Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[Baleforce]

You only care about the League + CL remember

I do, the numbers should include the CL qualifiers too.

 

[billyiddo]

I do, the numbers should include the CL qualifiers too.

So the Europa League then?

 

[Baleforce]

So the Europa League then?

Exactly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Is that just league games though?

I think the overall win percentage is more use personally, but each to their own.

Why would anyone compare anything other than league games? If you don't use league games only then you're comparing the records of managers such as Pochettino having to play Cup games against actual, real, big, decent teams that people have actually heard of in the Champions League to the record of somebody like AVB who is instead competing against the Estonian Pig Farmers Union Second 11 in the Europa Also Rans Vase.

The league is a real barometer of how good you are, always in comparison to the other best 19 clubs in the country.

 

[Baleforce]

Why would anyone compare anything other than league games? If you don't use league games only then you're comparing the records of managers such as Pochettino having to play Cup games against actual, real, big, decent teams that people have actually heard of in the Champions League to the record of somebody like AVB who is instead competing against the Estonian Pig Farmers Union Second 11 in the Europa Also Rans Vase.

The league is a real barometer of how good you are, always in comparison to the other best 19 clubs in the country.

So Sherwood is our best manager ever then?

 

[Finney Is Back]

So Sherwood is our best manager ever then?

Of our last 10 managers, statistically in terms of points per league game he is. The sample size for Sherwood is small though.

Of course there are a lot of other factors to consider when judging who is best....
For example Jol took us from midtable to be pretty much consistently the 5th best club in the league. He started from a much lower base than any of those other manager's IMO so there is a lot of credit in that.

Both AVB and Jose started from a very high base (in AVB's case a team that finished 4th the year before and really should've been 3rd) and in Mourinho's case a team that had just had 4 CL qualifications in a row as well as getting to a CL final and having £70 million net invested on some good players since then.

I would say that Pochettino was clearly the best of all of them in that he gave us a sustained time in the upper echelons of the league and actually had us competing for the biggest trophies. I don't think anyone could really make a coherent argument against that.

Redknapp probably next best in that he managed to break through the glass ceiling (that was a big step). He also took on a team that was in way worse shape in terms of performances compared to what any of the other managers inherited (the whole 2 points from 8 games thing that Redknapp admittedly overplayed, but does need to be considered)

Jol probably next best as he took us from being a perennial midtable club to a club competing in Europe again (that was also a big step)

After that there is Sherwood's very high PPG and obvious improvement on what went before him with AVB.

Mourinho and AVB are next up. At present you'd probably have to put AVB above Jose, as AVB got us a 5th place finish (1 worse than the season before) and had us declining to 7th the following season and looking clueless at the point he got sacked.

If Mourinho makes Europa via league position this season then with 2 Europa's in a row he'd be above AVB. If he got us into CL this season then he'd move above Sherwood and probably Jol as well and get another season to see if he could be considered as better than the other two.

 

[Bishop]

Of our last 10 managers, statistically in terms of points per league game he is. The sample size for Sherwood is small though.

Of course there are a lot of other factors to consider when judging who is best.
For example Jol took us from midtable to be pretty much consistently the 5th best club in the league. He started from a much lower base than any of those other manager's IMO.
Both AVB and Jose started from a very high base (in AVB's case a team that finished 4th the year before and really should've been 3rd) and in Poch's case a team that had just had 4 CL qualifications in a row.
I would say that Pochettino was the best in that he gave us a sustained time in the upper echelons of the league and actually had us competing for the biggest trophies.
Redknapp probably next best in that he managed to break through the glass ceiling (that was a big step).
Jol probably next best as he took us from being a perennial midtable club to a club competing in Europe again (that was also a big step)
After that there is Sherwood's very high PPG and obvious improvement on what went before him with AVB.
Mourinho and AVB are next up. At present you'd probably have to put AVB above Jose, as AVB got us a 5th place finish (1 worse than the season before) and had us declining to 7th the following season. If Mourinho makes Europa via league position this season then with 2 Europa's in a row he'd be above AVB. If he got us into CL this season then he'd move above Sherwood and probably Jol as well and get another season to see if he could be considered as better than the other two.

