Ingerlund

[johnola]

I was wondering the other day, Do you think the majority of England fan... those that enjoy/support England through thick and thin, travel to watch them, Back Southgate not matter what etc. are mainly fans from lower league or non league clubs? I know it's a strange theory but if you support a top 10 PL club like we do then you see better football week in, week out than England ever offer up. I watch England pass it around their back 4 poorly, side to side and just think how Ange would have a fit if he saw us not able to get the ball forward like this etc. whereas if you support Torquay you are probably in awe every time you watch England play!

Just a theory lol

That and a lot of blokes who actually play football instead of sitting around drinking whilst talking about it !

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

They would have come through anyway. Possibly with a different emphasis but the point Bedford is making is that the City academy has always developed quality players and honestly a first team coach can't be given the credit for the development of the youth team players, that isn't how it works.

Pep gets credit for how he has brought Foden on, but the talent and initial development had nothing to do with him. Palmer is the same and probably even less so has he only joined City first team setup in 21/22 iirc.

Some strawman arguments being thrown around here isn’t there?! Pep produced / City produced, whatever, it doesn’t really matter it has no bearing on the discussion.

If he didn’t rate them he wouldn’t have played them, especially at such a young age. That’s the point, not getting hung up on some throwaway word “produced”.

 

[Bishop]

Some strawman arguments being thrown around here isn’t there?! Pep produced / City produced, whatever, it doesn’t really matter it has no bearing on the discussion.

If he didn’t rate them he wouldn’t have played them, especially at such a young age. That’s the point, not getting hung up on some throwaway word “produced”.

It's not a strawman. Literally no first team coach produces the youth team players. It's not their job, it's not their remit. That is the responsibility of the youth team setup of which City have pre Pep, pre Mansour had a very reputable system, rated and proven as one of the very best in England.

Let me put it another way for you. If Devine or Donley gets loads of starts next season and perform to a high level. Which coach are going to give credit to for their development? Ange, Conte, Nuno, Jose, Poch?

The answer is none of them, it will be the staff and coaching unit of the youth team development program. The first team coach can get credit for bringing them along but the talent and development will have already been set way before they ever touch the 1st team.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I was wondering the other day, Do you think the majority of England fan... those that enjoy/support England through thick and thin, travel to watch them, Back Southgate not matter what etc. are mainly fans from lower league or non league clubs? I know it's a strange theory but if you support a top 10 PL club like we do then you see better football week in, week out than England ever offer up. I watch England pass it around their back 4 poorly, side to side and just think how Ange would have a fit if he saw us not able to get the ball forward like this etc. whereas if you support Torquay you are probably in awe every time you watch England play!

Just a theory lol

I think they just go for the cocaine, prostitutes and violence to be honest. Im not sure anyone follows England for the football

 

[spurspinter1]

That was sumptuous from Maddison.

It was a dominant performance but two pretty severe individual mistakes made it look bad on paper. Apparently it was Pickford's first error leading to a goal, I guess he saves them up for Everton?

Toney looks a much better stand in for Kane. Mainoo looks terrific, not the usual over hyped Man Utd wunderkind, going to be a hell of a player.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What's the managerial merry-go-round we are hoping for then in the next few weeks then? Potter to Man U, Southgate to Chelsea and Poch to England?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

That was sumptuous from Maddison.

It was a dominant performance but two pretty severe individual mistakes made it look bad on paper.

Toney looks a much better stand in for Kane. Mainoo looks terrific, not the usual over hyped Man Utd wunderkind, going to be a hell of a player.

Maddison showing what England lack when they play Bellingham in the 10
That’s a role that needs a passer
Issue now is he will want two midfielders of the defensive type behind Bellingham rather than going brave and balanced and playing Rice, Bellingham, Maddison

 

[Gutter Boy]

Maddison showing what England lack when they play Bellingham in the 10
That’s a role that needs a passer
Issue now is he will want two midfielders of the defensive type behind Bellingham rather than going brave and balanced and playing Rice, Bellingham, Maddison

Which is ridiculous as Bellingham can be excellent in the 8, and Rice is the best 4 we've had since Ince.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Which is ridiculous as Bellingham can be excellent in the 8, and Rice is the best 4 we've had since Ince.

Yep
It’s the way we play at spurs
And the way arsenal kinda play
Suits the balance the team needs
But would mean Bellingham being a bit more disciplined (which may work now he is getting kicked to bits)
Also means you can play Foden or Rashford left with options
And Mainoo can come in to “stiffen” it up when needed

 

[spurspinter1]

Maddison showing what England lack when they play Bellingham in the 10
That’s a role that needs a passer
Issue now is he will want two midfielders of the defensive type behind Bellingham rather than going brave and balanced and playing Rice, Bellingham, Maddison

It's a tricky one, I can't say I'd call that trio in midfield balanced. Both Bellingham and Maddison will press, they aren't lazy but they aren't going to do the kind of job that Maino did tonight. Don't want them deep unless they're picking the ball up the defense so that leaves us open to counters. Someone like Rodri might be able to do it solo without much assistance but Rice isn't at that level.

