James Maddison

[DubSpur]

Except we have no real deep playmaker for those two roles, unless counting Bergvall who's just burst onto the scene.

The first half yesterday showed why inverting our full backs has been so useful for us. Get Porro and Spence into those midfield roles to help Bissouma and Sarr progress the ball and we'd probably get forward more often.

Comes with a risk though. But the difference between a 4-2-3-1 and what we saw in that first half against Arsenal is fairly small on the ball. And a setup that requires Dragusin, Sarr and Bissouma to progress the ball through a press will struggle to do so.

Gray or Bergvall could play that role. Both are really good on the ball and have a good pass on them. Think it's where Gray will play long term at least.

 

[metalgear]

Except we have no real deep playmaker for those two roles, unless counting Bergvall who's just burst onto the scene.

The first half yesterday showed why inverting our full backs has been so useful for us. Get Porro and Spence into those midfield roles to help Bissouma and Sarr progress the ball and we'd probably get forward more often.

Comes with a risk though. But the difference between a 4-2-3-1 and what we saw in that first half against Arsenal is fairly small on the ball. And a setup that requires Dragusin, Sarr and Bissouma to progress the ball through a press will struggle to do so.

so is it ange's tactics or players not stepping up? or both?
between the two ange seems to be the stubborn one - players are trying but just can't execute to his standards or wishes

 

[Muttley]

Except we have no real deep playmaker for those two roles, unless counting Bergvall who's just burst onto the scene.

The first half yesterday showed why inverting our full backs has been so useful for us. Get Porro and Spence into those midfield roles to help Bissouma and Sarr progress the ball and we'd probably get forward more often.

Comes with a risk though. But the difference between a 4-2-3-1 and what we saw in that first half against Arsenal is fairly small on the ball. And a setup that requires Dragusin, Sarr and Bissouma to progress the ball through a press will struggle to do so.

That system needs players who can progress the ball through the thirds, whilst protecting the back line. It doesn't necessarily need a Carrick. Both need double pivot players that can drop in and cover the marauding full-back. I think we have that in abundance with Bents, Biss, Sarr, Gray and Berg. What we may not have is the guys in the 3 that have the defensive smarts of Dele and Eriksen. It also makes Sonny a square peg in a round hole. I have no problem with that dilemma though.

My problem is the ineffectiveness of the 2 wide players. They don't contribute enough in this current system. I've heard other people call them "ghost" players. It's not a bad term.

 

[parklane1]

Highlights player for me, he is so inconsistant for a player who does have skill.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Said it before he came on, it wasn't the type of game for him. Once he has to battle and show some physicality he is a waste, just goes hiding.

Well he better not come on at all. Cos honestly every game we got coming is gonna be a battle. Bloody couldn't turn up at Tamworth

 

[braineclipse]

so is it ange's tactics or players not stepping up? or both?
between the two ange seems to be the stubborn one - players are trying but just can't execute to his standards or wishes

Lack of balance amongst the fit and available players is a solid part of it imo. Particularly with regards to ball progression under pressure, too many players who aren't good at that on the pitch at the same time.

There's a reason a lot of top teams go for a high press as a part of their system. It's really difficult to play against when you do it right and there aren't a lot of easy tactical solutions if you lack the player profiles to play through it. Other than going long which we've tried quite a bit and isn't exactly a great solution.

 

[braineclipse]

Gray or Bergvall could play that role. Both are really good on the ball and have a good pass on them. Think it's where Gray will play long term at least.

Bergvall has only now burst onto the scene. Gray has too, but it's needed elsewhere.

If successful in that kind of role over time they do have the quality to progress the ball for sure. But that's more a player profile thing than a formation thing. Use the midfield system we use and inverted full backs and those players can solve those problems just as well as they can in a 4-2-3-1 with overlapping full backs.

That system needs players who can progress the ball through the thirds, whilst protecting the back line. It doesn't necessarily need a Carrick. Both need double pivot players that can drop in and cover the marauding full-back. I think we have that in abundance with Bents, Biss, Sarr, Gray and Berg. What we may not have is the guys in the 3 that have the defensive smarts of Dele and Eriksen. It also makes Sonny a square peg in a round hole. I have no problem with that dilemma though.

My problem is the ineffectiveness of the 2 wide players. They don't contribute enough in this current system. I've heard other people call them "ghost" players. It's not a bad term.

Quite a few there that can drop in and cover for the full back, inverting or overlapping. On the ball progression through the thirds (under pressure) less so. Gray and Bergvall, as mentioned above.

Combined players lacking that in midfield with having multiple players in other positions that struggle with the same and playing through a press is going to be difficult. Whatever formation and inverted wing backs or not.

Wide players are ineffective because we don't have enough quality deeper to give them the service they need. And they're not the right profiles to progress the ball under pressure themselves. Change the formation and the problem remains the same as it doesn't help with said ball progression under pressure.

 

[Muttley]

Wide players are ineffective because we don't have enough quality deeper to give them the service they need. And they're not the right profiles to progress the ball under pressure themselves. Change the formation and the problem remains the same as it doesn't help with said ball progression under pressure.

In the cold light of day, this statement has serious implications. So we've spent hundreds of millions yet don't have the quality behind the wide players and they are not the right profiles themselves. That is quite scary, if true.

I don't believe it fortunately. We have loads of quality. In fact, guys like Kulu, Madds, Johnson, Moore, Bergval would love the fluidity of a 4-2-3-1 like we saw with Poch. They know the full-backs are bombing on and working the entire wide area creating them space. They get to find pockets of space everywhere and they get to turns us into a 4-5-1 defensively. I actually feel sorry for Johnson as he would suit this way more than being the wide player that works the entire side, and then comes into the far post on the odd occasion. That's not the Johnson I saw at Forest. He was actually quite talismanic with freedom to create.

 

[braineclipse]

In the cold light of day, this statement has serious implications. So we've spent hundreds of millions yet don't have the quality behind the wide players and they are not the right profiles themselves. That is quite scary, if true.

I don't believe it fortunately. We have loads of quality. In fact, guys like Kulu, Madds, Johnson, Moore, Bergval would love the fluidity of a 4-2-3-1 like we saw with Poch. They know the full-backs are bombing on and working the entire wide area creating them space. They get to find pockets of space everywhere and they get to turns us into a 4-5-1 defensively. I actually feel sorry for Johnson as he would suit this way more than being the wide player that works the entire side, and then comes into the far post on the odd occasion. That's not the Johnson I saw at Forest. He was actually quite talismanic with freedom to create.

Doesn't matter much how those players are set up in the final third if you can't get the ball up through the lines to find them in situations they thrive in.

It's not that we don't have those players. We just haven't had them available, ready and on form. Or not enough of them at least.

We're integrating and developing two fantastic 18 year old midfielders who have just those qualities. But before they've been fully ready we've been without them. At the same time as we've been without our (by far) best ball progressing CB. At the same time we've been without our only senior dribbly ball progressy winger in Odobert. And the 17 year old who also has those qualities. And at the same time others who do have those qualities like Porro have been exhausted and playing below par.

That adds up. Regardless of the formation. Because the ability to play through a press depends heavily on ball playing quality of the players. Much more so than tactics or formation imo.

 

[thfcsteff]

Us not having enough other players that are creative is a big problem yes. Along with having players who are good enough, but injured or exhausted.

Maddison isn't good enough to compensate for that on his own when chasing a game against a team that's very good defensively. That's not on him.

I thinki that's a fair point, but he does not rise to where he could IMO