Is this the real problem at Spurs?

[superfaisty]

for me anyway desire is running around showing a bit of hunger for the ball and in the process inspiring others in the team to also play with desire.

Pochs system requires high tempo pressing if it's going to work, but we've not shown enough on the pitch to really look like we can play the way poch wants us to play.

I think there really is a mentality issue with a lot of our players and yes it might be due to experience but actually being young should mean your unencumbered with the 'loser' mentality.

Simeone managed to show last season what players with real desire and hungrer (and yes quality) can do. I'm not saying we can achieve the same but if we want poch to succeed he needs the players to show more desire in match situations.

 

[sc25]

for me anyway desire is running around showing a bit of hunger for the ball and in the process inspiring others in the team to also play with desire.

Would you say Rose resembles this in some ways? And yet, he's not a fan favorite or a 'Tottenham' player? He needs to improve some things like his crossing. But generally he seems to play with desire and a passion and a hunger and a mean nasty combative aggressive approach (and in the process gives some silly free kicks away). This is what we maybe need more of, yet he isn't really popular?

 

[braineclipse]

My point is "what is desire" and how do you define it?

Does it mean running after everything?
Is it simply body language?
Does it mean not being tall as it makes you look slower and lethargic?
Does it mean be good when you are average?
Does it mean inspire others?

I don't think "desire" translates to anything which can't be expressed more directly.

I think Suarez has more desire than Ade. I think Simeone's Atletico has more desire than most. What term would you use to express that more directly?

It might not be very easy to define, but I'm not sure if it can be described well with other terms that are any better defined. What does "the right mentality" mean? I know football manager had an attribute called determination, I think that's a similar, somewhat nebulous term, but an important quality.

 

[SteveAWOL]

No surprise to see we are top of this particular league after watching the Monday Night Football' analysis which starkly contrasted the workrate of the Southampton players in defending as a team compared to Spurs' lackadaisical approach...

 

[NickTB]

THIS is the real problem. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02b0gx7

If Poch didn't rotate so much we'd be fine

 

[tynesidespur]

My point is "what is desire" and how do you define it?

Does it mean running after everything?
Is it simply body language?
Does it mean not being tall as it makes you look slower and lethargic?
Does it mean be good when you are average?
Does it mean inspire others?

I don't think "desire" translates to anything which can't be expressed more directly.

To me it means the following (and probably a bit more):

Playing at a high tempo as this league demands.
Wanting the ball and not afraid to do things with it even when we are losing or the crowd are on your back.
Showing energy in wanting to win the ball back - especially when this is the manager's philosophy.
A never say die mentality - just because we are losing doesn't mean the game is over. Keep attacking the opposition and 'believe' something will happen esp in the last 10 mins.
Professional pride - even if we're 3 down show some personal pride to keep going and keep working. Heavy defeats due to various circumstances can be accepted but not capitulations (like last season)
Defending the box - often about who has the most "desire" to win a header or block a shot. How much do you want that clean sheet? Hugo has it, I'm not sure some of our defenders do.
Knowing when to foul the opposition - e.g. midfield runners flying past you - tactical fouls are a big part of the game and we don't do it enough. Liverpool at home - runners flying past but no-one fouling them, meanwhile in the other direction Lamela was the most fouled player by Liverpool's midfield.
Reminding team-mates of their responsibilities - word is Mason is showing just these qualities.
Protecting your team-mates - it was good to see us getting riled against Villa - I want to see a lot more of that.

 

[Andyandy]

No surprise to see we are top of this particular league after watching the Monday Night Football' analysis which starkly contrasted the workrate of the Southampton players in defending as a team compared to Spurs' lackadaisical approach...

It also shows how harshly we have been punished too...I.e. Our mistakes are more likely to result in a goal rather than a miss. Does that make us a bit more unlucky?

 

[Andyandy]

I think Suarez has more desire than Ade. I think Simeone's Atletico has more desire than most. What term would you use to express that more directly?

