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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Liverpool and us are a strange/interesting comparison over the last 7 or 8 years. Huge similarities and sliding doors moments.

Reliant on one player, bale v the toothy one.
So close the title only to fall short, slippy g and Leicester.
New manager lauded but not being able to get over the line. Klopp has now busted that obviously, but sliding door.
Hugely influential refs call in CL final defeat.

How we react to the set backs, we shrink, they put on another layer of grievance and come back.

Vvd is good but he's overhyped imho. He's no better than Jan was at that age.
Their full backs are different class and will get better. They are already way better than rose and walker ever were.
I don't think there's much between the keepers tbh.
The biggest difference outside the FBs is they are solid in the middle. But we've lost wanyama, dier and the moose.
Take their equivalents our and see how they get on.

If we had won the CL final, Poch would have instantly become the hottest property in football and people would rightly be asking questions about Klopp’s inability to win finals. Instead they won and look on course to mount a serious title challenge this season. As good as we were other a two year period, we achieved 70 and 86 points respectively. Liverpool got 97. We never finished within 6 points of Leicester or Chelsea when we last challenged.

i disagree about Van Dijk. He was comfortably the best CB in the world last season. No one dribbled past him, he seldom made mistakes, it was like a man playing against kids at times that’s how much better he was than the forwards he played against. Jan in his prime was world class but he was never head and shoulders the best CB in the world.

We will have to disagree about Alison. Granted I watch spurs far more and Lloris’s mistakes stick in my mind but he makes too many for a top keeper. I was convinced he used to save his worst games for the biggest stage, World Cup final, cup semi finals, London derbies etc (he made a howler against Liverpool last season IIRC in the last minute) but now he is making them against soton and Brighton. You can forgive shots squirming in at the near post but the kind of mistakes he is making are laughable, fundamental errors, failing to catch the ball, getting caught on the ball in his 6 yard box.
 
I couldn’t argue with that to a from a Bayern point of view to a certain extent, but it still says a lot they were content to let it happen, I think it was Nayim who said this after the game on the Bayern topic, we played like a lower league team running around like maniacs for 30-40 minutes then their class took over, but here is the thing the team we could put out are their equals, the team was setup badly.

I can't with it either, but the facts are we created 3 1 v 1s with their keeper.
That's either good play from us and bayern coaches should be trying to counter it, or awful play from bayern and they should be reacting to it.
I certainly wouldn't be happy if my coach was sitting there saying its fine leave it just now.
Those three goals go in, our tails go up there's go down and who I owe what happens.
 
If we had won the CL final, Poch would have instantly become the hottest property in football and people would rightly be asking questions about Klopp’s inability to win finals. Instead they won and look on course to mount a serious title challenge this season. As good as we were other a two year period, we achieved 70 and 86 points respectively. Liverpool got 97. We never finished within 6 points of Leicester or Chelsea when we last challenged.

i disagree about Van Dijk. He was comfortably the best CB in the world last season. No one dribbled past him, he seldom made mistakes, it was like a man playing against kids at times that’s how much better he was than the forwards he played against. Jan in his prime was world class but he was never head and shoulders the best CB in the world.

We will have to disagree about Alison. Granted I watch spurs far more and Lloris’s mistakes stick in my mind but he makes too many for a top keeper. I was convinced he used to save his worst games for the biggest stage, World Cup final, cup semi finals, London derbies etc (he made a howler against Liverpool last season IIRC in the last minute) but now he is making them against soton and Brighton. You can forgive shots squirming in at the near post but the kind of mistakes he is making are laughable, fundamental errors, failing to catch the ball, getting caught on the ball in his 6 yard box.

Re the CL final, as I said sliding doors.
We will agree to disagree on vvd.
Did you see the Leicester goal in Saturday, went straight through alisson, not a major hugoesque howler but bloody poor.
 
Lose against Watford and surely Poch is gone. I'm umming and ahhing about whether I want that, but his authority must be totally undermined. We've been here before and the last days of a coach are never pleasant.

I think theres a conflict on this board between those who see the writing on the wall, and those who dont want to believe it.

Obviously time will tell, a resounding win against Watford, and then Belgrade, and suddenly its "What crisis?". A loss, however...

