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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I don't think one statement contradicts the other tbh

The level of backing any manager at United would get would far outweigh what we can offer so it stands to reason what a manager can build here he can build there too, only with more money to buy the players he wants in the market so therefore more likely to have a bigger better side as a result.

I think the the team he has built here and has had managed the last 4 years has been good enough to challenge for and win trophies and that no one can say he was hampered by the board.

Hmm, so in that case, does it stand to reason that if Levy/the Board were to all of a sudden "go all Sheikh-Mansour at the knees" and throw money with almost no limit, Poch would/would have won a trophy us?

Conversely, what's to say Poch wouldn't build a good side at United as well but also fail to win a trophy there?
 
IMO we did all that, the last few years. We have been an incredibly versatile team in Pochs time.

What you described is a team playing a system, but as if they don't even work on it in training.

That's what I can't fathom. How can we possibly be so bad at it?

I think part of it is because it involves so many players all in unorthodox positions, that when play breaks down no one is where they would normally be when in a more rigid formation.

Another thing that's crept in, is players trying to anticipate where someone is going to turn and tackle them instead of just getting goal side. It was something that AVB had a lot of our players doing and clever opponents were turning and getting the run on the back four.
 
Tried to answer your post paragraph by paragraph.

I would suggest the it's the players not signing new contracts (Toby Jan Eriksen) plus Wanyama and Rose - the more senior players from the last group essentially.

I would look at last summer as a starting point as to where we are in the market and the level of player we can attract and are targeting.

Alderweireld = Sanchez
Jan = ???
Rose = Sessegnon
Wanyama = Ndombele
Dembele = Lo Celso
Eriksen = Fernandez (supposedly was lined and agreed but Eriksen didn't leave)

On paper those ins/outs look good to me and show the club and presumably Pochettino is targetting the right type of players to replace the old guard, add to those the likes of Son Kane and Alli and the new team is starting to take shape and is looking good. Similar level of improvement at RB and CB then Pochs 2.0 will be stepping out at the beginning of next season potentially...

On paper yes he has a great side that many would envy but the game isn't played on paper and we clearly have a jaded set of players that are playing below their level as a collective. I expect once Lo Celso and Sess are bought in to the fold the new blood, along with Ndombele, will bring about a bit of a revival in energy.

Im entirely prepared to give him the next two windows to see through the churn of playing staff, provided of course the club and he are on the same wave length and we expect to be able to bring in the level of players we saw come in this summer.

Agree with these players out. Most players right now are under performing, but we don’t need every player to leave. We do need to create a new dynamic. Get influential players out. Elevate new leaders. Get a new reason for being here, which is different to the one the group had before. It’s a new one, based on joining a top club with proper facilities that pays proper wages. Azpilicueta seems to play pretty well hear after year for Chelsea - so it’s possible to keep players long term without them feeling like they have nothing left to give. You just have to pay them.

It’s weird that Toby and Rose both clearly want to leave but haven’t been able to get the moves, but it means that they stay, and it means that the spirit can never be the same as when Poch first came in and you knew everyone was pulling in the same direction. It would be fake. But for some reason, these guys want out. Whatever.

Get Toby, Rose, Eriksen and Wanyama out. And maybe Aurier. Replace with a right back, a defensive midfielder, and Bruno Fernandes. Dynamic is immediately different. Lo Celso ready to step up, Sess can play more, Foyth and Sanchez play more, maybe we even get Dybala in. Then we’re looking good. Doesn’t need to be massive surgery, but we do need to change the dynamic.

And in the meantime the players that want out need to get over themselves. They’ve decided to stay, so they need to perform. Any moaning about same old messages, or new formations, or Poch being distant, or Poch not being flexible, screw all of that. Just perform. You’ve decided to stay. Bigger clubs didn’t what you. So appreciate what you have and find the energy that you are paid to produce.
 