It might not be very easy to define, but I'm not sure if it can be described well with other terms that are any better defined. What does "the right mentality" mean? I know football manager had an attribute called determination, I think that's a similar, somewhat nebulous term, but an important quality.

I think what people mean by "desire" is that they want to the team to win but they aren't good enough. It's a lazy term like "play with pride" or worse "with passion"!

Football is about controlling your emotional state and thinking of clearly when you are exhausted, running, then taking advantage of a situation, a lifetime of training building up to that moment, millions of people watching, a world of contridictory advice etc. I want to see 11 focused players in the tunnel, emotionless, in control waiting to go out and win, not 11 hyped up individuals ready to get sent off.

Desire only looks good on TV it doesn't get you anything.

As for Suarez and Ade, Suarez does bite players and clearly has issues with controlling his emotional state. However when he is in control he is simply a better player. Increasing Ade's desire by offering him more money or whatever is never going to change that.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't know about that - desire to improve and a will to win are genuine qualities which the best players have over the also rans (relative to the standard of football of course) i think that is what people mean

 

[braineclipse]

I think what people mean by "desire" is that they want to the team to win but they aren't good enough. It's a lazy term like "play with pride" or worse "with passion"!

Football is about controlling your emotional state and thinking of clearly when you are exhausted, running, then taking advantage of a situation, a lifetime of training building up to that moment, millions of people watching, a world of contridictory advice etc. I want to see 11 focused players in the tunnel, emotionless, in control waiting to go out and win, not 11 hyped up individuals ready to get sent off.

Desire only looks good on TV it doesn't get you anything.

As for Suarez and Ade, Suarez does bite players and clearly has issues with controlling his emotional state. However when he is in control he is simply a better player. Increasing Ade's desire by offering him more money or whatever is never going to change that.

Controlling your emotional state is part of it. Being emotionless is not necessarily part of it. Finding the right balance is key.

I really think we're talking about different things. You said other terms could be used, I asked you which you would use for a couple of examples. I can't see an answer... Not sure where to go from that.

I actually think that desire, like determination is a decent term. It describes a state of mind that's not satisfied with being a very wealthy, famous footballer, but rather focus every day in training and out of it on improving and getting better. It describes a state of mind in matches where players put in a ton of effort even if things aren't going their way. To be a true top level professional I think desire is important. I agree that it's importance is sometimes overstated, and words like it are often used to explain what coincidence explains much better, but it's still a factor.

I have no idea what I've written that makes you think that I think that Ade's desire will be upped by offering him more money?

 

[mudshark]

I don't know about that - desire to improve and a will to win are genuine qualities which the best players have over the also rans (relative to the standard of football of course) i think that is what people mean

This is key for me. Having the determination and dedication to improving yourself as a player, rather than just going through the motions, shrugging off repeating the same errors week in, week out because you pick up your pay packet just the same. Beckham vs. Bentley.

 

[Andyandy]

Controlling your emotional state is part of it. Being emotionless is not necessarily part of it. Finding the right balance is key.

I really think we're talking about different things. You said other terms could be used, I asked you which you would use for a couple of examples. I can't see an answer... Not sure where to go from that.

I don't think "desire" means anything specific at all. It is another way of saying all they need is a little "je ne sais pas"! What's worse is that there is a perception that there is a switch for managers to turn which results in greater "desire". A better term for "desire" would be "be better at football", which is an obvious objective but at least it is real, direct and measurable.

I have no idea what I've written that makes you think that I think that Ade's desire will be upped by offering him more money?

This is quite interesting. How do you propose to make Ade as good as Suarez through increasing desire? I agree that its hard to motivate multi-millionaires by offering him even more money (it was only an example) but what other ways are there to increase his "desire" to "be better at football"? I would imagine that you would need to start by thinking of a way of measuring it, I suppose Dianetics would be a good place to start. That way you can measure the progress and find out out what works.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think "desire" means anything specific at all. It is another way of saying all they need is a little "je ne sais pas"! What's worse is that there is a perception that there is a switch for managers to turn which results in greater "desire". A better term for "desire" would be "be better at football", which is an obvious objective but at least it is real, direct and measurable.

