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Mario Gomez

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And I'm sure signing Javi Martinez may have added a touch of depth to their midfield too. When Toni Kroos got injured and you bring in Martinez rather than 34 year old Timoschyuk (sp) then it makes a hell of a difference. Dante stepping into Badstuber's shoes rather than a van Buyten or Demichelis also helped.

Its not like Mario Mandzukic was the only signing Bayern made this season.

The whole debate is such a non starter its just ludicrous.

Edit: and how many times has Bent scored 40 goals? Champions league goals? Averaged better than 2 in games? Crazy.
 
onlyme said:
Do you what us to re-sign Bent?

I personally want more from a striker than just goals.
Defoe has never turned me on.
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But our strikers offer no goals AND no build up!!!??? I really am lost for words.

What striker would you like then? Falcao? Cavani?
 
camspur said:
Big games? You mean like the German Cup Final where Gomez scored twice, or scoring 13 in 14 games in the CL last year and 8 in 8 the year before?

And it wouldn't just be with Gomez that we'd need to improve midfield creativity but I'd sooner Gomez up front than what we have at the moment.
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Again. If it is at all possible, please try to consider 'performance in a big game' as more than 'goals in a big game'. Obviously I cannot just wheel out statistics representative of 'performance', but ultimately, Gomez only started 2 CL games last year and 9 in the league. If you can't see that he became a much smaller part of the first team last season then you are blind. While by no means conclusive evidence, the fact that this change coincided with a glut of trophies evidences the improvement the addition of Mandzukic made. Furthermore, they went from scoring 81 and 77 league goals in 10/11 and 11/12 respectively to 98 last year, despite Mandzukic scoring markedly less than Gomez had done over the past two seasons.

If you cannot at least sympathise with the view that Gomez has limitations and that we should be aware that signing him will not fix all of our problems, then we should agree to disagree. I, like you, certainly think he is better than what we've got and that we should sign him at £7m, however I would be disappointed if he was the only striker we signed this summer (unless we were to land the right WF/CM). At the moment our team lacks creativity and Gomez won't help in this regard.
 
Armchair Expert said:
And I'm sure signing Javi Martinez may have added a touch of depth to their midfield too. When Toni Kroos got injured and you bring in Martinez rather than 34 year old Timoschyuk (sp) then it makes a hell of a difference. Dante stepping into Badstuber's shoes rather than a van Buyten or Demichelis also helped.

Its not like Mario Mandzukic was the only signing Bayern made this season.

The whole debate is such a non starter its just ludicrous.

Edit: and how many times has Bent scored 40 goals? Champions league goals? Averaged better than 2 in games? Crazy.
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Obviously their other signings made a difference. I am not trying to say Mandzukic was the sole reason they won the treble last year, nor that Gomez was the sole reason they couldn't previously.

No, the straw man you are attacking is ludicrous. I'm saying just because we aren't as big as Bayern does not mean we should (if we signed him) accept Gomez with uncritical, starry-eyed optimism that he will be the solution. Scoring 40 goals doesn't mean he will necessarily a) score even 20 goals for us, or b) work well with the team.

I would like to think AVB has a bit of a clearer view of how our strikers will interact with the team, what they will take away as well as what they offer. Hopefully he is prioritising a Mandzukic rather than a Gomez. If we can get Gomez himself for £7m it would represent extremely tidy business, but that shouldn't stop us searching for our Mandzukic (although this was seemingly Ade a year ago).
 
Armchair Expert said:
But our strikers offer no goals AND no build up!!!??? I really am lost for words.

What striker would you like then? Falcao? Cavani?
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If we could have Adebayor, Gomez and a young Adebayor/Mandzukic type (preferably one that spends a bit more time in the box than Ade himself), I would be happy with that.

No one is asking for Falcao or Cavani. There is a significant gap between these world class players and Mario Gomez and such hyperbole does not make this gap any smaller. Falcao and Cavani have few, if any, limitations - Gomez has distinct limitations that can be identified when he plays. How many times have you actually seen him play? Just because he is significantly better than what we've got doesn't mean we should not debate where his strengths and weaknesses lie...
 
Pandy said:
Again. If it is at all possible, please try to consider 'performance in a big game' as more than 'goals in a big game'. Obviously I cannot just wheel out statistics representative of 'performance', but ultimately, Gomez only started 2 CL games last year and 9 in the league. If you can't see that he became a much smaller part of the first team last season then you are blind. While by no means conclusive evidence, the fact that this change coincided with a glut of trophies evidences the improvement the addition of Mandzukic made. Furthermore, they went from scoring 81 and 77 league goals in 10/11 and 11/12 respectively to 98 last year, despite Mandzukic scoring markedly less than Gomez had done over the past two seasons.