Agree with these players out. Most players right now are under performing, but we don’t need every player to leave. We do need to create a new dynamic. Get influential players out. Elevate new leaders. Get a new reason for being here, which is different to the one the group had before. It’s a new one, based on joining a top club with proper facilities that pays proper wages. Azpilicueta seems to play pretty well hear after year for Chelsea - so it’s possible to keep players long term without them feeling like they have nothing left to give. You just have to pay them.

It’s weird that Toby and Rose both clearly want to leave but haven’t been able to get the moves, but it means that they stay, and it means that the spirit can never be the same as when Poch first came in and you knew everyone was pulling in the same direction. It would be fake. But for some reason, these guys want out. Whatever.

Get Toby, Rose, Eriksen and Wanyama out. And maybe Aurier. Replace with a right back, a defensive midfielder, and Bruno Fernandes. Dynamic is immediately different. Lo Celso ready to step up, Sess can play more, Foyth and Sanchez play more, maybe we even get Dybala in. Then we’re looking good. Doesn’t need to be massive surgery, but we do need to change the dynamic.

And in the meantime the players that want out need to get over themselves. They’ve decided to stay, so they need to perform. Any moaning about same old messages, or new formations, or Poch being distant, or Poch not being flexible, screw all of that. Just perform. You’ve decided to stay. Bigger clubs didn’t what you. So appreciate what you have and find the energy that you are paid to produce.

Still can’t work out how you managed to spell Daves name correctly.... but he has masssively become a weak link for Chelsea. His kegs have gone it seems and he gets turned easily now

But I agree with everything else

I can see u spending big in January and the recent results may force that

Sure there will be people saying we don’t spend or how can we fund it but again when I did the numbers in the summer we can spend £150m plus without selling a player and that was pessimistic

Getting players in on a buy now pay later model would work and the players you mention are ready to leave whilst also performing so basically the opposite of ours
 
we will get there after we've signed all possible sponsors, and stabilize costs for running the operations including non football events.

I think we peaked too early, one more year with the boys challenging for CL and top 4, we would have limped into next season with a clear plan and with enough resources to fund the rebuild/transition.

our injuries - dembele, wanyama, Dier now lloris have and are costing us dearly.
Take Liverpool mate, they backed Klopp big time in strengthening the weaknesses in their side, Keita and Fabinho in centre midfield, Allinson and Van Dyke at the back. City, Jesus and Sane with Laporte, and Rodri. Man Utd initially backed their managers then stopped and look where they are now. The less square pegs in round holes the better when you are talking about building trophy winning teams. Those little differences count.

Sent from my SM-T835 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Agree with these players out. Most players right now are under performing, but we don’t need every player to leave. We do need to create a new dynamic. Get influential players out. Elevate new leaders. Get a new reason for being here, which is different to the one the group had before. It’s a new one, based on joining a top club with proper facilities that pays proper wages. Azpilicueta seems to play pretty well hear after year for Chelsea - so it’s possible to keep players long term without them feeling like they have nothing left to give. You just have to pay them.

It’s weird that Toby and Rose both clearly want to leave but haven’t been able to get the moves, but it means that they stay, and it means that the spirit can never be the same as when Poch first came in and you knew everyone was pulling in the same direction. It would be fake. But for some reason, these guys want out. Whatever.

Get Toby, Rose, Eriksen and Wanyama out. And maybe Aurier. Replace with a right back, a defensive midfielder, and Bruno Fernandes. Dynamic is immediately different. Lo Celso ready to step up, Sess can play more, Foyth and Sanchez play more, maybe we even get Dybala in. Then we’re looking good. Doesn’t need to be massive surgery, but we do need to change the dynamic.

And in the meantime the players that want out need to get over themselves. They’ve decided to stay, so they need to perform. Any moaning about same old messages, or new formations, or Poch being distant, or Poch not being flexible, screw all of that. Just perform. You’ve decided to stay. Bigger clubs didn’t what you. So appreciate what you have and find the energy that you are paid to produce.