"I don't think "desire" translates to anything which can't be expressed more directly."

I'm asking you to express it more directly...

This is quite interesting. How do you propose to make Ade as good as Suarez through increasing desire? I agree that its hard to motivate multi-millionaires by offering him even more money (it was only an example) but what other ways are there to increase his "desire" to "be better at football"? I would imagine that you would need to start by thinking of a way of measuring it, I suppose Dianetics would be a good place to start. That way you can measure the progress and find out out what works.

Have I proposed that we can make Ade as good as Suarez through increasing desire?

I think it's possible to work with the mentality of a squad and particularly younger players. Changing the mentality of a single 30-ish player is always going to be supremely difficult. I see no reason to think that it would have to be possible for my argument to hold up.

 

[Paul1eJ]

For me the issues are quite clear.

1. We have signed too many players, who when bought, viewed us as a stepping stone to the elite ...... chiriches, vertonghen, dembele, paulinho, lamela, eriksen, maybe even chadli spring to mind. Therefore their attitude towards us and losing is probably going to be more fickle than others.

2. Ripping the heart of the English core to our team. We got rid of some long term players for more fanciable names and a 'continental approach.' the worst thing is that can you honesty say fazio is any better than Dawson (both have a chronic lack of pace), chriches better than caulker, paulinho better than jake, capoue better than hudd? The answer is a probable no to each, which is scandalous when it was said we were upgrading. It is also natural that the guys who left had more heart and care for the club. Whilst none were world beaters, they are all decent players who put in 100%

3. Point 3 would continue on this when it should be noted that our transfer dealings have lacked strategy or intelligence. Yes we have signed some complete duds but it's shocking how we keep signing players without pace, strength and sadly..... Good technique. Heart will take you so far but we have a very average squad that ranges from 5/10 to 7/10 for the most part - combine this with a lack of care and you can see why we are getting beaten up like a league 1 side when we play a good team.

The immediate answer would be to form a squad around dier, walker, rose, mason, bentelab, Carroll, Pritchard and a couple of new ones coming through. All of these have experience and could be good back-up or starters for us next season. Expectations are so low that poch would be given good time if he was seen to be building something along these lines. I would look to really promote the next batch as well and bring a togetherness to te squad.

In doing so, bomb these flops out and replace them with either proven quality (ambitious signings) or players with prem experience (the likes of Reid, Barry, Lescott, Milner etc)have been linked and would have been able to lead the younger players and offer genuine quality.

Then add to the squad with players who see this as a step up and an opportunity as this sort of attitude will rub off on others. I was going to put Stromboli in the lacking quality list but we haven't seen enough and his attitude looks first class so he can stay!

Sorry for long winded essay but there are a mixture of problems that stems from attitude and quality/suitability and it will take us a while to solve it - if poch plays his cards right e has an opportunity to really change this club and be afforded time to do so.

This sums up the problem for me. Spot on. Levy has hired an italian to do an Englishman's job and we've seen that same italian make the hallowed turf of White Heart Lane turn into White Heart Pain, and the grass has become quick sand. Its absolutely chronic to think that we had 90m to spend and all we've done is spent it on players that are no better than what we had. In fact, it could be said that without Bale, Vdv and Luca, we're a million times worse.

For the first time in my tottenham love, I am wavering on support for both Spurs and Football as the panache and zip in our game has disappeared up Enic's ass.

 

[NWND]

No surprise to see we are top of this particular league after watching the Monday Night Football' analysis which starkly contrasted the workrate of the Southampton players in defending as a team compared to Spurs' lackadaisical approach...

