isn't it time to stop the Y word...?

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The club has made massive efforts to engage with local community and provided much needed jobs (probably part time) to local youngsters. I believe the club is a big positive for the area and will help in the regeneration of Tottenham. Years of neglect and virtually little investment has seen it fall behind many other areas and these projects can help kids get a foot on the ladder. I believe it's more important than making PR statements about political issues as once you start that you paint yourself into a corner.

 

[Bishop]

Here is what I read the point of your post to be.

You were suggesting that Scara somehow 'didn't mind' bombing Palestinians; that was what your inference was (to my eye) intended to suggest. I was pointing out that not only Palestinians are 'brown', thus IF you wanted to make such a point/accusation, you'd be best keep colour out of it as it actually does nothing to support your point, indeed, it confuses it. It's also (again IMO) very unhelpful.

Frankly, if you're more aware of 'brown matters' than me, I'd have thought this was a no-brainer.

PERSONALLY, I have absolutely no issues with you whatsoever mate. How could I? We don't know each other beyond this forum.

So with that said, best wishes, and here's hoping that we ALL get what we want from this, which is peace in the region. Forums are strange places to express opinions these days, and I am sure I fall foul of the traps myself more often than I think.

Well no, I think many don't associate Israelis and Jewish people with being brown, just like they don't associate Arabs with being Semitic people yet they are (I always find it amusing when the media and commentators call Arabs "anti-Semitic", it's like they can't understand the contradiction in their words). I'd be surprised if Scara does tbh so that is an important part of my point. I also believe if the Palestinian had a different appearances the way they are viewed and the sympathies they would receive in the western discourse would be rather different (but that is a digression). That is my "brown eyed view". You can disagree if you wish but the likelihood is that you will never understand my viewpoint, it's impossible for you to.

Tbf to Scara I did forget that an important part of his views are the religious element so I'll put my hand up there. [emoji28]

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[JerusalemMan]

Well no, I think many don't associate Israelis and Jewish people with being brown, just like they don't associate Arabs with being Semitic people yet they are (I always find it amusing when the media and commentators call Arabs "anti-Semitic", it's like they can't understand the contradiction in their words). I'd be surprised if Scara does tbh so that is an important part of my point. I also believe if the Palestinian had a different appearances the way they are viewed and the sympathies they would receive in the western discourse would be rather different (but that is a digression). That is my "brown eyed view". You can disagree if you wish but the likelihood is that you will never understand my viewpoint, it's impossible for you to.


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Is that spoken with the weight your own years of experience finding it impossible to understand other viewpoints?

 

[Bishop]

Is that spoken with the weight your own years of experience finding it impossible to understand other viewpoints?

I live in a society where I am other. I see and experience the mainstream viewpoints everyday. Unless you are also other then no I'm sorry I don't believe you can ever truly understand. There is so much to it, self hate, lack of self worth. Feeling lost, feeling out of place even though you are home, feeling unwanted, feeling like less of a person. Knowing the history of how your people have been treated and how that permeates through to the modern day. The privileged do no get to experience this. They can have empathy and many do and I appreciate that, but it's not the same understanding that the other feels.



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[johnola]

We should support all victims of murder. The Isreal/Palestine problem has been created by colonial powers hoping to sweep their problems away, there's no quick fix solution.

The U.K. had an unutterably miserable time fulfilling the UN mandate to administer Palestine and the HolyLand with regular insurrection from both sides. Our hands were eventually smacked by a power wielding a bigger stick when we wanted to limit the numbers of Jewish settlers. That was the end of that.

(it is pretty easy to understand the motivations of the US post Holocaust to permit more settlers. But opening those floodgates also caused the pressures to open up the new settlements outside the agreed territory).

It was never a British colony - far from it. And it’s going too far to say they just washed their hands of it.

I’m not sure anyone can really believe where the leadership of those nations has led them since then. It is truly horrific.

I understand Biden is going out there so let’s hear some hard words please Joe.

 

[Bishop]

The U.K. had an unutterably miserable time fulfilling the UN mandate to administer Palestine and the HolyLand with regular insurrection from both sides. Our hands were eventually smacked by a power wielding a bigger stick when we wanted to limit the numbers of Jewish settlers. That was the end of that.

(it is pretty easy to understand the motivations of the US post Holocaust to permit more settlers. But opening those floodgates also caused the pressures to open up the new settlements outside the agreed territory).