Which of them decided to stay? Wanyama, Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen and Aurier all wanted to go this summer. None of them turned down an offer from a team that wanted them. Levy and Poch did. They kept these players.

The idea that the problem is just these players is a fantasy. That if we shift them, then the players run into the ground after 5 or 6 years of Poch will suddenly get some mental boast or something. None of them bar Wanyama will go in Janurary anyway. Levy simply isn't gonna shift them.

The likes of Son and Kane are seeing Poch behave so weirdly, not turning up at training and instead watching it on CCTV from his office. They are guessing why certain players are being dropped. They are hearing the nonsense he comes up with in press conferences. The aura Poch had is gone. They are fed up of being treated like children and their agents are no doubt will be talking to Levy soon.
 
Over the last 18 months, it's been so so clear that the squad needs an overhaul. It's also crystal clear that Pochettino is the man to do it and judging by a lot of his recent comments he actually WANTS to do it. For me, there's a clear cadre of senior pros who are very good at playing football and are legit Spurs legends (besides Wanyama), but sadly, have reached the end of their cycle with this great club.

GONERS:
Alderweireld
Eriksen
Rose

ON THE FENCE:
Vertonghen (though if he would sign a new contract, I'd be happy to keep him at the club)
Lloris
Dier

NOT GOOD ENOUGH:
Aurier
Wanyama

Judging by recent contract renewals, I think we can safely assume that Davies, Lamela, Moura, and Sissoko are here for the long-term. That feels like a ton of players to move on from (incl. Dembele and Trippier), but if you take those guys out of the squad, you start to see a squad that feels very young and promising with a few big holes.

GK: Lloris (32) / Gazza (27)

RB: New RB (x) / KWP (21)
CB1: Sanchez (23) / Foyth (21)
Cb2: Vertonghen (32) / NEW CB
LB: Davies (26) / Sessegnon (19)

DM: New DCM / Sissoko (30) / Dier (25)
CM: Ndombele (23) / Winks (23)

ACM: Lo Celso (22) / Lamela (27)
ACM: Dele (23) / New ACM

FWD: Son (27) / Lucas (27)
ST: Kane (26) / New Striker?

If you look at that squad, it's clear where are real gaps are. Unless Poch sees Sessegnon as a long-term fullback, we need fullbacks on both sides, a new young CB, a big-money attacker (seems like we really pushed for Dybala/Fernandes), and potentially a new striker. Most importantly, I think we really, really need to spend some money on a legit central midfielder. There are tons of interesting players out there in Europe (Tanguy's old mate Lucas Tousart, for one), and I think we can find one who fits our project.

In my opinion, that's not an insane amount of turnover but is starting to look much more like the "Painful Rebuild" that Poch wanted. It's also — importantly — a team that feels energetic, young, and committed to the project with tons of experience through the team.

These last few weeks have been rough, but let's not forget what a truly amazing ride the last 5 years have been. I think Pochettino's mastery has kept the team competitive for this last period, now it's time for our club to back him. Ndombele, Lo Celso, and Sessegnon were immense starts, let's fix another few of these problems in January and keep it going from there.
 
The idea that the problem is just these players is a fantasy. That if we shift them, then the players run into the ground after 5 or 6 years of Poch will suddenly get some mental boast or something. None of them bar Wanyama will go in Janurary anyway. Levy simply isn't gonna shift them.

For me, this is the key. It's less about removing the bad apples (because I don't even think they're bad apples_, and more about invigorating the squad with the kind of young, hungry players who Poch loves and love Poch. And we need squad spaces if we're gonna do that. Levy's going to need to accept some fees that aren't the ones that he wants and back Pochettino with the kind of energy he craves. Don't forget, just a few months ago, we convinced N'Dombele and Lo Celso (and, by media accounts Fernandes and Dybala) that Poch was the man to take their careers to the next level. No reason why we couldn't do that again in January and next summer.
 
