Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Finney Is Back]

We do press higher up at times, and more in some games. Leeds betting perhaps the prime example this season. But we've definitely seen it used more against smaller teams, though far from all of the time.

I agree that a good high press has to be systematic and well drilled to work.

No defensive system will work well without the basics of intensity and aggression. Playing a high defensive line, attempting to press, but without the required intensity and aggression would be dreadful.

Pressing, as in putting the opponents under pressure, playing with aggression and intensity can happen both with a high pressing system, a medium block or a low block. Whenever the opponents reach the point of the pitch where pressing is supposed to start it has to actually start happening to work.

That didn't happen nearly enough against Arsenal. No tactical instructions will fix that imo unless it's paired with the required effort from the players. To me that's partly up to the manager to instill, but in the NLD particularly it speaks more to failures of the players than the manager if that doesn't happen.

Perhaps putting it slightly over the top. But if Mourinho said absolutely nothing on effort, intensity and aggression before the game or during the buildup I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that in the NLD. If Mourinho didn't even bother to show up for the pre match team talk I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that to a reasonable degree.

These are basics. I expect effort to vary over a season, to fluctuate with form and fitness levels, to drop a bit in smaller games compared to bigger games. To drop to this extent, for the NLD, the players have to shoulder the brunt of that.

Actually pressing cannot happen with a low or medium block. In those formations the opposition will always have an easy ball backwards. Pressing doesn’t just mean putting pressure on the opponent who has the ball. It is instead about giving the opponent no passing option at all, or more typically ensuring that they funnel the ball to a specific position (typically either deep and wide, or central at the base of the midfield and then be ready to instantly close that player down while also blocking all of his passing lanes so that you turnover the ball and are then only one pass away from a potential one on one with their keeper, with the opposition still in their ‘we have the ball’ mode so seeking space instead of defending their opponent. That cannot be done with a low or mid block where you are allowing the opposition to have the ball in their own half or even the first third of our half.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And the players stopped listening to the manager

I don’t think so. In that Bayern game we got humped in we pressed brilliantly in that first half. Made a brilliant team look average.

The chairman got the manager 3 new players in 2 years and then sacked him before the 3 new players were fit and available.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don’t think so. In that Bayern game we got humped in we pressed brilliantly in that first half. Made a brilliant team look average.

The chairman got the manager 3 new players in 2 years and then sacked him before the 3 new players were fit and available.

Maybe
We don’t know
That Bayern frost half was immense and only poor finishing cost us
But so many games before and after it we didn’t press at all

 

[Diamond Lights]

Jose put an attacking team out on paper then the whole team sat back.

either that's tactical instruction to sit back, or the players aren't responding to the manager.

which is it?

For me, it's 1000% tactical instruction. It's too many games and too many times.

During the Olympiacos vs Arsenal game on Thurs, a gooner in our football chat said "all Spurs have to do on Sunday is press us high up the pitch and we'll drop a gonad". I responded saying "no worries there then, as that's literally the opposite of how Jose plays".

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Jose put an attacking team out on paper then the whole team sat back.

either that's tactical instruction to sit back, or the players aren't responding to the manager.

which is it?

For me, it's 1000% tactical instruction. It's too many games and too many times.

During the Olympiacos vs Arsenal game on Thurs, a gooner in our football chat said "all Spurs have to do on Sunday is press us high up the pitch and we'll drop a gonad*". I responded saying "no worries there then, as that's non-figuratively the opposite of how Jose plays".

It wasn’t the case though with that line up in the 3 previous games
And Toby has said it was the players...

 

[Diamond Lights]

It wasn’t the case though with that line up in the 3 previous games
And Toby has said it was the players...

So the moment we meet a half decent team we can't even get out of our box? But then with 10mins to go with the same team we're suddenly battering them?