But then again, you look at that and what tells me is that Liverpool and Arsenal have both made almost double the defensive errors that we have and that we are hovering only just above the 'fewest' defensive errors, but we are unlucky enough that 31 out of 37 errors led to goals, rather than missed chances.

That says to me not that we are making more errors, but that our errors have been punished more than any other team. I mean out of 37 shots the opposition had due to a Spurs defensive error, a rather ridiculous 31 have gone in. That's an error punishment rate of 84%!!!!!

 

[F10]

But then again, you look at that and what tells me is that Liverpool and Arsenal have both made almost double the defensive errors that we have and that we are hovering only just above the 'fewest' defensive errors, but we are unlucky enough that 31 out of 37 errors led to goals, rather than missed chances.

That says to me not that we are making more errors, but that our errors have been punished more than any other team. I mean out of 37 shots the opposition had due to a Spurs defensive error, a rather ridiculous 31 have gone in. That's an error punishment rate of 84%!!!!!

We dont have the ability to recover from errors or put pressure on the player finishing after errors. Thats why we concede so many. It all comes down to effort and desire to fight when all hell breaks loose.

 

[NWND]

We dont have the ability to recover from errors or put pressure on the player finishing after errors. Thats why we concede so many. It all comes down to effort and desire to fight when all hell breaks loose.

I'd accept that if the fact is that those figures give a figure for getting shots away. Ie opponents only managed to get shots away 37 times after our defensive errors. That's a low number like I said only just above the best teams. So you'd assume we must be good at pressuring or recovering from defensive errors as our errors only resulted in opponents getting shots away 37 times in 3 seasons. But then those were converted a ridiculous 31 times into goals. Is Hugo as good as we think?

 

[SteveAWOL]

It also shows how harshly we have been punished too...I.e. Our mistakes are more likely to result in a goal rather than a miss. Does that make us a bit more unlucky?

But then again, you look at that and what tells me is that Liverpool and Arsenal have both made almost double the defensive errors that we have and that we are hovering only just above the 'fewest' defensive errors, but we are unlucky enough that 31 out of 37 errors led to goals, rather than missed chances.

That says to me not that we are making more errors, but that our errors have been punished more than any other team. I mean out of 37 shots the opposition had due to a Spurs defensive error, a rather ridiculous 31 have gone in. That's an error punishment rate of 84%!!!!!

Those figures are exclusive and mean that Spurs have made 68 defensive errors in total of which 31 lead to a goal being conceded, a rather less punishing rate of 46%

Using the figures from http://www.squawka.com/ for the last 3 seasons

Emirates Marketing Project: 21/49 = 43%
S'land: 22/52 = 42%
So'ton: 22/53 = 42%
Villa: 18/46 = 39%
Wet Spam: 13/35 = 37%
Stoke: 17/46 = 37%
ARSEnal: 26/82 = 32%
Everton: 19/61 = 31%
Liverpool: 28/92 = 30%
Swans: 17/57 = 30%
ManU: 15/53 = 28%
Newc: 18/66 = 27%
Chavski 7/26 = 27%

So whilst we're still the league' whipping boys (only Scousers and Scum made more errors in total) Spurs are not all that much worse off than the likes of Emirates Marketing Project in the % of errors punished.

Most of our woes came during the turmoil of last season when 21 of 33 errors resulted in a goal being conceded, a conversion rate of 64%

 

[mudshark]

It's probably also a matter of where the errors are made (read the difficulty level of the resulting chance), and also the level of joined-up thinking in the defence that might result in the shot being blocked. One of the issues we have at both ends of the pitch is players ball-watching instead of making themselves useful. We hardly ever seem to win the second ball when it goes loose, either, for similar reasons, I think.

 

[Andyandy]

"I don't think "desire" translates to anything which can't be expressed more directly."

I'm asking you to express it more directly?

Lot of other posters on here are detailing what they consider what desire translates to in the real world no need to add to these. My point is that these represent specifically what needs to be worked on directly rather than "desire" itself.