All very sensible and reasonable. Managerial achievement should always be balanced against the context of the circumstances.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

@Mr Gogolak

You imply last season is unfairly tarnishing peoples perception but I'd argue that spell was much better than this season.

In the period Mourinho was in charge he had us the 4th best team, this season after a similar number of games we're in 9th, so If anything i believe last seasons revival had (and still has for some) a positive effect on how he was viewed. Based on this season alone? Surely worse than the two combined or in a straight comparison to his part of last season or the season prior to that.

Not at all and if I did, that's because of my mediocre grasp of your fine language. The point I was trying to make is that people advocating for a mid-season change often claim that it gives the new man in charge a few months without pressure or expectations in order to put his ideas into practice. I don't really think it works that way. Tuchel was hammered in the press after his first game in charge at Chelsea. Likewise, once the new manager becomes stale or hits a rough patch, the stats from these first 'free' months are agregated with the rest, be it to defend or criticise him.

In other words, there's no such thing as a 'free pass' in today's football (or so I believe anyway). The next manager is going to be accountable from day one. The only reason to jump onboard midway through a season would be if the team was massively underperforming. That's probably what happened with Mourinho. He thought he'd get into the Top 4 with that squad and, considering the number of players he signed in the summer, we can already safely say that he got that wrong. Obviously, it's a different story if you think this squad is good enough to challenge for top positions, as I know some people on here do.

In any case, I wasn't trying to defend Mourinho. Just saying that a change at this time wouldn't necessarily a boon for the next manager, despite what I've read here on a couple of occasions.

Wrt to sacking mid season i tend to agree with what you are saying, the only argument in favour would be that in this unique season a new manager bounce could be enough to see us jump up to get top 4 still (replacing Lampard on a similar run of form will almost certainly see Chelsea, who were below us at the time, safely in the CL next season) and if you're of the opinion a change will be needed in the summer anyway then having CL football could determine who you could attract/and then also giving them the chance to get off on the best footing. Worth noting Mourinho was sacked in his last two jobs mid season because the clubs were looking up rather than down - in fact that seems to be a common theme with how the big clubs act and is a behaviour we got on board with when we last changed managers.

After the upcoming West Ham game it will have been over a third of a season played since the Arsenal match - tough place to get a result this season so assuming a point (to be fair) that'll give us 13 from 13 and puts us 15th in the table over that period, keeping in mind we sacked the last guy with 14 points from 12 matches and 14th in the table - it's no wonder that it's a talking point due to the similarities in circumstance.

It's true and Bayern must be relieved they pulled the trigger on Kovac (who should never have been appointed in the first place) as early as they did. Again, I'd say it's a matter of perspective. If we consider this squad good enough to challenge for the title, he should be sacked right away but in that case, he shouldn't be replaced with a 'project manager', as I've read in the other thread. If the aim is a place in the Top 4, it's not too late for that and he could still make it. Sacking him now would be a gamble. If we want to have fun watching football games... he shouldn't have been appointed at all!

Of course, I know it's not so clear-cut as that. It's a mix of different things but my point was that being fed up with the dire brand of football we're playing is, in my opinion, a more valid argument than any stat or comparison you could find. Going a bit further than that, I'd say that these days, we tend to put too much emphasis on 'numbers' (stats, in this case). Being a football fan isn't hard science and if you don't like what you see, it's as good a reason as any to want the manager or the players out, isn't it?

 

[afsoc4life]

In Mourinho's case, you forgot the record of the team when he took over. Spurs were in low table when he took over. Only managers who did that were Redknapp and Martin Jol comparatively. The others had fairly better starting points.

Aside from that, good in-depth read.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Of our last 10 managers, statistically in terms of points per league game he is. The sample size for Sherwood is small though.

Of course there are a lot of other factors to consider when judging who is best....
For example Jol took us from midtable to be pretty much consistently the 5th best club in the league. He started from a much lower base than any of those other manager's IMO so there is a lot of credit in that.

Both AVB and Jose started from a very high base (in AVB's case a team that finished 4th the year before and really should've been 3rd) and in Mourinho's case a team that had just had 4 CL qualifications in a row as well as getting to a CL final and having £70 million net invested on some good players since then.