Sorry, to me it's clear a day it was tactical instruction to sit deep, and not move forward out of certain zones. Reguilon didn't get forward until 35th min onwards, that's instruction. It's not his natural game that's for usre.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So the moment we meet a half decent team we can't even get out of our box? But then with 10mins to go with the same team we're suddenly battering them?

Sorry, to me it's clear a day it was tactical instruction to sit deep, and not move forward out of certain zones. Reguilon didn't get forward until 35th min onwards, that's instruction. It's not his natural game that's for usre.

The 10 minutes to go coincided with them defending a lead and making some subs
Arteta said as much himself
But hey why play the same team that attacked the week before and ask them to play just like a Spurs team that lined up differently
I personally don’t believe he would pick that line up to play the way you described
I also think that yet again we have another player saying the okayed didn’t work to the plan but clearly their either all in message or their not...
arsenal pinned us back from the first kick
That’s clear
Beyond that it’s speculation
Hence why I would revert back to what a player says who was there and played, knowing it’s a reflection on them
I believe now that Harry has done it, Hugo has, Moussa has and now Toby.
It’s odd but it’s senior players so maybe they are towing the party line...

 

[elltrev]

I think people generally underestimate the impact of the opposing team when analysing whether their own team played attackingly or defensively. E.g. in this match:

I think in the first half we struggled to play attackingly because Arsenal pressed super aggressively a lot of the time, and we were useless at bypassing it. If you can't bypass their press, get in behind them, and force them to run back towards their own goal, then you will not be able to get out of your own half. I re-watched the first 15 minutes for the third time, and the one time we bypassed their press was when Reguilon hit a nice cross-field pass - Arsenal players then had to funnel back towards their own box, and Bale ended up hitting a cross straight to their keeper. But we didn't have the quality and/or preparation to do that more regularly.

I think towards the end of the game we were allowed to play attackingly because Arsenal dropped deeper and pressed less, presumably because a) they were too fatigued to press, and/or b) it seems to be human nature to want to 'protect' your lead by protecting your own goal.

So it's less that we decided to attack towards the end of the game, and more that Arsenal let us attack towards the end of the game.

(Of course we could have tried to change this dynamic had we pressed them as high up the pitch as they pressed us, but I think that clearly wasn't our plan).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think people generally underestimate the impact of the opposing team when analysing whether their own team played attackingly or defensively. E.g. in this match:

I think in the first half we struggled to play attackingly because Arsenal pressed super aggressively a lot of the time, and we were useless at bypassing it. If you can't bypass their press, get in behind them, and force them to run back towards their own goal, then you will not be able to get out of your own half. I re-watched the first 15 minutes for the third time, and the one time we bypassed their press was when Reguilon hit a nice cross-field pass - Arsenal players then had to funnel back towards their own box, and Bale ended up hitting a cross straight to their keeper. But we didn't have the quality and/or preparation to do that more regularly.

I think towards the end of the game we were allowed to play attackingly because Arsenal dropped deeper and pressed less, presumably because a) they were too fatigued to press, and/or b) it seems to be human nature to want to 'protect' your lead by protecting your own goal.

So it's less that we decided to attack towards the end of the game, and more that Arsenal let us attack towards the end of the game.

(Of course we could have tried to change this dynamic had we pressed them as high up the pitch as they pressed us, but I think that clearly wasn't our plan).

Is that Tobys comments?

 

[elltrev]

Is that Tobys comments?

No just based on my own watching (and re-watching!) of the game.

 

[90291Spur]

The 10 minutes to go coincided with them defending a lead and making some subs
Arteta said as much himself
But hey why play the same team that attacked the week before and ask them to play just like a Spurs team that lined up differently
I personally don’t believe he would pick that line up to play the way you described
I also think that yet again we have another player saying the okayed didn’t work to the plan but clearly their either all in message or their not...
arsenal pinned us back from the first kick
That’s clear
Beyond that it’s speculation
Hence why I would revert back to what a player says who was there and played, knowing it’s a reflection on them
I believe now that Harry has done it, Hugo has, Moussa has and now Toby.
It’s odd but it’s senior players so maybe they are towing the party line...