The thing for me, is it absolutely resonates with the "end of days" vibe right now. Id very much like to be proven wrong, and have things turn for the better, but Id be a liar if I didnt look at us now and see the same vibes as the recent managerial departures I can think of.

Most recent departures/sackings (since the beginnign of last season): Gracia, Siewert, Benitez, Sarri, Hughton, Moore, Ranieri, Puel, Wagner, Mourinho, Hughes, Jokanovic... Most had a very similar air about them as we do now IMHO
 
“I think he has done very well,” Wenger said. “When he came to Tottenham, he slowly built them up with a young generation. Every year, people want something more from you. I experienced that at Arsenal.

“For 20 consecutive years we were in the top four. In the end, it is not enough. These days, you get in the Champions League, people are very happy. No matter how good a job you have done, after four or five years, you must show you can do more.

“He is at that stage.”

First time Wenger has ever said anything about us without being an utter clam about it?
 
What would you call the diamond for the last year when it has clearly been costing us, he has stuck by it stubbornly while seeing with his own eyes the issues it has caused, when a bunch of fans who I assume have never worked in professional football saw the team against Bayern and predicted what was to come that tells it’s own story, yet Poch thought that was the correct team to pick.

These European teams don’t half like to rub it in when things go their way...

As mentioned above, we could have justifiably been 2 goals to the good at half time with better finishing. We were playing really well. All well and good deciding you’re going to soak up that pressure and claiming it was your plan, but when you’re giving up one on ones it’s stretching credibility a bit to say it was all thought through.

I also take the City away leg last season, Son’s second goal a direct result of the diamond’s benefits - getting 2 of our players pushed up on their centre backs and forcing them into errors. Lucas picked Laporte’s pocket and we had the break. I don’t think the diamond is fundementally flawed more than any other formation, nor do I think the players are incapable of playing it. We have to work out kinks with it, sure, but it took some time to get fully into 4231 before we really perfected it, and it didn’t exactly help us much on Saturday.
 
He's sti
I think theres a conflict on this board between those who see the writing on the wall, and those who dont want to believe it.

Obviously time will tell, a resounding win against Watford, and then Belgrade, and suddenly its "What crisis?". A loss, however...

The thing for me, is it absolutely resonates with the "end of days" vibe right now. Id very much like to be proven wrong, and have things turn for the better, but Id be a liar if I didnt look at us now and see the same vibes as the recent managerial departures I can think of.

Most recent departures/sackings (since the beginnign of last season): Gracia, Siewert, Benitez, Sarri, Hughton, Moore, Ranieri, Puel, Wagner, Mourinho, Hughes, Jokanovic... Most had a very similar air about them as we do now IMHO

Poch is still a young man.....you cannot be serious!

This hiccup will pass...it may take a few weeks though... but he has to play Lucas Moura...some morer…:D

is 3 gees back yet..:eek::D
 
These European teams don’t half like to rub it in when things go their way...

As mentioned above, we could have justifiably been 2 goals to the good at half time with better finishing. We were playing really well. All well and good deciding you’re going to soak up that pressure and claiming it was your plan, but when you’re giving up one on ones it’s stretching credibility a bit to say it was all thought through.

I also take the City away leg last season, Son’s second goal a direct result of the diamond’s benefits - getting 2 of our players pushed up on their centre backs and forcing them into errors. Lucas picked Laporte’s pocket and we had the break. I don’t think the diamond is fundementally flawed more than any other formation, nor do I think the players are incapable of playing it. We have to work out kinks with it, sure, but it took some time to get fully into 4231 before we really perfected it, and it didn’t exactly help us much on Saturday.

Some very good points
 
https://www.thefightingrooster.co.uk/2019/10/the-thfc-survival-guide/

Welcome to The Monday Hangover.

So, how do we get out of this mess? How do we survive?

There seems to be two pathways to take. We either stick or twist.

If we stick, then the club unequivocally backs Mauricio Pochettino with supporting the overhaul and replacement of the want-away players. This means spending in January and spending again in the summer – and this time, getting rid of anyone that doesn’t want to be here rather than retaining them for sentimental reasons. Or logistical ones (i.e. not signing replacements beforehand). Get it done and get it done properly. No half-arsed efforts.

Poch started his era at Spurs by removing the deadwood and the troublemakers and the ones that lacked discipline. We go again.