Arguably I think we'd see the best of Foden in that 10 position as well, it's a good problem to have in having so much talent but I don't think there's an easy way to get the best out of everyone. Anything but winning the Euros will result in the expected Southgate bashing from the many England fans that only ever talk when there's something negative to say. It must be miserable wanting the team to lose so you can moan about it.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Yep
It’s the way we play at spurs
And the way arsenal kinda play
Suits the balance the team needs
But would mean Bellingham being a bit more disciplined (which may work now he is getting kicked to bits)
Also means you can play Foden or Rashford left with options
And Mainoo can come in to “stiffen” it up when needed

Definitely Foden left.

----Foden-------Kane------Saka
---------------Maddison
-------Bellingham----Rice
Chilwell-Branthwaite-Guehi-Walker
--------------Johnstone

Is as good as any 11 is the world at the moment (bit ropey defence and no depth, but otherwise)

 

[Gutter Boy]

It must be miserable wanting the team to lose so you can moan about it.

To be honest that Belgian team is so timeworn these days I kept expecting to see Preud'homme in net.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's a tricky one, I can't say I'd call that trio in midfield balanced. Both Bellingham and Maddison will press, they aren't lazy but they aren't going to do the kind of job that Maino did tonight. Don't want them deep unless they're picking the ball up the defense so that leaves us open to counters. Someone like Rodri might be able to do it solo without much assistance but Rice isn't at that level.

Arguably I think we'd see the best of Foden in that 10 position as well, it's a good problem to have in having so much talent but I don't think there's an easy way to get the best out of everyone. Anything but winning the Euros will result in the expected Southgate bashing from the many England fans that only ever talk when there's something negative to say. It must be miserable wanting the team to lose so you can moan about it.

Mainoo looks busy I’ll give him that. He seem to be in the right place a lot too. But is the aim to not lose or to win. I can’t see anyone in the midfield that started tonight or at the weekend who can pick a. Ball up deep and hit a variety of passes. I do see a lot of players who will try to pass and move in fast triangles but get caught out by better sides and countered quickly like we saw Brazil do.

Foden isnt a ten in this team IMO. His passing range is short passing and quick passing. We need variety that he doesn’t have. He should be operating more around the box where he excels because he class at that

What the team needs is…. a team

Everyone focus’s on the individuals and how good they are but it’s forgotten that it’s an 11 man game

It’s scandalous that Maddison has 6 caps when you look at others getting games.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

For years most PL club fans were saying Kane is not good enough for England and now we're saying Englands problem is he's too good, not to worry the media and pundits will find an other pretender to fill his boots and then scrapheap with Vardy, Abrahams, Calvert-Lewin etc.

 

[spurspinter1]

Mainoo looks busy I’ll give him that. He seem to be in the right place a lot too. But is the aim to not lose or to win. I can’t see anyone in the midfield that started tonight or at the weekend who can pick a. Ball up deep and hit a variety of passes. I do see a lot of players who will try to pass and move in fast triangles but get caught out by better sides and countered quickly like we saw Brazil do.

Foden isnt a ten in this team IMO. His passing range is short passing and quick passing. We need variety that he doesn’t have. He should be operating more around the box where he excels because he class at that

What the team needs is…. a team

Everyone focus’s on the individuals and how good they are but it’s forgotten that it’s an 11 man game

It’s scandalous that Maddison has 6 caps when you look at others getting games.

To bring it back to your original point, unless I'm mistaken, you're suggesting playing Bellingham as a deep lying midfielder alongside Rice, with Maddison ahead of them. To me that be like when Wales had the Real Madrid version of Bale and choosing to play him as a LB because that was best for the team at the team. England have a lot of talent but not enough that we can flippantly play Real Madrid's most productive attacking player as a holding midfielder, Southgate would get crucified for that, fortunately it's not going to happen.

With TV coverage it's always tough to know whether we missed opportunities by not having a passer in midfield tonight, I can't say. Both Stones and Dunk can ping it and Rice has the passing range as well.

The idea that Maddison is an auto include that would fix the team balance whilst shunting Bellingham out of his position is an odd one, do you truly think you'd be making that point if Maddison hadn't joined us? A player of his quality probably should have more caps though I can agree with that, although it's hard breaking in to a team as a play maker when you've got a player like Kane who can do that job better than 99% of the players out there. Plus, I may be mistaken but wasn't there a bit of a discipline issue when he was younger, something to do with a casino trip during a training camp that didn't endear himself to the coaching setup?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

To bring it back to your original point, unless I'm mistaken, you're suggesting playing Bellingham as a deep lying midfielder alongside Rice, with Maddison ahead of them. To me that be like when Wales had the Real Madrid version of Bale and choosing to play him as a LB because that was best for the team at the team. England have a lot of talent but not enough that we can flippantly play Real Madrid's most productive attacking player as a holding midfielder, Southgate would get crucified for that, fortunately it's not going to happen.