It was never a British colony - far from it. And it’s going too far to say they just washed their hands of it.

I’m not sure anyone can really believe where the leadership of those nations has led them since then. It is truly horrific.

I understand Biden is going out there so let’s hear some hard words please Joe.

Unlikely as US support of Israel is part their strategic military objectives in the Middle East. A strong and rapacious Israel is to the US' long term strategic benefit.

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[JerusalemMan]

I live in a society where I am other. I see and experience the mainstream viewpoints everyday. Unless you are also other then no I'm sorry I don't believe you can ever truly understand. There is so much to it, self hate, lack of self worth. Feeling lost, feeling out of place even though you are home, feeling unwanted, feeling like less of a person. Knowing the history of how your people have been treated and how that permeates through to the modern day. The privileged do no get to experience this. They can have empathy and many do and I appreciate that, but it's not the same understanding that the other feels.



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Hm.
I too am other. But I also choose to some degree to adapt, engage and change.
It greatly depends on the community/communities you belong to and what you prize the highest in your life, I suppose

 

[Bishop]

Hm.
I too am other. But I also choose to some degree to adapt, engage and change.
It greatly depends on the community/communities you belong to and what you prize the highest in your life, I suppose

I'm not hung up on it at all really although my text probably makes it appear as if I am. [emoji28]

In real life I'm probably the last person to mention race but at the same time I'm not ignorant or maybe i should say i'm not naive to how these things do shape society.

You and I will get it in a way that some others can't, although I'll stress the importance of saying they can definitely have empathy and a willingness to embrace.

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[thfcsteff]

I live in a society where I am other. I see and experience the mainstream viewpoints everyday. Unless you are also other then no I'm sorry I don't believe you can ever truly understand. There is so much to it, self hate, lack of self worth. Feeling lost, feeling out of place even though you are home, feeling unwanted, feeling like less of a person. Knowing the history of how your people have been treated and how that permeates through to the modern day. The privileged do no get to experience this. They can have empathy and many do and I appreciate that, but it's not the same understanding that the other feels.



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I agree with this, in many forms sadly, and in many dimensions.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

The U.K. had an unutterably miserable time fulfilling the UN mandate to administer Palestine and the HolyLand with regular insurrection from both sides. Our hands were eventually smacked by a power wielding a bigger stick when we wanted to limit the numbers of Jewish settlers. That was the end of that.

(it is pretty easy to understand the motivations of the US post Holocaust to permit more settlers. But opening those floodgates also caused the pressures to open up the new settlements outside the agreed territory).

It was never a British colony - far from it. And it’s going too far to say they just washed their hands of it.

I’m not sure anyone can really believe where the leadership of those nations has led them since then. It is truly horrific.

I understand Biden is going out there so let’s hear some hard words please Joe.

The problem existed before WW2, the setting up of a land for Jewish settlement was proposed after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1, Uganda was one of the areas looked at but Palestine was an obvious choice for the Jewish people. It was the same colonial powers drawing up the maps.

 

[Grays_1890]

Martin Samuel, absolute opportunist reporting that potentially inflates a situation in an already tense period in order to point score. I get the context but using the term "Army" in a report of this nature, the day after the Brussels attack is beyond poor. Honestly shocked it was able to run

 

[SpurMeUp]

Shocking how commentators have turn this term into something racial, when pre-Bediel many Spurs fans were oblivious to any history or connotations. Yid was evolving into just another term like hammer or goon. Fans in their 40s even who'd supported the club for a long time had no idea. And it was great like that. If you did pick up a Spurs history book, or to those in the know, there was some pride that yid came about as an act of anti-racism. Of inclusion. Yet first Bidel and then others have dragged a term, that had almost completely evolved, and somehow turned it on Spurs fans as a racial term - which it hasn't been for decades. Pretty shameful the way they have tried to re-classify an innocent term with a proud history, into a stick to beat us with.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Seems a bit extreme, but could these commentators be challanged/charged with inciting racial hatred? For trying to 'racialise' a term that has not had any racial connotations for many many decades. Someone should challange them.

