Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Bishop]

I haven't read all the posts but the jist I'm sort of seeing is Mourinho asking the players to press and them not doing it. I think there is an important thing to say here, you can ask for the press but if you haven't taught how to do it then they are just empty words.

Emery at Arsenal was the same, if you heard his press conferences he was all about the desire to press but it was clear in all his time at Arsenal they were not a pressing side, now look at the introduction of Arteta and slowly but surely he's making them into a side that presses. You don't become a pressing side via words in a press conference of even on the touchline, it is learnt via time on the training pitch, session after session tactical instruction teaching players where they need to be, the spaces they need to occupy and if you don't actually know how to achieve the tactic then they are just failed words.

We know what a pressing side looks like, we were one of the preeminent examples under Poch. We play nothing like that now. A deep defensive line and a mid to low block are the antithesis of a pressing side. You play high and press the opposition with numbers challenging them directly for the ball and blocking any passing lanes until you either win it, or are bypassed and have to react defensively. We do not do this.

It's super evident. On Sunday whenever we had the ball in our backline Arsenal pressed forward, smothering us and giving no easy outlet causing poor ball retention on our part and easy turnovers for them. On the other hand whenever Arsenal had the ball we retreated to the halfway line and then tried to challenge. That's not a press, that's a mid block and there isn't anything inherently wrong with playing within a mid block but to pretend that we attempted to press or that was the tactical approach seems farcical to me, because if he really did send them out with the intent to press high and smother then that's even more concerning because we never even got close to implementing that.

I'd rather think he intentionally set us up to counter as is his usual tactic rather than press because the latter suggests he is incompetent.

 

[Bishop]

Has Jose's previous teams ever been known to play a pressing game?

No, like Bedford said he's had a mixed bag of tactical approaches but pressing? Never.

I don't think he knows how to coach it evidenced on a just over a season worth of games.

 

[braineclipse]

I haven't read all the posts but the jist I'm sort of seeing is Mourinho asking the players to press and them not doing it. I think there is an important thing to say here, you can ask for the press but if you haven't taught how to do it then they are just empty words.

Emery at Arsenal was the same, if you heard his press conferences he was all about the desire to press but it was clear in all his time at Arsenal they were not a pressing side, now look at the introduction of Arteta and slowly but surely he's making them into a side that presses. You don't become a pressing side via words in a press conference of even on the touchline, it is learnt via time on the training pitch, session after session tactical instruction teaching players where they need to be, the spaces they need to occupy and if you don't actually know how to achieve the tactic then they are just failed words.

We know what a pressing side looks like, we were one of the preeminent examples under Poch. We play nothing like that now. A deep defensive line and a mid to low block are the antithesis of a pressing side. You play high and press the opposition with numbers challenging them directly for the ball and blocking any passing lanes until you either win it, or are bypassed and have to react defensively. We do not do this.

It's super evident. On Sunday whenever we had the ball in our backline Arsenal pressed forward, smothering us and giving no easy outlet causing poor ball retention on our part and easy turnovers for them. On the other hand whenever Arsenal had the ball we retreated to the halfway line and then tried to challenge. That's not a press, that's a mid block and there isn't anything inherently wrong with playing within a mid block but to pretend that we attempted to press or that was the tactical approach seems farcical to me, because if he really did send them out with the intent to press high and smother then that's even more concerning because we never even got close to implementing that.

I'd rather think he intentionally set us up to counter as is his usual tactic rather than press because the latter suggests he is incompetent.

Our problems with pressing started before Mourinho came in. Last 8-10 months of Poch our press wasn't good.

We can't play a super high press style with Bale in the team imo. Not against good teams anyway. I don't see a problem with us not pressing high up the pitch in a game like this.

You can put players under pressure, play with intensity and aggression from the front players and midfield in a medium or low block. I'd argue you have to to make that work.

If our players need that concept coached into them at this point we're screwed, but I don't think that's the case. If our players need to be coached into understanding that having several midfielders and front players with zero tackles, zero attempted tackles, zero fouls, zero interceptions at half time doesn't work we're screwed. I don't think that's the case. Previous games have shown us that's not the case.

If it was fatigue, mental fatigue, just going out there with the wrong attitude or a combination I don't know. Either way that's both on the players and the manager to various degrees.