With TV coverage it's always tough to know whether we missed opportunities by not having a passer in midfield tonight, I can't say. Both Stones and Dunk can ping it and Rice has the passing range as well.

The idea that Maddison is an auto include that would fix the team balance whilst shunting Bellingham out of his position is an odd one, do you truly think you'd be making that point if Maddison hadn't joined us? A player of his quality probably should have more caps though I can agree with that, although it's hard breaking in to a team as a play maker when you've got a player like Kane who can do that job better than 99% of the players out there. Plus, I may be mistaken but wasn't there a bit of a discipline issue when he was younger, something to do with a casino trip during a training camp that didn't endear himself to the coaching setup?

No not at all
We don’t need 2 deep players
We need a holder - rice
Box to box - bellingham
Creative 10 - maddison

That for me is a balanced midfield

Maddison playing the 10 role has a goal or assist every other game. I don’t think there is another midfielder in the squad with those stats other than Bellingham who has been excelling as what the coach’s call the third man runner.. the lampard role as we could know it

And I agree rice can pass, he is quality and should be used as he is at arsenal. Dunk tonight couldn’t even stand up though.

As a spurs fan I like the idea of keeping as many players away from the England squad for a nice rest. But as an Englishman I want to see the team do well for the vibes it brings to the country. For me that needs the team which has the attacking talent, trying to attack. To attack you need to create and to do that you need players who can do that in midfield. Didn’t see any today until Maddison came in and he has had 6 caps and around 200 minutes for England if what EV read is right… that’s criminal

We all know that now Southgate will play rice, mainoo and Bellingham and England will look good for parts but won’t have the way to beat a team that’s got equally talented players or a coach who has a smarter set up

I mean he didn’t even give Braithwaite minutes

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No not at all
We don’t need 2 deep players
We need a holder - rice
Box to box - bellingham
Creative 10 - maddison

Southgates thinking might be that he leans towards two deep as an insurance against a ropey defence (which appears to be general consensus).

The Goons and City (for example) are probably happy with the ability of their defences to cope when exposed.

The problem with tournament football is have one horror show and you could be on the plane home.

To be clear I'm just playing devil's advocate, I don't watch England so don't have a clue what's been going on.
It looks a balancing act on paper and I can see why people want as many of the attacking players on the pitch as there appears to be a wealth of them. And of course there's the Ange effect creeping into what we want

 

[Bishop]

Mainoo looks busy I’ll give him that. He seem to be in the right place a lot too. But is the aim to not lose or to win. I can’t see anyone in the midfield that started tonight or at the weekend who can pick a. Ball up deep and hit a variety of passes. I do see a lot of players who will try to pass and move in fast triangles but get caught out by better sides and countered quickly like we saw Brazil do.

Foden isnt a ten in this team IMO. His passing range is short passing and quick passing. We need variety that he doesn’t have. He should be operating more around the box where he excels because he class at that

What the team needs is…. a team

Everyone focus’s on the individuals and how good they are but it’s forgotten that it’s an 11 man game

It’s scandalous that Maddison has 6 caps when you look at others getting games.

Foden best performances have come while playing in the centre. I agree he's more of a short passer but I don't think you can discard the idea of playing him where he has performed best. You build the rest of the side to accommodate the key players in the side. Maddison should have played more for England but Maddison 0ver Foden at AM? I'm not sure I agree with that sorry.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Foden best performances have come while playing in the centre. I agree he's more of a short passer but I don't think you can discard the idea of playing him where he has performed best. You build the rest of the side to accommodate the key players in the side. Maddison should have played more for England but Maddison 0ver Foden at AM? I'm not sure I agree with that sorry.

I’d play players where they play for their club mainly
Foden for me plays on the left of the attack
Who else plays there instead?
Rashford who has mixed to poor club form… Gordon who has played one international
Instead what we’re now seeing is a desire to okay a lad who has played less than 20 games in his career to help shore up a defence yet…. The United defence still looks poor when he plays. England conceded 2 goals with him and rice yesterday.
England’s best chance to defend is attack imo. But we won’t see that
I would not be shocked to see Henderson start again in the euros

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Southgates thinking might be that he leans towards two deep as an insurance against a ropey defence (which appears to be general consensus).

The Goons and City (for example) are probably happy with the ability of their defences to cope when exposed.

The problem with tournament football is have one horror show and you could be on the plane home.

To be clear I'm just playing devil's advocate, I don't watch England so don't have a clue what's been going on.
It looks a balancing act on paper and I can see why people want as many of the attacking players on the pitch as there appears to be a wealth of them. And of course there's the Ange effect creeping into what we want

England horror shows have come when we did t create anything , not when we have conceded
The Brazil game being a classic where we had plenty of ball and created nothing
Italy in the final… we had one shot on target all game ..one including extra time
People are panicking about the defence but I worry England don’t create much in reality with the players that are available