isn't it time to stop the Y word...?

[Grays_1890]

I'm not really able to be a judge of either word's severity, it's obviously down to the individual but particularly those it has been used as an insult towards. They are of a similar theme in terms of words that can be / have been used as racial slurs. It's not an equivalence but a comparison , the fact that you've chosen to self sensor both words indicates there's a similarity in calibre.

This isn't just you but a few posters really aren't in to analogies as a means of exploring a subject, they just take a warped ott summary which was never part of the example, I find it mighty odd, nobody has said the words are the same on here but I appreciate you may mean in real life.

It gets conflated alot in this conversation, there are probably half a dozen threads on here about the subject where its been compared for sure.

People in the Jewish community have used the Y word in many forms for what it was intended for an in its singular form isn't was never a derogatory term unlike the word N word.

Now being called a dirty or filthy yid where the problems started, well yeh of course it is, but that's not the same as the singular form being on its own offensive

The argument was for many years not about us using the word and it being offensive but by us using it as a word that it gets appropriated by the NF fans of say Chelsea. That's a much deeper and complex argument where I can see pros and cons on both sides

 

[spurspinter1]

It gets conflated alot in this conversation, there are probably half a dozen threads on here about the subject where its been compared for sure.

People in the Jewish community have used the Y word in many forms for what it was intended for an in its singular form isn't was never a derogatory term unlike the word N word.

Now being called a dirty or filthy yid where the problems started, well yeh of course it is, but that's the same as the singular form being on its own offensive

The argument was for many years not about us using the word and it being offensive but by us using it as a word that it gets appropriated by the NF fans of say Chelsea. That's a much deeper and complex argument where I can see pros and cons on both sides

That's my point, it's been compared but I've never seen it suggested that it's the same thing. I don't mean to be a dingdong on the semantics side of things but they're aren't conflated or an equivalence, nobody is using these words interchangeably but they are linked by category - As greatwhitenorf's story above suggests, they're both words that used in public could cause some real awkward silences or potential flash points so it's hard to not compare them as it's a similar idea.

We do go round in circles with this one, it's also inevitable that when this subject comes up on here that the automatic defense of "But the Chelsea fans do this", just need somebody to call Baddiel a clam and we'll have a full house haha.

You're absolutely right it is complex. I'm not sure if fans who do use it really want to explore why they possibly shouldn't use it, especially if it would mean a username change! I'm not strongly for or against the use of the words in chants but I have stopped shouting "Yiddooo" when I see another Spurs fan in the street as even if old groany fudgers pretend like they're being oppressed when asked not to offend people, I do like to minimize the risk where possible.

 

[Grays_1890]

As greatwhitenorf's story above suggests, they're both words that used in public could cause some real awkward silences .

We do go round in circles with this one, it's also inevitable that when this subject comes up on here that the automatic defense of "But the Chelsea fans do this", just need somebody to call Baddiel a clam and we'll have a full house haha.
.

Well there is the complexity, as I say the word Yid was never a derogatory term before it was prefixed with other terms to cause offence. Yid, Yiddish, Jew, Jewish are all the same in the respect. The Y word has gone on a real complex journey at Spurs in that respect

The comparison would be it deemed offensive for a black man to call himself black not the Nword.

Where the complexity lies in this hypethetical situation, as it does with our own, is it would be seen odd for white fans to to scream "blacks" at football games as solidarity and could be argued that it insights the opposition yo prefix it with words like "dirty" and shout it back.

That's the real basis of not using it IMO, is it giving fuel to the fire rather than it being on its own a word of offence. I used to be firm in the camp of let people carry on, Im not sure now.

 

[spurspinter1]

Well there is the complexity, as I say the word Yid was never a derogatory term before it was prefixed with other terms to cause offence. Yid, Yiddish, Jew, Jewish are all the same in the respect. The Y word has gone on a real complex journey at Spurs in that respect

The comparison would be it deemed offensive for a black man to call himself black not the Nword.

Where the complexity lies in this hypethetical situation as with out own is it would be seen odd for white fans to to scream "blacks" at football games as solidarity and argued that insights the opposition yo prefix it with words like "dirty" and shout it back.

That's the real basis of not using it IMO, is it giving fuel to the fire rather than it being on its own a word of offence. I used to be firm in the camp of let people carry on, Im not sure now.

I'm not trying to be obtuse but there are one or two typos and I'm not quite sure what you mean ie a black person calling themselves black seems fine to me so I think I've completely missed the gist of what you intend on that one mate! I am with you on the uncertainty about it though for sure.

 

[Grays_1890]

I'm not trying to be obtuse but there are one or two typos and I'm not quite sure what you mean ie a black person calling themselves black seems fine to me so I think I've completely missed the gist of what you intend on that one mate! I am with you on the uncertainty about it though for sure.

My bad writing on the hoof whilst watching the box.