If you cannot at least sympathise with the view that Gomez has limitations and that we should be aware that signing him will not fix all of our problems, then we should agree to disagree. I, like you, certainly think he is better than what we've got and that we should sign him at £7m, however I would be disappointed if he was the only striker we signed this summer (unless we were to land the right WF/CM). At the moment our team lacks creativity and Gomez won't help in this regard.
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What an excellent post and great points made.

We actually were just shy of a 100 goals scored last term and achieved our best ever EPL away goals total.
It is depressing reading the "our strikers are brick" posts. I prefer posts from the likes of Skyfarer and yourself giving a bit of insight.
 
in fairness Pandy, if signing Gomez meant that we had a striker who scored 2 in 3 over his time here but didn't show up in the big games (as you suggest) i think most of us would be happy with that for now - as it seems it's the smaller bread and butter games which we have most trouble with. we're not in Bayerns position, going for the Champions League and League double - we're trying to establish ourselves in the top 4 and for me Gomez is more than capable of being a first choice striker for a side trying to do that in the EPL
 
Not going to happen, same as Villa there are much better teams out there who will be in for them.
 
billyiddo said:
in fairness Pandy, if signing Gomez meant that we had a striker who scored 2 in 3 over his time here but didn't show up in the big games (as you suggest) i think most of us would be happy with that for now - as it seems it's the smaller bread and butter games which we have most trouble with. we're not in Bayerns position, going for the Champions League and League double - we're trying to establish ourselves in the top 4 and for me Gomez is more than capable of being a first choice striker for a side trying to do that in the EPL
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You're right of course, but while we CAN do better than just signing Gomez I think its worth discussing. It isn't just 'showing up in big games' though, its about overall performance. Like camspur already said, Gomez got a brace in the German Cup final, he can score on big occasions, I just doubt whether he could ever run a game in the sort of way that other types of striker could, irrespective of opposition (the example closest to home being Ade's performance in the 5-0 win over Saudi Sportswashing Machine under Redknapp - 1 goal 4 assists).

Obviously it may well turn out that we fail to even 'just' sign Gomez, but while we're all in the dark I'll continue to speculate about a dream window where we address all of our weaknesses, including a proven goalscorer (Gomez is one of the most proven around) and someone a bit more rounded. That's not to say I would be gutted if we only signed Gomez though!!
 
don't get me wrong i understand that view point totally, a players overall role to the team is very important as well as how he'd fit in to our current line up/style of play - hence my reservations over whether Benteke would be as effective for us as he is for Villa. but, having said that, although Gomez' primary asset is scoring goals and not much else, we aren't talking about a 15-20 goal striker here, he's proven himself capable of scoring 30-40 goals in a competitive league for a team which plays on the front foot - which imv is worth potentially taking a hit on his all round game. if we were to keep Bale and sign an effective/creative left sided forward to complete a front 3 with Gomez as the central forward as well as signing a playmaker for the middle to play alongside Sandro and Dembele - i think that'd have us looking not only lethal, but able to play with style and keep possession when required
 
billyiddo said:
don't get me wrong i understand that view point totally, a players overall role to the team is very important as well as how he'd fit in to our current line up/style of play - hence my reservations over whether Benteke would be as effective for us as he is for Villa. but, having said that, although Gomez' primary asset is scoring goals and not much else, we aren't talking about a 15-20 goal striker here, he's proven himself capable of scoring 30-40 goals in a competitive league for a team which plays on the front foot - which imv is worth potentially taking a hit on his all round game. if we were to keep Bale and sign an effective/creative left sided forward to complete a front 3 with Gomez as the central forward as well as signing a playmaker for the middle to play alongside Sandro and Dembele - i think that'd have us looking not only lethal, but able to play with style and keep possession when required
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I completely agree with this post, and Gomez's success would depend most on the bit in bold. Without the other signings, we would be dramatically less capable of utilising Gomez's finishing. It is only as part of a set of signings that Gomez could have a large impact on our goalscoring.
 
Pandy said:
If we could have Adebayor, Gomez and a young Adebayor/Mandzukic type (preferably one that spends a bit more time in the box than Ade himself), I would be happy with that.