If we twist? Then Daniel Levy has to sack Poch (or agree a settlement) and replace him and seek to get some ilk of new-manager bounce to save this season and allow for a short-term bridge towards a more long term solution. Letting Poch go would probably mean he ends up at Old Trafford. The pay-off for instigating this will be in the tens of millions and knowing Levy, he’d want to be compensated for it. Knowing how desperate United are, they’d pay it.

Stick.

It’s got to be stick.

If it’s stick how do we get back to some resemblance of our former self? We don’t. The past is done and this team at its very core needs to be disbanded and reinvented, with focus on the new generation. One that still needs to be defined. The likes of Harry Winks a testament to what we need going forward. Players that play with passion and have ability to back it up.

Build around the players that want to be here and not the ones that have ambitions elsewhere (or have simply run out of emotional fuel for the club). Even if this causes more bumps in the road, it’s better to have a destination in mind rather than driving in circles.

The issue we have is the players that need offing. Jan Vertonghen, Toby Alderweireld and Christian Eriksen. Perhaps even Danny Rose. We can’t be relying on them to pull us through this sticky moment as they are displaying a lack of urgency in doing just that. That might be harsh on them. But they are muddled and off-key with application on the pitch. To be fair, they all are. And the ones that don’t want to be are impacted by the lack of synergy.

Our away record remains abysmal. Compare it to the peak times under Poch when we hardly lost on our travels. Those times were the personification of togetherness. The best of times when everyone at the club was on the same page. We never gave up, never surrendered and always found a way even if it looked improbable. Tenacious. Physical. We bullied teams. We never lost composure. We always had a plan.

There’s little evidence of that fighting spirit right now – so we have to stop starting players that have a detrimental mentality.

Colchester, Bayern and Brighton showcases that as of right now, the players as a group are fragmented and unable to motivate themselves on the pitch. Off it, they’ve often spoken the right words but actions are all we care about. Moussa Sissoko posted on social media, a message that encapsulates responsibility and awareness. Others did the same. But again, if this is how the squad feel – why are they not translating their emotions onto the pitch? Or are they subtly hinting that they’re being stopped from truly expressing themselves because of the coaching and match-day preparations?

There are whispers and rumours that have been shared in the broadsheets and tabloids and other think piece articles online relating to stagnation of ideas within Hotspur Way. That the players want the change that Pochettino is desperate to implement but both are at odds with each other in terms of how it comes to fruition. There is probably some truth in this but if there are players that refuse to sign contracts and said players are key to the structure of our strongest eleven, we’re stuck looking towards the chairman and the dynamic that (is meant to) exist to facilitate the change in squad personnel.

I guess this is where we go back to considering twist. If the players are simply not responding to the coach then the obvious fix is to replace the coach. This is what everyone does. They reset. Start completely afresh. But this still remains too obvious a choice. If Poch is sincere and genuine about wanting to stay and push towards a new chapter and resolve this mess, then you have to take it as face value. You have to trust him, he deserves that from us.

We’re back at stick again.

We have to back him. That means suffering and possibly even sacrificing this season to go again the next.

What he needs to do is choose the best team for the present and not one that harks to the past. He must settle on a plan, a formation and a sustainable style. New full-backs would help kick-start things. That and a return to the original foundation Poch built: the defence. It’s no longer a unit, just a collection of distant memories.

Poch has momentarily confused his own philosophy. Our pressing game has dropped off since the swarming days of the first three seasons. His own identity is in a state of flux and we are the reflection of that confusion.

Do we (the supporters) have the patience for this? To wait? Does the chairman accept the possibility of not qualifying for the Champions League? Is the immediate short term more important than the next few seasons? If so then the new manager-bounce would be appealing to you.

The fitness of Ryan Sessegnon and Gio Lo Celso will be key to galvanise the teams shape and impetus in transitions from defence to midfield to attack. We have to stop rotating with future games in mind. We can not craft winning momentum if we’re not winning games. Play the best team and let them gather some positive pace. ‘The best’ eleven being the strongest selection of players that WANT to perform for the badge. Regain self-pride and belief.

Every game remains a must win. And we must win.



Unwanted epilogue:

Here’s a different type of twist to end the article with. What if Poch is waiting to be pushed out? What if the tin foil conspiracy is true? Only the chairman will know this for certain. If the players know this, that might explain why they’re not performing. If…it’s a massive ‘if’…this is true and faith in the relationships between manager and players is dead, then that fee we have to pay to be able to then replace him has to be accepted.