The ten minutes to go also coincided with the last ten minutes of the match. We were losing and had to try and win the game. The fact that we actually managed to put them under sustained pressure when down to 10 men is one of the things that frustrates.

 

[Bishop]

We can press, it's part of football, every player/coach knows how to do it with some caveats
- Press all the time?/press at moments of game or within certain blocks
- Idea that one of the game's most successful managers can't coach is just classic internet flimflam

Team effort was part of it
- Too many games, too little rotation for certain players, not enough ownership (to me, Kane, Ndombele & PEH often set the bar, if they are flat, the team follows)

Team setup another
- This team was attacking, a team that expected space, expected to play, the opposition nullified that and they didn't respond well
- Doherty (not spacegoating) is just a bit of a nothing pick right now, not attacking like Aurier, not a defensively solid as Tanganga
- Son sub cost us the opportunity to adjust as much as we potentially could have

The site is a bit more fun after a loss, but as someone said earlier, perhaps we are just overthinking it
- Yes, the Scum came out the gates hard at us, made us uncomfortable and unfortunately took the win
- However, a scuffed shot that required a deflection, a jammy pelanty and two shots from outside the box were their big threat against one of our worst performances of the season?

Every team has a brick day at the office (City, Pool, United have all loss by 5+ goal margins this season)

The broader/sustained (pre Jose, pre Poch) issue with this team is we go on mini runs, 6-10 games of good results then brick the bed, sometimes that works as a kick up the ass and we go again, sometimes it doesn't. But we need longer/sustained good runs to truly step up.

That is on the manager, he needs to figure it out.

Why is it nonsense? Mourinho has never used a pressing system? You're assuming he's capable of training it based on 0 evidence. The little evidence we do have suggests he can not because we haven't even gotten close to playing a pressing system under him assuming that is indeed what he wants to do.

I have no problem not pressing, there is nothing that says one must play a press my only issue with it is his seeming to claim to be trying to press because if that's the case he's absolutely failing.

I don't believe he's trying to press despite the noise.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think people generally underestimate the impact of the opposing team when analysing whether their own team played attackingly or defensively. E.g. in this match:

I think in the first half we struggled to play attackingly because Arsenal pressed super aggressively a lot of the time, and we were useless at bypassing it. If you can't bypass their press, get in behind them, and force them to run back towards their own goal, then you will not be able to get out of your own half. I re-watched the first 15 minutes for the third time, and the one time we bypassed their press was when Reguilon hit a nice cross-field pass - Arsenal players then had to funnel back towards their own box, and Bale ended up hitting a cross straight to their keeper. But we didn't have the quality and/or preparation to do that more regularly.

I think towards the end of the game we were allowed to play attackingly because Arsenal dropped deeper and pressed less, presumably because a) they were too fatigued to press, and/or b) it seems to be human nature to want to 'protect' your lead by protecting your own goal.

So it's less that we decided to attack towards the end of the game, and more that Arsenal let us attack towards the end of the game.

(Of course we could have tried to change this dynamic had we pressed them as high up the pitch as they pressed us, but I think that clearly wasn't our plan).

I think people drastically underrate how important Hojberg and his partner are to everything we do. Our bad spells have clashed with Hojberg not being on it, being tired, out of form. Within 10 minutes on Sunday it was clear he was off his game. Tanguy too (though Thursday he was assaulted IMO). We can play around teams pressing our poorer defensive distributors if those two are on. They weren't. Loads of misplaced passes from that area. In fact, the goons gambled on Sanchez being one of the weak links, and he looked like he could deal with it. A shame then that Hojberg and Ndombele were off it.