It's the fudging NLD. If Mourinho can't expect the players to show up in terms of intensity and aggression for the NLD regardless of what he says or does the players need to take a long hard look at themselves imo.

 

[glasgowspur]

A football match involves plans before and during a match as and when adjustments become necessary (and also if those adjustments are possible given personal, tactical acumen etc).
It's how a coach coaches his team and how a coach is judged.

I don't think i or others are criticizing blindly at all. We have a long body of work to look at now and despite recenty being on the front-foot, it's not like it was the first time we played such insipid, cowardly football under Jose: see many games last year and this season. Arsenal are our main rivals but we seemed so scared of them in the same way we seemed when we played Liverpool, Chelsea, Brighton, Palace away and Wolves. And Arsenal are having such a poor season as well.

When it happens more often than not, the questions inevitably will shift away from individual players or individuals moments to the one thing that has been constant for a year and 4 months now: and that is the manager.
It's one thing 'picking a team', it's another coaching them how to start the game and also recognizing the tactics of the opponent in-game and working to adjust and nullify them.

It's clear now that our manager seems to have lost the art/ability to do such things when hes not playing an opponent with far lesser resources in personnel than his (and games against the likes of Brighton and Fulham show that the problem is often worse than we might realise...)

Except its been going on longer than Jose has been here, so it falls back to the players.
I really don't see this as as simple as a managerial or player problem.
Our ambition is greater than our abilities at the moment.
Only one man can change that.

 

[AdamB]

Our problems with pressing started before Mourinho came in. Last 8-10 months of Poch our press wasn't good.

Enough of the team are different to the Poch years for it to not be comparable - Bale, Doherty, Ndombele (mainly) Reguilon, Hojbjerg from the starting 11 on Sunday weren't here under Poch

More broadly though, I'm not necessarily sure this is all about pressing - simply defending 10 yards higher up compresses the opposition and gets us more in their faces

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Enough of the team are different to the Poch years for it to not be comparable - Bale, Doherty, Ndombele (mainly) Reguilon, Hojbjerg from the starting 11 on Sunday weren't here under Poch

More broadly though, I'm not necessarily sure this is all about pressing - simply defending 10 yards higher up compresses the opposition and gets us more in their faces

100%
But to do that the players need to actually put the effort in to do it
That performance at the weekend was lazy
Too many players literally walked around
There was so little effort to make it hard for arsenal and was so passive

 

[braineclipse]

Enough of the team are different to the Poch years for it to not be comparable - Bale, Doherty, Ndombele (mainly) Reguilon, Hojbjerg from the starting 11 on Sunday weren't here under Poch

More broadly though, I'm not necessarily sure this is all about pressing - simply defending 10 yards higher up compresses the opposition and gets us more in their faces

It was more a point in response to the point being made in the post I quoted. We were pressing monsters for a good while under Pochettino and I thought that was awesome. But for whatever reason we weren't able to sustain that.

Being 10 yards higher up does nothing without intensity and aggression imo. I think we were 10 yards higher up against Arsenal than we were when we beat City earlier in the season. But with the players standing off, not putting opponents under pressure, that's not in itself a positive.

Low block, medium block, high pressure or 4 players surrounding the opposition penalty area for a goal kick, no matter what, that intensity from the players is so important. Without that the defence will be put in very difficult situations rather frequently against even reasonably good teams.

 

[AdamB]

400%
But to do that the players need to actually put the effort in to do it
That performance at the weekend was lazy
Too many players non-figuratively walked around
There was so little effort to make it hard for arsenal and was so passive

I'm don't disagree, but the post which I replied to was someone linking problems at the end of the Poch era to the problem on Sunday, rather than general effort (and defending higher up isn't really much effort at all - its about leadership, whether from a player on the pitch or management)

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

400%
But to do that the players need to actually put the effort in to do it
That performance at the weekend was lazy
Too many players non-figuratively walked around
There was so little effort to make it hard for arsenal and was so passive

At a glance it did look lazy but in the preceding games they certainly didn't. So was it tiredness? You could say 2nd half at Fulham we looked tired? But I don't even think it's that.