My point was that a better comparison to a jew calling himself a Yid would be a black man calling himself black rather than an N word. BUT as with the Y word the same nuances exist, would white fans shout blacks in solidarity and would black fans like it and think its helpful or feel it brings unessasary heat from oppo fans. That's where any elder Jew ive spoken to on the subject sits with it, the offence isn't the word itself, its the journey the words been on now at the club.

To give another example and why I now have changed my tune on it. Forget the Y or N word, but I ask myself would I want people who are non Jews to shout Jew Army or Jews, in solidarity, even though the term isn't on its own an offence....I'm not sure I would and the same arguments against the Y word would be absolutely relevant and the same with that word too

 

[mephitis]

Good points made by both of you, but whenever this comes back up I always refer back to my old man (Jewish Cypriot) and the fact that he used the word all the time and was clearly proud of the fact that we embraced it. And this was pre the hissing from certain Neanderthals (an insult to Neanderthals I would add)

 

[Grays_1890]

Good points made by both of you, but whenever this comes back up I always refer back to my old man (Jewish Cypriot) and the fact that he used the word all the time and was clearly proud of the fact that we embraced it. And this was pre the hissing from certain Neanderthals (an insult to Neanderthals I would add)

And thats the line of contention where I am. I am a proud Jew and Yid (albeit non religious) but do I now see the point where the word being used maybe keeps the flames of bigotry alive AND is it odd that non Jews shout it? Im starting to think so BUT on the softer side as I also recognise the word on its not is not offensive, but the journey its been on makes it extremely complex.

The complexity no better shown in the fact the word can't be banned and the decision has effectively been put with the fans to decide.

 

[spurspinter1]

My bad writing on the hoof whilst watching the box.

My point was that a better comparison to a jew calling himself a Yid would be a black man calling himself black rather than an N word. BUT as with the Y word the same nuances exist, would white fans shout blacks in solidarity and would black fans like it and think its helpful or feel it brings unessasary heat from oppo fans. That's where any elder Jew ive spoken to on the subject sits with it, the offence isn't the word itself, its the journey the words been on now at the club.

To give another example and why I now have changed my tune on it. Forget the Y or N word, but I ask myself would I want people who are non Jews to shout Jew Army or Jews, in solidarity, even though the term isn't on its own an offence....I'm not sure I would and the same arguments against the Y word would be absolutely relevant and the same with that word too

Cheers for explaining.

Gotcha on the last paragraph absolutely, it is odd even if it's with good intentions.

Interesting on the elder jew point, Spurs fans often like the think the controversy is just a conspiracy formed by fans of opposing clubs ie Baddiel who are just creating a fuss over nothing but I don't buy it. As for someone calling themselves black or fans chanting, I'm not sure if we're still talking about my hypothetical club example, black people are black, and some may call each other or themselves the n word as a term of endearment, Jewish people are Jewish, I might be being thick but I'm still not quite grasping it but understand the worry of unnecessary heat etc.

 

[Grays_1890]

Cheers for explaining.

Gotcha on the last paragraph absolutely, it is odd even if it's with good intentions.

Interesting on the elder jew point, Spurs fans often like the think the controversy is just a conspiracy formed by fans of opposing clubs ie Baddiel who are just creating a fuss over nothing but I don't buy it. As for someone calling themselves black or fans chanting, I'm not sure if we're still talking about my hypothetical club example, black people are black, and some may call each other or themselves the n word as a term of endearment, Jewish people are Jewish, I might be being thick but I'm still not quite grasping it but understand the worry of unnecessary heat etc.

I'm likely not explaining it that well in all honesty. My last paragraph you agreed with was kinda the same sentiment.

I think Badiels point, maybe, is the same as the elders in that if we stop the use of the word they stop OR you can at least punish the bigots without risk of whataboutism. But I could be wrong, been a while since I read his views

 

[billyiddo]

For arguments sake are you then happy with white people using the N word as long as it's in a friendly way?

Doesn't have the same history so not a fair comparison.

Edit :

See you've already had a discussion with grays on it so no need to go through it again

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Tottenham chief resigns over "lack of moral clarity" on Israel-Hamas conflict
Jonathan Adelman, the chair of Tottenham's Tribute Trust, has tendered his resignation in an open letter criticising the club's statement in the wake of the Hamas attack in Israel


What an absolute tw*t. We are a football club, we should not be commenting on anything.

 

[Grays_1890]

Tottenham chief resigns over "lack of moral clarity" on Israel-Hamas conflict
Jonathan Adelman, the chair of Tottenham's Tribute Trust, has tendered his resignation in an open letter criticising the club's statement in the wake of the Hamas attack in Israel


What an absolute tw*t. We are a football club, we should not be commenting on anything.

My mate has been involved in the discussions on this and its be fraught apparently. The club being in North London and with its Jewish profile felt best to provide a more encapsulating message than one that looked to name a political side. Given the protests and attacks in Golders Green there was also safety concerns for all fans. They felt the message was more inclusive.

For me, it goes without saying that Spurs are against Anti Semitism and Terrorism, any sane person would be. I personally don't need or take comfort in the club having to come out and say it.