I would say that Pochettino was clearly the best of all of them in that he gave us a sustained time in the upper echelons of the league and actually had us competing for the biggest trophies. I don't think anyone could really make a coherent argument against that.

Redknapp probably next best in that he managed to break through the glass ceiling (that was a big step). He also took on a team that was in way worse shape in terms of performances compared to what any of the other managers inherited (the whole 2 points from 8 games thing that Redknapp admittedly overplayed, but does need to be considered)

Jol probably next best as he took us from being a perennial midtable club to a club competing in Europe again (that was also a big step)

After that there is Sherwood's very high PPG and obvious improvement on what went before him with AVB.

Mourinho and AVB are next up. At present you'd probably have to put AVB above Jose, as AVB got us a 5th place finish (1 worse than the season before) and had us declining to 7th the following season and looking clueless at the point he got sacked.

If Mourinho makes Europa via league position this season then with 2 Europa's in a row he'd be above AVB. If he got us into CL this season then he'd move above Sherwood and probably Jol as well and get another season to see if he could be considered as better than the other two.

I agree
The key is punching above or at the weight we’re at

 

[parklane1]

Doesn't really matter whether or not we get behind them seeing as how none of us are in the stadium cheering them on....

Of course it does, a lot of fans on here go to matches ( same on all forums) so it stands to reason that those on here and elsewhere who want him gone would be expressing the same thoughts at games.

 

[Bishop]

Of course it does, a lot of fans on here go to matches ( same on all forums) so it stands to reason that those on here and elsewhere who want him gone would be expressing the same thoughts at games.

If we could get to matches not getting behind the manager is just as valid a response to our current position. I'm not really a booer but I reserve my right to boo if the manager/team deserve it. [emoji28]

 

[billyiddo]

Not at all and if I did, that's because of my mediocre grasp of your fine language. The point I was trying to make is that people advocating for a mid-season change often claim that it gives the new man in charge a few months without pressure or expectations in order to put his ideas into practice. I don't really think it works that way. Tuchel was hammered in the press after his first game in charge at Chelsea. Likewise, once the new manager becomes stale or hits a rough patch, the stats from these first 'free' months are agregated with the rest, be it to defend or criticise him.

In other words, there's no such thing as a 'free pass' in today's football (or so I believe anyway). The next manager is going to be accountable from day one. The only reason to jump onboard midway through a season would be if the team was massively underperforming. That's probably what happened with Mourinho. He thought he'd get into the Top 4 with that squad and, considering the number of players he signed in the summer, we can already safely say that he got that wrong. Obviously, it's a different story if you think this squad is good enough to challenge for top positions, as I know some people on here do.

In any case, I wasn't trying to defend Mourinho. Just saying that a change at this time wouldn't necessarily a boon for the next manager, despite what I've read here on a couple of occasions.



It's true and Bayern must be relieved they pulled the trigger on Kovac (who should never have been appointed in the first place) as early as they did. Again, I'd say it's a matter of perspective. If we consider this squad good enough to challenge for the title, he should be sacked right away but in that case, he shouldn't be replaced with a 'project manager', as I've read in the other thread. If the aim is a place in the Top 4, it's not too late for that and he could still make it. Sacking him now would be a gamble. If we want to have fun watching football games... he shouldn't have been appointed at all!

Of course, I know it's not so clear-cut as that. It's a mix of different things but my point was that being fed up with the dire brand of football we're playing is, in my opinion, a more valid argument than any stat or comparison you could find. Going a bit further than that, I'd say that these days, we tend to put too much emphasis on 'numbers' (stats, in this case). Being a football fan isn't hard science and if you don't like what you see, it's as good a reason as any to want the manager or the players out, isn't it?

i think the stats/numbers posted are only ever in support of an opinion/argument already being made - i don't need to look at a points comparison to last season to see that we haven't progressed in the time that Mourinho has been here, but if there are people arguing to the contrary i feel the comparison can paint a picture rather than just arguing back and forth. Same with the various attacking stats people post, anyone who watches us can see there is little to no plan and that we don't attack well but sometimes a stat crops up on social media that just further emphasizes just how poor things are.