I think regardless of what we've been told/setup to do, we get trumped by what the opposition have been told and setup to do. (Hence why we can't work out whose fault it is) Call it being outcoached or whatever but I think it's more than just coincidence that we struggle against what are called a modern or system manager. Rogers, Pep, Klopp, Potter, Parker, Arteta, Nuno. I just think their approach is so more refined. Our 'tactics' just look so basic. You could argue it's good to give players freedom to express themselves and read the game as it unfolds BUT I think the other method has proved it's worth, players are better treated as robots. Plus it's the only root to get a team playing greater than the sum of its parts. The magic happens when you have the system but also some world class players (the downfall of Brighton Fulham etc). Ironic really, when we have 3 world class strikers but no system.

I'm not saying Jose is a dinosaur, but like Wenger his star is fading. He's just not the smartest guy in the room anymore.

 

[Bishop]

Our problems with pressing started before Mourinho came in. Last 8-10 months of Poch our press wasn't good.

We can't play a super high press style with Bale in the team imo. Not against good teams anyway. I don't see a problem with us not pressing high up the pitch in a game like this.

You can put players under pressure, play with intensity and aggression from the front players and midfield in a medium or low block. I'd argue you have to to make that work.

If our players need that concept coached into them at this point we're screwed, but I don't think that's the case. If our players need to be coached into understanding that having several midfielders and front players with zero tackles, zero attempted tackles, zero fouls, zero interceptions at half time doesn't work we're screwed. I don't think that's the case. Previous games have shown us that's not the case.

If it was fatigue, mental fatigue, just going out there with the wrong attitude or a combination I don't know. Either way that's both on the players and the manager to various degrees.

It's the fudging NLD. If Mourinho can't expect the players to show up in terms of intensity and aggression for the NLD regardless of what he says or does the players need to take a long hard look at themselves imo.

400%
But to do that the players need to actually put the effort in to do it
That performance at the weekend was lazy
Too many players non-figuratively walked around
There was so little effort to make it hard for arsenal and was so passive

Effort is of course important and in a press doubly so but it also has to be directed effort. A successful press isn't just the players running around like mad men challenging anyone they can see and getting pulled completely out of position. It's a systemic use of player effort to close spaces and make it difficult for the opposition to play their game. Again we saw it under Poch, we know what pressing looks like.

Sunday wasn't even a half hearted press, it just wasn't. We sat in a mid block with low energy. All the other criticisms are correct, low energy, no spirit etc but we didn't press and if we were supposed to something went very wrong on the training ground.

I don't even think a lack pressing is the core issue but I do find it concerning that the narrative is that we didn't we clearly didn't even try or haven't been coached to press.

 

[glasgowspur]

If you are going to press it needs to done as a team and targeted.
Jose knows this, his man u team done it to sanchez when they played ajax.
Sideshow Bob is the player we should have been targeting yesterday, not that clever, not as good as he thinks is and prone to mistakes. Yet we let him wander around with the ball under no pressure.
Doesn't make sense.

 

[braineclipse]

Effort is of course important and in a press doubly so but it also has to be directed effort. A successful press isn't just the players running around like mad men challenging anyone they can see and getting pulled completely out of position. It's a systemic use of player effort to close spaces and make it difficult for the opposition to play their game. Again we saw it under Poch, we know what pressing looks like.

Sunday wasn't even a half hearted press, it just wasn't. We sat in a mid block with low energy. All the other criticisms are correct, low energy, no spirit etc but we didn't press and if we were supposed to something went very wrong on the training ground.

I don't even think a lack pressing is the core issue but I do find it concerning that the narrative is that we didn't we clearly didn't even try or haven't been coached to press.

We do press higher up at times, and more in some games. Leeds betting perhaps the prime example this season. But we've definitely seen it used more against smaller teams, though far from all of the time.

I agree that a good high press has to be systematic and well drilled to work.

No defensive system will work well without the basics of intensity and aggression. Playing a high defensive line, attempting to press, but without the required intensity and aggression would be dreadful.

Pressing, as in putting the opponents under pressure, playing with aggression and intensity can happen both with a high pressing system, a medium block or a low block. Whenever the opponents reach the point of the pitch where pressing is supposed to start it has to actually start happening to work.

That didn't happen nearly enough against Arsenal. No tactical instructions will fix that imo unless it's paired with the required effort from the players. To me that's partly up to the manager to instill, but in the NLD particularly it speaks more to failures of the players than the manager if that doesn't happen.

