25m and Man U bought Fred for over 50m and I bet you Fred has higher wages - it doesn’t necessarily indicate what you’re trying to insist because we are more intelligent with our transfers. We are no longer over achieving. Player wise do we have the 3rd best squad in the league yes or no? If you agree we do then Poch having the 3rd best set of players should be achieving 3rd/4th in the league without it being considered overachieving. And if you don’t think player wise our squad isn’t the 3rd best in the league then I don’t see the point of the debate anyway....

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Yea I have to say I don’t buy this “poor squad, needs an overhaul” argument. Of course it needs some work both in and out, but I think we have easily the 3rd best squad in the league. We are quite drastically underachieving, last season with the injuries and cup run I’d give the league form a pass, but there’s no excuse for this seasons performances and results.

 

[thfcsteff]

The issue of Toby, Rose or Eriksen - not an issue. Just something for the manager to deal with.
And the manager even has perfectly viable alternatives.

Wanyama is not an issue. He is something like 6th choice for CM, who even cares?

And this is the point Im making.

Either you* think Poch should be doing better, or youve got a bunch of excuses for him.

*general you, not specific you.

If it was as easy as "dispense with the under-performing stars on the pitch and replace them with younger fresher faces" then don't you suspect that Pochettino, a man who sees far more of the squad than we ever do or will, would not have done that already?

Why do you suppose he is not doing so?

As for your "absolute", nah. Poch can do better (and I am sure has spent a lot of time working out what he needs to do) AND there are several very, VERY compelling mitigating factors which have contributed to the situation and are beyond his control.
Your notion that it is a "one or the other" scenario is -IMO- simply wrong.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Only Bale and Modric from that team getting in our current side? Rubbish.

Please tell me the right back we have that is better than Walker?
please tell me the centre half we have who would be in ahead of Ledley King?
Please tell me the defensive midfielder we have who is better than Parker
Please tell me which attacking midfielder we have who is better than Van Der Vaart?

You would rather have Davies than BAE.... Fine I would say that one is pretty subjective. Personally I would rather have Ekotto but I don't think there are huge amounts in it.

Lloris over Friedel is probably just about correct, although I think the Hugo Lloris we've seen for the past year is a pale imitation of the one we had 3 or 4 years ago and has cost us a number of goals with terrible mistakes.

Would also probably advocate Son or Moura over Lennon.

However overall, not only would Redknapp's side supply more players to a combined 11, it also has two genuinely World class players in Bale and Modric where the current team has none at all.

IMO, there are only two players in this Spurs team that are absolute slam dunks to go into that Redknapp team and make it better..... Harry Kane and Jan Vertonghen.

id 100% have king and walker
Look at the defence I named. The only one from yours i wouldn’t 100% agree with is BAE

 

[thfcsteff]

What I'm missing is Poch saying "we have been on a brick run", "the players lack the right level of motivation/commitment", "we have been fudged over tactically repeatedly" and "it's my fudging job to change that right now" not in January, not when the magic fairy arrives, not when we recover our emotional wellbeing ...

A question.

If Pochettino comes out in the pre-match presser Friday and says that, would you feel satiated? I mean, does it come down to you needing to hear him say it, or would you consider the fact that given the man he has shown himself to be, he is acting on your bold-face bit?
FWIW he has, in the past, criticized himself and the players.

 

[thfcsteff]

Replies in bold below mate

Lets accept the excuse scenario

- Toby, Eriksen, Aurier, Wanyama are fudged beyond repair (and have been for 10 months)

Why the fudge are they playing?

Aurier plays only when KWP and Foyth cannot. Even then I don't see it happening too many more times.


- Sanchez, Foyth, Dier, Tanganga, Skipp, KWP can all play in those roles (even Davies can slot into CB)
- Surely they wouldn't do worse than losing 19 out of 41?


Sanchez absolutely deserves the start at CB and I agree, Toby out. Of course, you might remember I have been saying he's done for the last 18 months, and when everyone here (and I mean virtually everyone) was imploring Levy to give him 180k a week or whatever the fudge he wanted, I pointed out he was injury-prone and slowing down, thus wanted shot of him. As did the manager. I assume there is a dressing room dynamic Poch is dealing with, who knows. Tanganga? To my eye he looks every inch a Ledley King, but the question is whether putting him in right now is the smartest thing to do for his development? It could crush him. I'd rather develop him and bring back CCV in Jan if need be. Tanganga (for me) is the future and needs to be brought through properly, same with Eyomah. Foyth would've been at RB but has been injured. Something has happened to Dier and it is heart-breaking. Skipp, yes, agreed, should be getting more time. KWP? Not good enough really is he, but probably better than most.


If somehow everyone can see these "not good enough, too old, head turned" player issues, then the coach can see it as well?

- Why doesn't he do what he did with Capoue, Adebayor, Lennon and bring in the current Mason, Bentaleb, Kane's? the names are above.
- Surely it would be better to be investing the bad results in improving players younger, with potential than old dead horses who don't care anymore?

Simply because the stakes have changed. That was a time when "the project" did not expect, let alone demand, CL football. It was far easier to do what you
're suggesting. It is why refreshing over years is how it has to be done when you are a "big" club (IMO) and the fact we are now having to rebuild rather heavily in one season is regrettable as it is twice the pressure on all concerned.

Frankly, I think we should be able to rely on the professionalism of older heads/veterans even if they are playing out their contracts. We are learning that some of them don't appear to have it. Disappointing. I hope they prove me wrong, starting Saturday.

 

[thfcsteff]

The whole thing reads to me as PR for Poch, most likely at his request, distancing himself from the situation. Not what Id like to see.

Compare to the piece Dier just put out on the OS. Obviously PR again, but taking responsibility, recognising the issues, and calling for unity.

Unbelievable. You have essentially called him a coward. Unbelievable.