 

[90291Spur]

Shocking how commentators have turn this term into something racial, when pre-Bediel many Spurs fans were oblivious to any history or connotations. Yid was evolving into just another term like hammer or goon. Fans in their 40s even who'd supported the club for a long time had no idea. And it was great like that. If you did pick up a Spurs history book, or to those in the know, there was some pride that yid came about as an act of anti-racism. Of inclusion. Yet first Bidel and then others have dragged a term, that had almost completely evolved, and somehow turned it on Spurs fans as a racial term - which it hasn't been for decades. Pretty shameful the way they have tried to re-classify an innocent term with a proud history, into a stick to beat us with.

Pre-Baddiel, when I was 12 or so, quite a few of the young lads at my school called me a Yid. Until I lamped them. Likewise, when I played football (badly) for a Jewish team), the opposition liked to call us Kids. So to suggest that 'Aid' is not racial is not accurate. I always felt that Spurs fans using the Y word was a way of taking the sting out of it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Pre-Baddiel, when I was 12 or so, quite a few of the young lads at my school called me a Yid. Until I lamped them. Likewise, when I played football (badly) for a Jewish team), the opposition liked to call us Kids. So to suggest that 'Aid' is not racial is not accurate. I always felt that Spurs fans using the Y word was a way of taking the sting out of it.

I should imagine that was some time - decades? - earlier? I don't think yid was used with any racial connotations since the 80s. It isn't used now as a racial term either as far as I hear and know. It was even updated in the Oxford English Dictionary to reference a Spurs supporter!

 

[90291Spur]

I should imagine that was some time - decades? - earlier? I don't think yid was used with any racial connotations since the 80s. It isn't used now as a racial term either as far as I hear and know. It was even updated in the Oxford English Dictionary to reference a Spurs supporter!

Honest question. Are you Jewish? My Jewish family who still live in london hear yid as an insult regularly. My cousin teaches at a Jewish school and his students hear it. Whether aimed at them, or in ‘jokes’ by non Jews. Just because the supporters of one team say the word - and for the record, I appreciate our supporters using it - does not change it as an insult hurled by ignorant bigots.

 

[Goatleaf]

The Athletic have written a long piece on the club's public statement on the current crisis including interviewing various Jewish and Arab supporters of the club. I was deeply engrossed in the article when I read that among Tottenham's Arab supporters is one Ash Sarkar. And I had been enjoying this season so much.......once more a sense of despair clouds over me.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Honest question. Are you Jewish? My Jewish family who still live in london hear yid as an insult regularly. My cousin teaches at a Jewish school and his students hear it. Whether aimed at them, or in ‘jokes’ by non Jews. Just because the supporters of one team say the word - and for the record, I appreciate our supporters using it - does not change it as an insult hurled by ignorant bigots.

I am surprised. They are regularly shouted at. Really? That is hugely shocking. Regardless of the terms used, that they are being verbally abused regularly is alarming. I live in one of the most distinctly Jewish areas, in Stamford Hill with the Hasids who stick out as Jewish as they come. Almost caricatures of a medieval jew. I am Jewish myself. And I have not heard the term used by anyone out of football since the late 80s. Type the term yid into https://trends.google.com/trends/ and there is more on tea than anything racial. If you put yid into Google the top results are all about football and Spurs. It is a term that has latterly been driven by Spurs more than anything else. And it has more recently been racialised by this ongoing discussion in relation to Spurs which stared with Baddiel. Before David B's intervention, it was quietly being forgotten as a racial term.

 

[Grays_1890]

The Athletic have written a long piece on the club's public statement on the current crisis including interviewing various Jewish and Arab supporters of the club. I was deeply engrossed in the article when I read that among Tottenham's Arab supporters is one Ash Sarkar. And I had been enjoying this season so much.......once more a sense of despair clouds over me.

You have a link mate?

EDIT: found it

 

[Mikey10]

Shocking how commentators have turn this term into something racial, when pre-Bediel many Spurs fans were oblivious to any history or connotations. Yid was evolving into just another term like hammer or goon. Fans in their 40s even who'd supported the club for a long time had no idea. And it was great like that. If you did pick up a Spurs history book, or to those in the know, there was some pride that yid came about as an act of anti-racism. Of inclusion. Yet first Bidel and then others have dragged a term, that had almost completely evolved, and somehow turned it on Spurs fans as a racial term - which it hasn't been for decades. Pretty shameful the way they have tried to re-classify an innocent term with a proud history, into a stick to beat us with.

To be fair to Baddiel, he’s simply attempting to find a way to stay in the public eye after everyone worked out around 20 years ago that he’d never said or written a funny thing in his entire professional life.