Perhaps putting it slightly over the top. But if Mourinho said absolutely nothing on effort, intensity and aggression before the game or during the buildup I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that in the NLD. If Mourinho didn't even bother to show up for the pre match team talk I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that to a reasonable degree.

These are basics. I expect effort to vary over a season, to fluctuate with form and fitness levels, to drop a bit in smaller games compared to bigger games. To drop to this extent, for the NLD, the players have to shoulder the brunt of that.

 

[Raziel]

We do press higher up at times, and more in some games. Leeds betting perhaps the prime example this season. But we've definitely seen it used more against smaller teams, though far from all of the time.

I agree that a good high press has to be systematic and well drilled to work.

No defensive system will work well without the basics of intensity and aggression. Playing a high defensive line, attempting to press, but without the required intensity and aggression would be dreadful.

Pressing, as in putting the opponents under pressure, playing with aggression and intensity can happen both with a high pressing system, a medium block or a low block. Whenever the opponents reach the point of the pitch where pressing is supposed to start it has to actually start happening to work.

That didn't happen nearly enough against Arsenal. No tactical instructions will fix that imo unless it's paired with the required effort from the players. To me that's partly up to the manager to instill, but in the NLD particularly it speaks more to failures of the players than the manager if that doesn't happen.

Perhaps putting it slightly over the top. But if Mourinho said absolutely nothing on effort, intensity and aggression before the game or during the buildup I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that in the NLD. If Mourinho didn't even bother to show up for the pre match team talk I think it's fair to expect the players to deliver that to a reasonable degree.

These are basics. I expect effort to vary over a season, to fluctuate with form and fitness levels, to drop a bit in smaller games compared to bigger games. To drop to this extent, for the NLD, the players have to shoulder the brunt of that.

We can press, it's part of football, every player/coach knows how to do it with some caveats
- Press all the time?/press at moments of game or within certain blocks
- Idea that one of the game's most successful managers can't coach is just classic internet flimflam

Team effort was part of it
- Too many games, too little rotation for certain players, not enough ownership (to me, Kane, Ndombele & PEH often set the bar, if they are flat, the team follows)

Team setup another
- This team was attacking, a team that expected space, expected to play, the opposition nullified that and they didn't respond well
- Doherty (not spacegoating) is just a bit of a nothing pick right now, not attacking like Aurier, not a defensively solid as Tanganga
- Son sub cost us the opportunity to adjust as much as we potentially could have

The site is a bit more fun after a loss, but as someone said earlier, perhaps we are just overthinking it
- Yes, the Scum came out the gates hard at us, made us uncomfortable and unfortunately took the win
- However, a scuffed shot that required a deflection, a jammy penalty and two shots from outside the box were their big threat against one of our worst performances of the season?

Every team has a brick day at the office (City, Pool, United have all loss by 5+ goal margins this season)

The broader/sustained (pre Jose, pre Poch) issue with this team is we go on mini runs, 6-10 games of good results then brick the bed, sometimes that works as a kick up the ass and we go again, sometimes it doesn't. But we need longer/sustained good runs to truly step up.

That is on the manager, he needs to figure it out.

 

[Junior19]

I'm not sure "tired" is the correct expression, but we're looking worried, scared, and downright afraid at times.
Particularly versus Arsenal this weekend.
Several times we clearly indicate that we wanted to play out from the back, the ball goes out to Toby, back and forth a bit, but when we try to play up to midfield Ndobmele is hiding/to closed down, and Højbjerg is also covered, or dropping down towards Toby.

Ball goes up, nowhere to turn, back to defender, drop 10 meter down, entire team follows. It is not always the _intent_ to be that deep, but we're unable to get up. Frustrated long kick from Toby or Hugo up the pitch, unable to win ball, Arsenal play ball. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, we have to move the entire team higher. One of the most eyecatching things about Moussa Dembele in his prime, and Christian Eriksen also, was the ability to wait until they _nearly_ were overrun before playing the ball. By doing so they dragged opposition in towards then, ie away from the receiver of the pass, and then by stepping through the pressure, also creating space for themselves again. To a certain extent even our defenders did this when we were at the best. It is higher risk, but the gain if done right is tremendous.

