Is this the real problem at Spurs?

[Jordinho]

can you honesty say fazio is any better than Dawson (both have a chronic lack of pace), chriches better than caulker, paulinho better than jake, capoue better than hudd?

Those we got rid off would never take us any further. Dawson - not been good enough for years. Caulker - too much baggage off the pitch. Livermore - too limited. Hudd - slow and more suited to sitting deep. Best we could hope for with players like that is 7th/8th place.

We've brought in players that have the potential to be much better. Not everyone will work out 100%, but it was a chance we had to take.

 

[diego_maradona]

For me the issues are quite clear.

1. We have signed too many players, who when bought, viewed us as a stepping stone to the elite ...... chiriches, vertonghen, dembele, paulinho, lamela, eriksen, maybe even chadli spring to mind. Therefore their attitude towards us and losing is probably going to be more fickle than others.

2. Ripping the heart of the English core to our team. We got rid of some long term players for more fanciable names and a 'continental approach.' the worst thing is that can you honesty say fazio is any better than Dawson (both have a chronic lack of pace), chriches better than caulker, paulinho better than jake, capoue better than hudd? The answer is a probable no to each, which is scandalous when it was said we were upgrading. It is also natural that the guys who left had more heart and care for the club. Whilst none were world beaters, they are all decent players who put in 100%

3. Point 3 would continue on this when it should be noted that our transfer dealings have lacked strategy or intelligence. Yes we have signed some complete duds but it's shocking how we keep signing players without pace, strength and sadly..... Good technique. Heart will take you so far but we have a very average squad that ranges from 5/10 to 7/10 for the most part - combine this with a lack of care and you can see why we are getting beaten up like a league 1 side when we play a good team.

The immediate answer would be to form a squad around dier, walker, rose, mason, bentelab, Carroll, Pritchard and a couple of new ones coming through. All of these have experience and could be good back-up or starters for us next season. Expectations are so low that poch would be given good time if he was seen to be building something along these lines. I would look to really promote the next batch as well and bring a togetherness to te squad.

In doing so, bomb these flops out and replace them with either proven quality (ambitious signings) or players with prem experience (the likes of Reid, Barry, Lescott, Milner etc)have been linked and would have been able to lead the younger players and offer genuine quality.

Then add to the squad with players who see this as a step up and an opportunity as this sort of attitude will rub off on others. I was going to put Stromboli in the lacking quality list but we haven't seen enough and his attitude looks first class so he can stay!

Sorry for long winded essay but there are a mixture of problems that stems from attitude and quality/suitability and it will take us a while to solve it - if poch plays his cards right e has an opportunity to really change this club and be afforded time to do so.

Sorry mate but this just reads as such an archaic attitude towards English football. Johnny foreigner cares less than the English players. Townsend probably cares more but his quality is atrocious in comparison to some of the others. It's not always about passion.

 

[LCLC]

I totally disagree and even then you are sort of agreeing with my point.

'Hudd too slow' - we then go and sign capoue who is as slow, lacks the ability and is marginally better positionally.

'Livermore too limited' - paulinho has woeful technique - even in the confed cup he was limited but looked like he could be a good DMC who got the odd goal. He gets to England and it becomes apparent that he lacks athleticism and desire. His record outside of Brazil should have been looked at.

Caulker isn't a great professional but we sold him and bought a 6ft defender who can't win a ball in the air, gets bullied by bigger forwards and is clearly error ridden.

Dawson was finished - yet we sign fazio who is as slow and so far has made careless passes and bad mistakes in every game I've seen...... Why sign him.

At least with soldado and eriksen there was pedigree there but whoever saw soldado and thought he can play up top on his own in this team should be shot on sight.... It was never going to work out.

 

[diego_maradona]

I totally disagree and even then you are sort of agreeing with my point.

'Hudd too slow' - we then go and sign capoue who is as slow, lacks the ability and is marginally better positionally.

'Livermore too limited' - paulinho has woeful technique - even in the confed cup he was limited but looked like he could be a good DMC who got the odd goal. He gets to England and it becomes apparent that he lacks athleticism and desire. His record outside of Brazil should have been looked at.

Caulker isn't a great professional but we sold him and bought a 6ft defender who can't win a ball in the air, gets bullied by bigger forwards and is clearly error ridden.

Dawson was finished - yet we sign fazio who is as slow and so far has made careless passes and bad mistakes in every game I've seen...... Why sign him.

At least with soldado and eriksen there was pedigree there but whoever saw soldado and thought he can play up top on his own in this team should be shot on sight.... It was never going to work out.

You've hardly seen Fazio play for any length of time to draw these conclusions about him already. That's completely unrealistic.

 

[LCLC]

Sorry mate but this just reads as such an archaic attitude towards English football. Johnny foreigner cares less than the English players. Townsend probably cares more but his quality is atrocious in comparison to some of the others. It's not always about passion.

You've got completely the wrong end of the stick here mate. Read again.

This has nothing to do with the fact they are foreign, but it's about both their ability and application in thinking they are too good for us. My point is that they lack quality so having players with prem experience or those who know the club would be much much better.