Point taken regarding what you meant/what i misunderstood from your initial post - and you make some good points regarding a free hit or a free pass for a new manager coming in mid season. Your grasp of the language appears to be better than mine and im a native speaker so don't worry about that

For a change to be made mid season there are a host of variable factors at play that could influence the decision. Are we underperforming? Do we expect him to turn it around? Are the players onside? Is there time left on the clock to achieve our goals? is the right man available to take his place? and probaby a bunch of others too - currently i don't think there are enough of those being ticked to say that we should be changing mid season - Brighton game was a shocker and looked like he had lost the players but that now appears to have been a one off. We are underperforming though, at least in so far as the last 12 matches are concerned and the longer that form runs the less he shows himself capable of turning it around.

 

[LincsSpur]

Happy to have the debate mate, but lets try to leave out the dinosaur/narrative stuff

1. I think you are missing my point re counter, Jose plays based on what the opposition does (not always counter attack), against top level teams it however often is "keep them in front of you, and hit on counter" I don't think people have sussed it out, I think the midfield hasn't worked (Ndombele, PEH +1, the +1 usually being the issue) and the loss of Reguilon has hampered that.

2. City has so many players it's not even worth the debate, Pool isn't a good example because they are in pretty much relegation form. Who in the league has a plan B? (genuine question because City, Pool, Chelsea, United, Scum have all looked absolutely clueless and had complete brick the bed results this season)

3. Lets see, the season started well -> bad run during which we have had a lot of tough games -> easier run (let's see if we can correct)

4/5 much of the same, depends on how you want to use stats, I could say we have two of the leagues top scorers and assisters, you say only two players attack, I could say we outscored City in all comps and you could reply our XG is brick and we don't have enough touches in opposition box, classic we can make stats align to our view

Here's where we are, you (and others) think Jose is incapable of learning/adapting/improving this side, I think that is a really early statement to make on one of the most successful managers of all time, I'm not saying he absolutely will, I'm just saying lets give him until the Cup Final, if we lose that, are out of Europe and not in with a shot at top 4 at that point, ok, time to move on.

Yes I and a few others are fed up with the ‘Dinosaur’ narrative
It’s boring and unhelpful!

Lets get behind him at least until the end of the season

 

[StephenH]

We all want to win every game.

The performances are a different conversation along with the style of the manager.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Of course it does, a lot of fans on here go to matches ( same on all forums) so it stands to reason that those on here and elsewhere who want him gone would be expressing the same thoughts at games.

Yes.... but (luckily for Jose) the stadiums are closed to fans and therefore whether we get behind them or not doesn't make one iota of difference to our results.

Once we're allowed back in then, yes, getting behind the team may indeed make a difference until then? It really doesn't matter.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yes I and a few others are fed up with the ‘Dinosaur’ narrative
It’s boring and unhelpful!

Lets get behind him at least until the end of the season

Why? What difference will it make? None of us are there cheering them on.

If people aren't happy at the performances and/or results then what harm does expressing that on a fans forum do?.... other than to you and a few others who are fed up with it?

 

[billyiddo]

sound like a pair of happy-clappers to me

 

[Finney Is Back]

I agree
The key is punching above or at the weight we’re at

I wonder what our weight actually is?

Under Pochettino it was probably somewhere between 6th and 10th (6th biggest wage bill, 10th(ish) biggest net transfer budget).

Our wage budget is now either still 6th or maybe now 7th (depending on whether Everton's extra expenditure since then has taken them beyond us)
Net transfers - I would imagine we are in the 5 or 6 net biggest spenders since Mourinho joined? 6th is therefore par for Jose I guess?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I wonder what our weight actually is?

Under Pochettino it was probably somewhere between 6th and 10th (6th biggest wage bill, 10th(ish) biggest net transfer budget).

Our wage budget is now either still 6th or maybe now 7th (depending on whether Everton's extra expenditure since then has taken them beyond us)
Net transfers - I would imagine we are in the 5 or 6 net biggest spenders since Mourinho joined? 6th is therefore par for Jose I guess?

Yep
That would be where I would place us
Poch had us consistently above that