A scenario where things are left to fester could lead to far more damaging culture destroying conclusion and nobody is bigger or more important than the essence of what it means to be Tottenham Hotspur.

We know Levy doesn’t do sentiment. Which means he’ll do what he believes is best for the business, which is or isn’t the best for the club depending on where you stand. The reality is, Pochettino has worked under constraints in terms of transfer budgets over the seasons. This mess is self-made, one the club have not done enough to protect themselves from.

As for Poch and his own quest for peace, if he has lost control he has to stop pretending he has control or that he can regain it. His tone in press conferences and with the media has been prickly for some time. The slight digs at his own players equally so. A new era will take time and I’d rather trust our Argentine than someone new to revitalise and re-energise us. I guess I’m overly loyal. Perhaps that’s misguided.

That potential new coach could instil new ideas and perhaps gain that lost motivation and inspire a much needed change, be it a different direction altogether. After-all, that’s exactly what Poch was when he was appointed. A new direction that resulted in driving towards glorious destination. Almost glorious. The Sat Nav died just after the GPS signal sent us down the wrong route. And now we’re lost.

No matter stick or twist, if you don’t have the patience you’ll have to find some. You’re going to need it regardless of the direction we decide to take.
 
I don’t think the diamond is fundementally flawed more than any other formation, nor do I think the players are incapable of playing it. We have to work out kinks with it, sure, but it took some time to get fully into 4231 before we really perfected it, and it didn’t exactly help us much on Saturday.

When we moved onto a 4231 with Pochs arrival, it had teething problems. However, there was clear and distinct actions on the field, changes game to game and progress observed.

At first it was seeing players look for pressing triggers, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt.
Then it was spells of really successful pressing, and spells where it didnt function at all.
Then it was games of really successful pressing, with the odd flat one.
Then we were looking every bit the pressing team, and started working more on our possession game.

There was obvious work being implemented.

I dont think thats ever been true of the diamond with us.

I agree with you, the diamond in and of itself is fine. Or at least can be. But I dont see any progress being made with it at all, only more and more confirmation that it doesnt look like itll work with us.
 
One thing that i'd like your view on @BrainOfLevy if there was this plan by Poch to continue developing and using the diamond formation, why wasn't another striker prioritised when the plan was to let Llorente leave?

And before anyone says "Dybala" we have to remember that wasn't a player we were actively targetting and only became available to us when Juventus wanted to sell him to reduce their wage bill...
 
I really think there is far to much emphasis being put onto the diamond formation and some fans are becoming blinded by it and that is the reason we have had this recent run. There are lots of reasons why we are having such a bad time but so many seem to be putting all down to the system.

I am not saying it is a perfect system for us to play but then again it is not the worse system either. I fully expect those who have been putting full blame onto the diamond system to call my thoughts out as wrong ( fair enough) but did we not change our system before the Brighton farce and how did that turn out.
 
One thing that i'd like your view on @BrainOfLevy if there was this plan by Poch to continue developing and using the diamond formation, why wasn't another striker prioritised when the plan was to let Llorente leave?

And before anyone says "Dybala" we have to remember that wasn't a player we were actively targetting and only became available to us when Juventus wanted to sell him to reduce their wage bill...

Son and Kane first choice. Lucas first back up. Parrott to get opportunities, or probably out on loan if Dybala came.
 
When we moved onto a 4231 with Pochs arrival, it had teething problems. However, there was clear and distinct actions on the field, changes game to game and progress observed.

At first it was seeing players look for pressing triggers, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didnt.
Then it was spells of really successful pressing, and spells where it didnt function at all.
Then it was games of really successful pressing, with the odd flat one.
Then we were looking every bit the pressing team, and started working more on our possession game.

There was obvious work being implemented.

I dont think thats ever been true of the diamond with us.

I agree with you, the diamond in and of itself is fine. Or at least can be. But I dont see any progress being made with it at all, only more and more confirmation that it doesnt look like itll work with us.

I’ve seen good signs of it in a few games. The swifter transitions, the clearer cut chances that we created, the deeper defending. I can see a plan forming. It wasn’t been well executed in its entirety yet but if we are accepting there are problems - be it lack of confidence, squad downing tools, whatever - no system is going to look as good as it can.
 