We lack experience, prem experience, quality and heart. I could throw back an accusation of ignorance when you think that Milner and Barry aren't as good as their foreign counterparts as technically they would walk into our team every day of the week

 

[AdamB]

No leadership on the pitch, no character, no heart in the main, too many players the same also

I like Pochettino a lot and am looking forward to watching HIS team play from next season onwards

agree with both points - on the first, similar to Poch's comment last week the mentality of a lot of our players is poor

And secondly, people need to view this year as a transitional season. Forget the league position - we don't have a realistic chance of top 4 and realistically there are plenty more than 3 worse teams than us. 5th or 17th is somewhat irrelevant. What is key is that Poch is given the time to develop the team and squad into what he wants and the players who stay get used to how he wants to play. Poch should be judged on results next season, not this season

 

[LCLC]

You've hardly seen Fazio play for any length of time to draw these conclusions about him already. That's completely unrealistic.

I've seen him enough to see he is chronically slow and will always struggle in the this league unless he has the perfect partner who complements him. Looks good in the air, average on the ball and has a mistake in him (could have conceded a pen against Brighton for example trough sheer stupidity)

Winston Reid would have been a similar amount and is so much more complete it's untrie

 

[diego_maradona]

I've seen him enough to see he is chronically slow and will always struggle in the this league unless he has the perfect partner who complements him. Looks good in the air, average on the ball and has a mistake in him (could have conceded a pen against Brighton for example trough sheer stupidity)

Winston Reid would have been a similar amount and is so much more complete it's untrie

I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously if you've already made up your mind based on what you're saying. Mats Hummels is a very good centre half. As much as I hate him, John Terry has been too. Both slow as they come. But positionally excellent.

 

[billyiddo]

seen enough of him, the guy has barely played 3 games hasn't he? :ross:

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I bet Benteke scores today, has not scored in ages, it is written.

 

[LCLC]

I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously if you've already made up your mind based on what you're saying. Mats Hummels is a very good centre half. As much as I hate him, John Terry has been too. Both slow as they come. But positionally excellent.

Terry is slow - fazio cannot move.

I've seen him and he isn't going to get any quicker - all we did was complain at just how slow Dawson was and how we lack pace at the back last season. We sell Dawson (fine) but go and sign a replica player - it makes no sense. Tell me where I've said I think Fazio will be a flop but clearly we have signed someone who will have the same issues that we were trying to get away from.

It makes no sense.

 

[Modric THFC]

I think this is the actual problem

Mentioned here by Miguel Delaney(journo that covers Tottenham) on the Second Captains podcast https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptai...a-man-utd-corner-watching-tv-with-roy#t=43:11

"From going to spurs a bit you do hear stories behind the scenes. And the suggestion for the moment is basically that while all the players are actually very impressed with Pochettino and the way he plays, he's not overly impressed with a lot of them."
"A lot of this squad, even players that only came last year, are already kinda conditioned to the idea that this is a club where the long term principles aren't really allowed to bed down."
"And you get at so many of these clubs this idea that 'well the players will be here for longer than the manager' "


Anyone remember that story about when Sacchi took over Milan. He faced a dressing room rebellion after a few bad results. Silvio Berlusconi went into the dressing room and addressed the players "I picked Mr Saachi and he will still be here next year. As for all of you, I couldn't be sure"

 

[diego_maradona]

I think this is the actual problem

Mentioned here by Miguel Delaney(journo that covers Tottenham) on the Second Captains podcast https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptai...a-man-utd-corner-watching-tv-with-roy#t=43:11

"From going to spurs a bit you do hear stories behind the scenes. And the suggestion for the moment is basically that while all the players are actually very impressed with Pochettino and the way he plays, he's not overly impressed with a lot of them."
"A lot of this squad, even players that only came last year, are already kinda conditioned to the idea that this is a club where the long term principles aren't really allowed to bed down."
"And you get at so many of these clubs this idea that 'well the players will be here for longer than the manager' "


Anyone remember that story about when Sacchi took over Milan. He faced a dressing room rebellion after a few bad results. Silvio Berlusconi went into the dressing room and addressed the players "I picked Mr Saachi and he will still be here next year. As for all of you, I couldn't be sure"

that would be ideal if levy did that

 

[superfaisty]

Take a bow Harry Kane- the lad showed today that extra bit of desire which lifted us when he came up and am chuffed for the boy even with the deflection to get his goal.

I think it helps that he had that extra bit of confidence that say ADE is missing at the moment from scoring in cup games.

For what it's worth I think Lamela does show that desire but like Kane it is a confidence thing for him, couple of things clicking for him and I'm sure he'll come good.

Still think we lack that but extra in cm- mason has that desire but Capoue just isn't disciplined enough defensively for me.

 

[Andyandy]

Desire? Way to simplistic and impossible to define. If it were about desire then why not pick the front row of the home end stand?

It's about the culture around the players, coaching, support staff, fans and media.