We have one player who are capable of doing that today, in Ndombele, but he went AWOL on sunday, and should probably have been subbed earlier. Moura is also capable, but then we need to get up there first. Also, Dele in his prime will do this, as will Kane. But there is a 60 meter gap up to them filled with players who don't trust their ability enough to do it, or are unable to do it.

 

[billyiddo]

Some of you seem to be confusing closing down with a pressing game, i dare say Mourinho is as well judging by the evidence.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Some of you seem to be confusing closing down with a pressing game, i dare say Mourinho is as well judging by the evidence.

We did neither
The lack of effort to me was startling
Even when we were poor we worked hard vs arsenal
I don’t know the impact of factious or Covid but what we saw at the weekend was a very lazy performance to me. Lots of passengers

 

[billyiddo]

We did neither
The lack of effort to me was startling
Even when we were poor we worked hard vs arsenal

I agree.

wrt to pressing personally I'd say i haven't seen us play a pressing game at any point this season or last - we've sometimes played high up the pitch and sometimes we've had players like Moura or Lamela putting the effort in closing down but an actual coordinated pressing game? Nothing like it

 

[tynesidespur]

I'm not sure "tired" is the correct expression, but we're looking worried, scared, and downright afraid at times.
Particularly versus Arsenal this weekend.
Several times we clearly indicate that we wanted to play out from the back, the ball goes out to Toby, back and forth a bit, but when we try to play up to midfield Ndobmele is hiding/to closed down, and Højbjerg is also covered, or dropping down towards Toby.

Ball goes up, nowhere to turn, back to defender, drop 10 meter down, entire team follows. It is not always the _intent_ to be that deep, but we're unable to get up. Frustrated long kick from Toby or Hugo up the pitch, unable to win ball, Arsenal play ball. Rinse and repeat.

Yes, we have to move the entire team higher. One of the most eyecatching things about Moussa Dembele in his prime, and Christian Eriksen also, was the ability to wait until they _nearly_ were overrun before playing the ball. By doing so they dragged opposition in towards then, ie away from the receiver of the pass, and then by stepping through the pressure, also creating space for themselves again. To a certain extent even our defenders did this when we were at the best. It is higher risk, but the gain if done right is tremendous.

We have one player who are capable of doing that today, in Ndombele, but he went AWOL on sunday, and should probably have been subbed earlier. Moura is also capable, but then we need to get up there first. Also, Dele in his prime will do this, as will Kane. But there is a 60 meter gap up to them filled with players who don't trust their ability enough to do it, or are unable to do it.

This is a great point. Ndombele is the only current option in the team who is "press resistant" in midfield. Very similar to Dembele. But if he's not at it we have no means to play out.

Sissoko is at the opposite end of the scale. The only time we've seen him have the ability to drive through midfield was when Poch setup a very specific system with him on the right of a diamond and a licence to drive forwards. Under the current manager he will only go sideways or backwards.​

Hojbjerg is willing but somewhat limited and needs someone competent alongside him to help.
Winks is also willing but his lack of physicality inhibits his ability to beat a press. There is also a massive drop off in defensive protection when he plays.


I think this is where we miss Verthongen and his ability to work the ball into midfield. Toby can spray longer passes but Verthongen was excellent at moving forwards with the ball and playing sharp passes along the floor into midfield.

We need another press resistant midfielder and a centre-half who is good on the ball.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It was more a point in response to the point being made in the post I quoted. We were pressing monsters for a good while under Pochettino and I thought that was awesome. But for whatever reason we weren't able to sustain that.

Being 10 yards higher up does nothing without intensity and aggression imo. I think we were 10 yards higher up against Arsenal than we were when we beat City earlier in the season. But with the players standing off, not putting opponents under pressure, that's not in itself a positive.

Low block, medium block, high pressure or 4 players surrounding the opposition pelanty area for a goal kick, no matter what, that intensity from the players is so important. Without that the defence will be put in very difficult situations rather frequently against even reasonably good teams.

We couldn’t sustain it because we had a tiny squad under Pochettino that the chairman didn’t give adequate backing to strengthen.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We couldn’t sustain it because we had a tiny squad under Pochettino that the chairman didn’t give adequate backing to strengthen.

And the players stopped listening to the manager