Which of them decided to stay? Wanyama, Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen and Aurier all wanted to go this summer. None of them turned down an offer from a team that wanted them. Levy and Poch did. They kept these players.

The idea that the problem is just these players is a fantasy. That if we shift them, then the players run into the ground after 5 or 6 years of Poch will suddenly get some mental boast or something. None of them bar Wanyama will go in Janurary anyway. Levy simply isn't gonna shift them.

The likes of Son and Kane are seeing Poch behave so weirdly, not turning up at training and instead watching it on CCTV from his office. They are guessing why certain players are being dropped. They are hearing the nonsense he comes up with in press conferences. The aura Poch had is gone. They are fed up of being treated like children and their agents are no doubt will be talking to Levy soon.

What bids did they turn down?
The club can accept every offer put the table but if the players says no then that's it, you can't force a player to go.
 
Which of them decided to stay? Wanyama, Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen and Aurier all wanted to go this summer. None of them turned down an offer from a team that wanted them. Levy and Poch did. They kept these players.

The idea that the problem is just these players is a fantasy. That if we shift them, then the players run into the ground after 5 or 6 years of Poch will suddenly get some mental boast or something. None of them bar Wanyama will go in Janurary anyway. Levy simply isn't gonna shift them.

The likes of Son and Kane are seeing Poch behave so weirdly, not turning up at training and instead watching it on CCTV from his office. They are guessing why certain players are being dropped. They are hearing the nonsense he comes up with in press conferences. The aura Poch had is gone. They are fed up of being treated like children and their agents are no doubt will be talking to Levy soon.

Wanyama turned down Club Brugge. Levy had agreed a transfer fee, Wanyama wasn't happy with the wages so rejected the move.
Eriksen had interest from Utd and Atletico but they're not where he wants to go.
Toby had interest from Roma. They tried to undercut the release clause which was a no-go for Levy but as I recall Toby wasn't keen anyway.
Rose and Aurier I don't remember reading of any concrete interest that was turned down by either player or club.
Happy to stand corrected if I have any of that wrong.
I think @Finney Is Back has suggested before that Levy could do more to sweeten deals by lowering our asking price which is fair enough, but the player still has to want to leave. Right now we are stuck with players who whilst wanting out, have decided to stay put for the time being. In which case they should knuckle down and get on with the job they are being paid for.

I agree with your point that moving on these wantaway players is of itself not the panacea to all our troubles but it will be a good start.
 
Which of them decided to stay? Wanyama, Rose, Alderweireld, Eriksen and Aurier all wanted to go this summer. None of them turned down an offer from a team that wanted them. Levy and Poch did. They kept these players.

The idea that the problem is just these players is a fantasy. That if we shift them, then the players run into the ground after 5 or 6 years of Poch will suddenly get some mental boast or something. None of them bar Wanyama will go in Janurary anyway. Levy simply isn't gonna shift them.

The likes of Son and Kane are seeing Poch behave so weirdly, not turning up at training and instead watching it on CCTV from his office. They are guessing why certain players are being dropped. They are hearing the nonsense he comes up with in press conferences. The aura Poch had is gone. They are fed up of being treated like children and their agents are no doubt will be talking to Levy soon.

The point is, these players are so determined to leave to the point that Rose is left off the pre season tour, Toby has run his contract down, and Wanyama publicly turned down a move. These players want to leave, they seemingly struggle to give their best for us anymore, and yet when reality bites and they realise that the clubs they want, don’t want them, they have to stay. That isn’t on us. Toby’s agent’s clearly thought a 25M release clause would be his ticket out. Didn’t happen.