No one is asking for Falcao or Cavani. There is a significant gap between these world class players and Mario Gomez and such hyperbole does not make this gap any smaller. Falcao and Cavani have few, if any, limitations - Gomez has distinct limitations that can be identified when he plays. How many times have you actually seen him play? Just because he is significantly better than what we've got doesn't mean we should not debate where his strengths and weaknesses lie...
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I've seen him play live about 5 times, and on TV maybe 60 I suppose. I live in Munich. Every single Bayern game is plastered across the city.

I think everyone has exhausted their points here. However, I must say your comment about my "straw man" argument is silly. You raised Darren Bent as a comparison to Gomez, not me. There's nothing straw man about me argument. You said you want us to sign a "young Ade" or "Mandzukic." Where are they? Who could we sign that fits your description? Jimmy Kong?

I'd be surprised if we get to sign Gomez anyway. Bigger teams than us will be looking at his situation very closely.
 
Armchair Expert said:
I've seen him play live about 5 times, and on TV maybe 60 I suppose. I live in Munich. Every single Bayern game is plastered across the city.

I think everyone has exhausted their points here. However, I must say your comment about my "straw man" argument is silly. You raised Darren Bent as a comparison to Gomez, not me. There's nothing straw man about me argument. You said you want us to sign a "young Ade" or "Mandzukic." Where are they? Who could we sign that fits your description? Jimmy Kong?

I'd be surprised if we get to sign Gomez anyway. Bigger teams than us will be looking at his situation very closely.
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Cool, I was only asking because you equated people having concerns over the weaker sides of Gomez's game with them wanting 'Falcao or Cavani'. If you have seen him play so many times, surely you know there is a rather large difference between Falcao and Cavani on the one hand and Gomez on the other (unless you are unfamiliar with the former two). Or I'm just wrong, you've seen him play more than me, but hey that's my opinion.

The straw man was the idea that I believe Mandzukic replacing Gomez as first choice was the sole reason for Bayern's success. And as such that Gomez is some sort of terrible footballer unfit to play for Tottenham despite scoring 40 goals. Which is simply not true.

My point was that football is not black and white. Statistics are our best, but still highly inaccurate, representations of what actually happens on the pitch - goals do not equal 'attacking contribution' (which you can gain a better perspective of by also examining team goals per season, which I quoted in an earlier post, demonstrating the potential positives of not using a raw 'goal machine' like Gomez).

And :lol: I certainly did not compare D. Bent and Mario Gomez...

As for who we sign - I don't know, I am not a scout. However, my first suggestion would be Roberto Soldado: similar age, goalscoring pedigree, more rounded and probably available relatively cheaply.
 
Spursalot said:
That's the opposite end of the scale really, we should be looking for someone between the two groups.
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If we shouldn't think about buying players of the calibre of Villa and Gomez then we should be "realistic" and expect Bale, Vertonghen and Lloris to leave. I think Villa and Gomez actually fit in to the group you mention, it's players like Ronaldo and Messi that are "out of our league" both Villa and Gomez are top strikers but not by a long way regular first team choices for either their national or club sides.
 
camspur said:
If we shouldn't think about buying players of the calibre of Villa and Gomez then we should be "realistic" and expect Bale, Vertonghen and Lloris to leave. I think Villa and Gomez actually fit in to the group you mention, it's players like Ronaldo and Messi that are "out of our league" both Villa and Gomez are top strikers but not by a long way regular first team choices for either their national or club sides.
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I don't think that means anything of the sort. Players on wages that far exceed ours (Villa) and champions league winners (Gomez) are high end strikers.


There are bigger teams in that want them, teams with champions league and that can afford to pay them far higher wages than we can. I am of the hope that we are not spending too much time indulging these at the club, and have our eye on the next Michu/Benteke, as that will make us far more of a force to be reckoned with and would be a far more constructive use of our time and money.
 
Spursalot said:
I don't think that means anything of the sort. Players on wages that far exceed ours (Villa) and champions league winners (Gomez) are high end strikers.


There are bigger teams in that want them, teams with champions league and that can afford to pay them far higher wages than we can. I am of the hope that we are not spending too much time indulging these at the club, and have our eye on the next Michu/Benteke, as that will make us far more of a force to be reckoned with and would be a far more constructive use of our time and money.
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Whilst signing any player is a gamble, trying to get the next Michu or Benteke is more of a gamble than going for a Villa or Gomez and at this point in time if we have any hopes of keeping Bale, Lloris and Jan V (perhaps) beyond this next season, 2 at tops we need one or two of those gambles to come off. I'm happy (though not convinced of the veracity) that we are supposed to be aiming high. Two new strikers would be good - one 'proven' highish calibre, one with high potential. Don't see the issue.
 
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