For me this is not about the club showing empathy which it has, it's them not proactively or seemingly picking a side which is what the modern world generally thirsts for. Everyone's obsessed giving their view and wanting to know everyones view.

 

[SubZero]

Surely that comes down to words are nothing until context/intent is added. Ultimately, offence is taken. Sometimes that's taken with intent being delivered, other times there is no intent given.
Tosser is a swear word. It might be extremely offensive to you. But why? It's not offensive when used in the context of the highland games. It may be offensive if someone still considers masturbation offensive. If it's delivered with vitriol, it's offensive.

Now of course the Y and N words are shaped by their historical context. However, context still comes into it. Rappers and Grime artists using the N word (including people that not black and/or of Afro-American heritage). It has been an attempt to reclaim the word. And I very deliberately use "reclaim". The n-word dates back to the 16th century, and used in a neutral way. It was developed by badly intentioned actors and used with vitriol to oppress. The word isnt the issue, the actions of the user are.

I'd say that the power of words are in the connotation. I would believe the number of people being offended by being called "successful", "winner" or "rich" are pretty much nil. The Ne-word may have been used neutrally, but in common language the Ni-word has not, to my knowledge. You may try to reclaim words, but it will always be an attempt. You can probably overload the use so that it loses some of the edge, but the connotation remains the same. I'm not saying that connotations cannot change though, or that any subcontext is set in stone. A few hundred years of worldwide black colonialism and power abuse with large portions of white people held as slaves and servants, systematically degraded and made inferior in every way by governments and societies alike would probably change the way words referring to that particular aspect of physical appearance were interpreted.

I'd also wager that a lot of white people downplaying the power of words today would be the first to whine, were the opposite the case. And I'm pretty sure a significant portion of the black population would be just as ignorant, given the same circumstances. It's in the tribal nature of humans, I guess. But that a group of people should dictate how another group of people should interpret and handle slurs about themselves is stupid beyond belief.

 

[Lemonade Money]

It's well documented that we sing yid army in support of our yewish fellow spurs supporters, and I thought we should be saying, we'll stop saying it, when opposition fans stop mouthing racist flimflam, kind of like, we only sing it to highlight and make other people aware of racist chants directed towards Jews,and outing said fans.
But what with what's going on in isreal etc, doesn't really sound appropriate at the moment to be talking about an army..

 

[Spur of the moment]

Surely that comes down to words are nothing until context/intent is added. Ultimately, offence is taken. Sometimes that's taken with intent being delivered, other times there is no intent given.
Tosser is a swear word. It might be extremely offensive to you. But why? It's not offensive when used in the context of the highland games. It may be offensive if someone still considers masturbation offensive. If it's delivered with vitriol, it's offensive.

Now of course the Y and N words are shaped by their historical context. However, context still comes into it. Rappers and Grime artists using the N word (including people that not black and/or of Afro-American heritage). It has been an attempt to reclaim the word. And I very deliberately use "reclaim". The n-word dates back to the 16th century, and used in a neutral way. It was developed by badly intentioned actors and used with vitriol to oppress. The word isnt the issue, the actions of the user are.

Monkeybarry take a bow! On SN&V we also have wisdom and profundity.

 

[scaramanga]

Tottenham chief resigns over "lack of moral clarity" on Israel-Hamas conflict
Jonathan Adelman, the chair of Tottenham's Tribute Trust, has tendered his resignation in an open letter criticising the club's statement in the wake of the Hamas attack in Israel


What an absolute tw*t. We are a football club, we should not be commenting on anything.

Saying nothing would have been significantly better than the milquetoast "Something, something, both sides" bottle job that the club put out.

Good on him for having the courage of his convictions though, many wouldn't. If the club is going to fail so hard in supporting its own community and help to create this false narrative of equivalence that continues to do so much damage, then shame on them.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Well, the conflict probably rules out any chance the club will be courting any Arab-based ownership or sponsorship interests. And given how oiligarchs and state ownership have worked to mis-shape modern football, I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

 

[Mikey10]

Well, the conflict probably rules out any chance the club will be courting any Arab-based ownership or sponsorship interests. And given how oiligarchs and state ownership have worked to mis-shape modern football, I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

If the money is huge, I don’t think it will cause a moment’s thought.

 

[parklane1]

Well, the conflict probably rules out any chance the club will be courting any Arab-based ownership or sponsorship interests. And given how oiligarchs and state ownership have worked to mis-shape modern football, I'm not seeing that as a bad thing.

Lets hope so.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Saying nothing would have been significantly better than the milquetoast "Something, something, both sides" bottle job that the club put out.

Good on him for having the courage of his convictions though, many wouldn't. If the club is going to fail so hard in supporting its own community and help to create this false narrative of equivalence that continues to do so much damage, then shame on them.

What is our community? I thought it was people of any nationality, race, ethnic group, sexual preference, political alliance, gender, financial position, religious belief in fact anyone who are foolish enough to follow us, all are welcome.