So I’m then saying, if they say, no moaning about not being able to give their all. No contradictory ideas, that Poch is both inflexible but that they don’t understand why he’s moved away from 4231 to a diamond. That it’s a regime but he’s welcome players that wanted to leave into the starting 11. That it’s the same old messages but he’s tried to distance himself and let other coaches have the voice. It’s all flimflam. Whether it’s the players’ agents or players themselves, this idea that it is so hard for them should stop if you ask me. They were given the opportunity to look outside. No club bigger or better than Spurs wanted them. Because there aren’t that many anyway. So get on with it, be thankful for what you have. You’ve been welcomed back into the team. Perform.
 
There are couple of articles about our lack of press in the media this morning.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...tottenham-an-ageing-team-that-is-not-pressing

Not a Mauricio Pochettino team? On the face of it, it's an absurd observation. How could it not be? All but one of the Tottenham players who started the 3-0 defeat to Brighton have been at the club for more than three years. Half of those have been there for more than six years. That continuity has been integral to their success. Now it is a problem.

It was the fourth time since September that Pochettino has named a Tottenham team with an average age of over 28 years old. Having had the youngest starting line-up in the Premier League in each of his first three seasons, Spurs now possess the fourth oldest in the competition. It is more than a quirk. It's a fundamental issue facing this manager.

Pochettino loves working with young players. They are coachable. Willing to learn. Even when an older player is a model professional with good habits, he is instinctively sceptical. For example, some years ago he was left bemused by another Premier League club opting to bring in a highly respected ageing midfielder as he felt the player's legs had gone.


That move actually worked out but it's a revealing insight because, more than anything else, the reason why Pochettino loves working with young players is due to their superior energy levels. His idea of football requires his team to win the ball back quickly. A Pochettino team at its best is a nightmare to play against. Endless pressing. Perpetual motion.

skysports-mauricio-pochettino_4798073.jpg

From his time at Southampton, where he soon won over the squad thanks to the clarity of his commitment to a high-pressing game, to the transformation he instituted in Tottenham's style of play, this intensity has been the hallmark of any Pochettino team. It is the starting point, the platform upon which everything else is based. His philosophy.


Nobody would have recognised the team that turned up at Brighton as a Pochettino team. But the real issue is that this was not a one-off. There has been a change. Tottenham no longer press from the front. They are not winning the ball so high up the field and as a result they are not only struggling to create as many chances but they are easier to play against.

skysports-tottenham-pressed-sequences_4798081.jpg

The number of pressed sequences - those where the opposition has three or fewer passes in a sequence, and the sequence ends within 40 metres of their own goal - has dropped alarmingly. The statistics show what even the naked eye can spot - Tottenham are winning possession of the ball in the final third far less than before and far less than their rivals.

skysports-tottenham-possession-won_4798079.jpg

For Pochettino, perhaps more than any other coach at the top end of the game, this matters. Ask anyone what makes Jose Mourinho a great manager and his two Champions League successes will surely form part of the answer. The same is true of Pep Guardiola, while Jurgen Klopp has now won major trophies at both Borussia Dortmund and Liverpool.

Pochettino does not have those medals but he had something else. A style of play that was unmistakeably his and one that he had demonstrated was repeatable at different clubs. It had not brought silverware to Spurs but it had maximised the potential of the playing squad and there was reason to believe that, with more money and luck, success was inevitable.

What now? Up until recently, it could be argued that older players were too set in their ways to be moulded into his modern way of playing. In time, those who grew up schooled in his approach would be a different proposition altogether, perhaps even the perfect fusion of enthusiasm and experience. Physically able to do it. Mentally ready to do it.

Tottenham's decline raises questions about the legitimacy of that logic. Some of it can be explained away by the behind the scenes issues. By players in the final year of their contracts no longer committed enough to buy into these ideas as they once had. It would be a mistake to underestimate the impact that this is having on this Spurs squad.

But it doesn't quite excuse the manager's role in this entirely.

Pochettino had pushed for an overhaul. No doubt he had recognised the urgency of the need for change. But after a long period in which it was suggested that Tottenham were a young team on the up, one still learning how to get the small details right, it is problematic to now conclude that he cannot make it work because these players are too old.
 
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