A good example is the last season of Alex Ferguson and the first of moyes. Champions to mid-table in one season, same players. The next summer they need to invest 150m to "catch-up" and currently have no decent defenders. Total capitulation of a club.

Every club needs a plan for the squad and a way they want to play. People talk about transitional seasons, it's more like 5 years to change a system and get everybody in place. The playing system is more importnt than anything else, bigger than any player or manager. The problem we have is that we change players, systems and managers too frequently. None are consistent and each are treated as a commodity. This problem starts at the top with levy who can't stick to managers.

 

[Craig_J]

Hate to be disagreeing with you again P55 but for all Lamelas faults i don't think desire/heart can be seen as one if them.

I think that we've had a huge turnover of players the last few seasons resulting in a lack of identity at the club - no real continuity or core group of players who have been here a while who the new signings can look to as 'Spurs men' makes it to easy for players to shirk responsibilty

This is a good point Bill and one that I had never even considered. I thought making to many singings perhaps meant that it was difficult for them to gel together but think you're spot on about having players with no club identity.

 

[supie]

Supie to your point about it being a bit simplistic - if it were that simple I would have thought Poch would've been able to get his system that worked so well with players arguably of lesser standard at Southampton across much quicker. Someone said it they seem to be showing desire in training but not in matches. If that is true it is a mental block thing as well.

I didn't say it could not be a contributing factor to our poor form; however I think it is a very British thing to associate failure solely with a lack of courage, desire and heart.

Having seen the villa game today I think it is painfully obvious that we are short on quality in key positions.

Kaboul, Capoue and Ade, who are supposed to be the spine of the team are simply not good enough and the overall sense of underperformance is compounded by guys like Eriksen, who are woefully out of form at present.

In terms of desire and heart, and in spite of their poor technique and shocking lack of tactical awareness, I didn't see any of these guys avoid things or not put in the effort.

We are like we are for a combination of reasons; however and like I said previously, quality and a lack of it in key positions is what is fundamentally behind our current situation not a lack of desire. No matter how committed a poor player is, he will, unless his skills and tactical appreciation can be improved upon, will still be a poor player.

Poch, on the face of it and based on his Saints days, seems like someone who can bring out the best in people, having said that a miracle worker he is not and unfortunately we have too many sub standard players currently within the squad.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[braineclipse]

Terry is slow - fazio cannot move.

I've seen him and he isn't going to get any quicker - all we did was complain at just how slow Dawson was and how we lack pace at the back last season. We sell Dawson (fine) but go and sign a replica player - it makes no sense. Tell me where I've said I think Fazio will be a flop but clearly we have signed someone who will have the same issues that we were trying to get away from.

It makes no sense.

That might have been your only complaint about Dawson, it wasn't for me.

You offer no counter to diego's point about other very good slow central defenders. Re-stating in a hyperbolic fashion that Fazio is slow doesn't make a point.

Desire? Way to simplistic and impossible to define. If it were about desire then why not pick the front row of the home end stand?

It's about the culture around the players, coaching, support staff, fans and media.

A good example is the last season of Alex Ferguson and the first of moyes. Champions to mid-table in one season, same players. The next summer they need to invest 150m to "catch-up" and currently have no decent defenders. Total capitulation of a club.

Every club needs a plan for the squad and a way they want to play. People talk about transitional seasons, it's more like 5 years to change a system and get everybody in place. The playing system is more importnt than anything else, bigger than any player or manager. The problem we have is that we change players, systems and managers too frequently. None are consistent and each are treated as a commodity. This problem starts at the top with levy who can't stick to managers.

Desire is not the end all be all, but it is important. If Ade had the desire of Kane or Lamela I certainly wouldn't have a problem with him starting every week. Now, not so much...

 

[Raziel]

Again, quite honestly .. nonsense

Professional players (the vast majority of them), od not get to the level to play for a club like Spurs without a great deal of desire/determination/drive.
You can't say Lloris/Rose/Mason/Soldado/Lamela/Kane yesterday showed any lack of desire/fight.

Why don't people understand if you look at tottenham over the last 15 years

Prior to BMJ, our team was just ****, one or two decent (sometimes very good) players, but awful squad
Quality/Experience got to its peak with Harry

Since Harry, AVB/TS/Poch have been inexperienced, made poor decisions, got hooked up on either formations/styles vs. just looking the resources we have and building the best side.

Poch yesterday

- Made a mistake by playing Ade/Capoue yet again
- Still has no idea what his midfield should be
- Has a huge issue with his newly named captain unable to deal with a diagonal long ball in the PL

Argument could be said we need experience, both at coach and key positions

 

[Andyandy]

Desire is not the end all be all, but it is important. If Ade had the desire of Kane or Lamela I certainly wouldn't have a problem with him starting every week. Now, not so much...

My point is "what is desire" and how do you define it?

Does it mean running after everything?
Is it simply body language?
Does it mean not being tall as it makes you look slower and lethargic?
Does it mean be good when you are average?
Does it mean inspire others?

I don't think "desire" translates to anything which can't be expressed more directly.