 

[AdamB]

I think people drastically underrate how important Hojberg and his partner are to everything we do. Our bad spells have clashed with Hojberg not being on it, being tired, out of form. Within 10 minutes on Sunday it was clear he was off his game. Tanguy too (though Thursday he was assaulted IMO). We can play around teams pressing our poorer defensive distributors if those two are on. They weren't. Loads of misplaced passes from that area. In fact, the goons gambled on Sanchez being one of the weak links, and he looked like he could deal with it. A shame then that Hojberg and Ndombele were off it.

I'd quite like it if Ndombele is given Thursday off and can rest at home - he looked knackered at the weekend - but given PEH is suspended, I'm not sure that Jose will take that chance. Hopefully GLC will be back so he, Winks and Sissoko can get the job done...but I think Jose will want the insurance policy unforunately

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The ten minutes to go also coincided with the last ten minutes of the match. We were losing and had to try and win the game. The fact that we actually managed to put them under sustained pressure when down to 10 men is one of the things that frustrates.

True
But as Arteta said they made changes themselves
Teams regularly do that to defend a lead

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think people drastically underrate how important Hojberg and his partner are to everything we do. Our bad spells have clashed with Hojberg not being on it, being tired, out of form. Within 10 minutes on Sunday it was clear he was off his game. Tanguy too (though Thursday he was assaulted IMO). We can play around teams pressing our poorer defensive distributors if those two are on. They weren't. Loads of misplaced passes from that area. In fact, the goons gambled on Sanchez being one of the weak links, and he looked like he could deal with it. A shame then that Hojberg and Ndombele were off it.

I don’t think we under estimate him now
The guys huge for us
But he did end up covering the over exposed right hand side which meant Tanguy was left in his own too
It was a mess TBH

 

[90291Spur]

True
But as Arteta said they made changes themselves
Teams regularly do that to defend a lead

For me the biggest issue from the NLD was how the team - whether that be through Jose's instruction or their own abilities (and remember, Jose came in as the guy with the know-how), did not adapt to how Arse were playing. All of us could see their attacking plan yet there was no shift to stem the flow of those attacks down our right side. And lo and behold the almost inevitable minute-to-go-in-the-half goal came from EXACTLY there. Even with Son going off, shift Lamela to the right, Bale to the left, let Lucas be in the middle OR some other formation shift to make them adjust their play.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

For me the biggest issue from the NLD was how the team - whether that be through Jose's instruction or their own abilities (and remember, Jose came in as the guy with the know-how), did not adapt to how Arse were playing. All of us could see their attacking plan yet there was no shift to stem the flow of those attacks down our right side. And lo and behold the almost inevitable minute-to-go-in-the-half goal came from EXACTLY there. Even with Son going off, shift Lamela to the right, Bale to the left, let Lucas be in the middle OR some other formation shift to make them adjust their play.

It was weak and meak
TBH it was like so many derbies before when they were the better side too and we were the team being aggressive and in their face
It was also typical of how these derbies have unfolded over the last 10 years. The away side has won once in that period.
The lack of fight and effort was just horrible to me

 

[thfcsteff]

For me the biggest issue from the NLD was how the team - whether that be through Jose's instruction or their own abilities (and remember, Jose came in as the guy with the know-how), did not adapt to how Arse were playing. All of us could see their attacking plan yet there was no shift to stem the flow of those attacks down our right side. And lo and behold the almost inevitable minute-to-go-in-the-half goal came from EXACTLY there. Even with Son going off, shift Lamela to the right, Bale to the left, let Lucas be in the middle OR some other formation shift to make them adjust their play.

For once I think all that was tried but to no avail. We were flat. Lucas should've remained central I agree, and I'd love a way to go two up top with Vinny and Kane when chasing a goal.

I personally would've had Aurier on at HT.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don’t think so. In that Bayern game we got humped in we pressed brilliantly in that first half. Made a brilliant team look average.

The chairman got the manager 3 new players in 2 years and then sacked him before the 3 new players were fit and available.

I still maintain that first 44 mins against Bayern was some of the best CL football we played. Better finishing and luck would've seen us three goals to the good at the half.