I’ve seen good signs of it in a few games. The swifter transitions, the clearer cut chances that we created, the deeper defending. I can see a plan forming. It wasn’t been well executed in its entirety yet but if we are accepting there are problems - be it lack of confidence, squad downing tools, whatever - no system is going to look as good as it can.

Right. Ill stop there then - agree to disagree.
 
Son and Kane first choice. Lucas first back up. Parrott to get opportunities, or probably out on loan if Dybala came.

Hmm, on paper that sounds good. However, Dybala would seem random given that he is more like a Son or Moura than somebody like Kane who can play as a 'number 9'.

Like a lot of things re our transfers, it doesn't seem like the planning has been good enough. Like not targeting a quality RB, defensive midfielder etc.
 
https://www.thefightingrooster.co.uk/2019/10/the-thfc-survival-guide/

Welcome to The Monday Hangover.

So, how do we get out of this mess? How do we survive?

There seems to be two pathways to take. We either stick or twist.

If we stick, then the club unequivocally backs Mauricio Pochettino with supporting the overhaul and replacement of the want-away players. This means spending in January and spending again in the summer – and this time, getting rid of anyone that doesn’t want to be here rather than retaining them for sentimental reasons. Or logistical ones (i.e. not signing replacements beforehand). Get it done and get it done properly. No half-arsed efforts.

Poch started his era at Spurs by removing the deadwood and the troublemakers and the ones that lacked discipline. We go again.

If we twist? Then Daniel Levy has to sack Poch (or agree a settlement) and replace him and seek to get some ilk of new-manager bounce to save this season and allow for a short-term bridge towards a more long term solution. Letting Poch go would probably mean he ends up at Old Trafford. The pay-off for instigating this will be in the tens of millions and knowing Levy, he’d want to be compensated for it. Knowing how desperate United are, they’d pay it.

Stick.

It’s got to be stick.

If it’s stick how do we get back to some resemblance of our former self? We don’t. The past is done and this team at its very core needs to be disbanded and reinvented, with focus on the new generation. One that still needs to be defined. The likes of Harry Winks a testament to what we need going forward. Players that play with passion and have ability to back it up.

Build around the players that want to be here and not the ones that have ambitions elsewhere (or have simply run out of emotional fuel for the club). Even if this causes more bumps in the road, it’s better to have a destination in mind rather than driving in circles.

The issue we have is the players that need offing. Jan Vertonghen, Toby Alderweireld and Christian Eriksen. Perhaps even Danny Rose. We can’t be relying on them to pull us through this sticky moment as they are displaying a lack of urgency in doing just that. That might be harsh on them. But they are muddled and off-key with application on the pitch. To be fair, they all are. And the ones that don’t want to be are impacted by the lack of synergy.

Our away record remains abysmal. Compare it to the peak times under Poch when we hardly lost on our travels. Those times were the personification of togetherness. The best of times when everyone at the club was on the same page. We never gave up, never surrendered and always found a way even if it looked improbable. Tenacious. Physical. We bullied teams. We never lost composure. We always had a plan.

There’s little evidence of that fighting spirit right now – so we have to stop starting players that have a detrimental meteorology.

Colchester, Bayern and Brighton showcases that as of right now, the players as a group are fragmented and unable to motivate themselves on the pitch. Off it, they’ve often spoken the right words but actions are all we care about. Moussa Sissoko posted on social media, a message that encapsulates responsibility and awareness. Others did the same. But again, if this is how the squad feel – why are they not translating their emotions onto the pitch? Or are they subtly hinting that they’re being stopped from truly expressing themselves because of the coaching and match-day preparations?

There are whispers and rumours that have been shared in the broadsheets and tabloids and other think piece articles online relating to stagnation of ideas within Hotspur Way. That the players want the change that Pochettino is desperate to implement but both are at odds with each other in terms of how it comes to fruition. There is probably some truth in this but if there are players that refuse to sign contracts and said players are key to the structure of our strongest eleven, we’re stuck looking towards the chairman and the dynamic that (is meant to) exist to facilitate the change in squad personnel.

I guess this is where we go back to considering twist. If the players are simply not responding to the coach then the obvious fix is to replace the coach. This is what everyone does. They reset. Start completely afresh. But this still remains too obvious a choice. If Poch is sincere and genuine about wanting to stay and push towards a new chapter and resolve this mess, then you have to take it as face value. You have to trust him, he deserves that from us.

We’re back at stick again.

We have to back him. That means suffering and possibly even sacrificing this season to go again the next.

What he needs to do is choose the best team for the present and not one that harks to the past. He must settle on a plan, a formation and a sustainable style. New full-backs would help kick-start things. That and a return to the original foundation Poch built: the defence. It’s no longer a unit, just a collection of distant memories.

Poch has momentarily confused his own philosophy. Our pressing game has dropped off since the swarming days of the first three seasons. His own identity is in a state of flux and we are the reflection of that confusion.

Do we (the supporters) have the patience for this? To wait? Does the chairman accept the possibility of not qualifying for the Champions League? Is the immediate short term more important than the next few seasons? If so then the new manager-bounce would be appealing to you.

The fitness of Ryan Sessegnon and Gio Lo Celso will be key to galvanise the teams shape and impetus in transitions from defence to midfield to attack. We have to stop rotating with future games in mind. We can not craft winning momentum if we’re not winning games. Play the best team and let them gather some positive pace. ‘The best’ eleven being the strongest selection of players that WANT to perform for the badge. Regain self-pride and belief.

Every game remains a must win. And we must win.



Unwanted epilogue:

Here’s a different type of twist to end the article with. What if Poch is waiting to be pushed out? What if the tin foil conspiracy is true? Only the chairman will know this for certain. If the players know this, that might explain why they’re not performing. If…it’s a massive ‘if’…this is true and faith in the relationships between manager and players is dead, then that fee we have to pay to be able to then replace him has to be accepted.

A scenario where things are left to fester could lead to far more damaging culture destroying conclusion and nobody is bigger or more important than the essence of what it means to be Tottenham Hotspur.

We know Levy doesn’t do sentiment. Which means he’ll do what he believes is best for the business, which is or isn’t the best for the club depending on where you stand. The reality is, Pochettino has worked under constraints in terms of transfer budgets over the seasons. This mess is self-made, one the club have not done enough to protect themselves from.

As for Poch and his own quest for peace, if he has lost control he has to stop pretending he has control or that he can regain it. His tone in press conferences and with the media has been prickly for some time. The slight digs at his own players equally so. A new era will take time and I’d rather trust our Argentine than someone new to revitalise and re-energise us. I guess I’m overly loyal. Perhaps that’s misguided.

That potential new coach could instil new ideas and perhaps gain that lost motivation and inspire a much needed change, be it a different direction altogether. After-all, that’s exactly what Poch was when he was appointed. A new direction that resulted in driving towards glorious destination. Almost glorious. The Sat Nav died just after the GPS signal sent us down the wrong route. And now we’re lost.

No matter stick or twist, if you don’t have the patience you’ll have to find some. You’re going to need it regardless of the direction we decide to take.

No offense, that article is the kind of absolute drivel that is written by fans with very little appreciation of running a business with revenue and values in the billions of dollars, lets just look at a couple of statements

- Sacrificing this season if needed? fiscally irresponsable and against stakeholder interest. What arbitrary value are we willing to sacrifice? 20M/40M/100M in revenue? what PR loss (no CL), do we except?
- What clear result can sticking guarantee? (answer is nothing)
- How long do we stick for without result, 1 month? 3 months? 6 months? (complete flaw of the sticking idea, it will never be a commitment, it will be constant questioning everytime a result goes wrong)
- The club has no obligation to wait on Poch to sort out his head, identity, tactics, motivation, honestly if he isn't very close to solving that already, he isn't going to get any extra time.
- too obvious a choice? obvious choices are usually that because it makes sense (proven before)

The only thing I agree with is fudge the rotation for now, until winning becomes a habit again, try your best to win every game.

The argument for change is managers have a cycle, it is proven that in most cases change for change sake creates some upside, and very few managers ever get out of the downwards spiral once it starts
The argument for sticking seems to be, hey we like Poch, he did a job over a year ago and it seems like the nice/right thing to do.

People forget, Poch is being paid (8M/yr? IIRC) to deliver, he's not .. this isn't a charity or friendship or even if I like him thing ...
 
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