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Ingerlund

Bedfordspurs said:
But that’s guys would start for most teams in Europe

Have you seen the front line fl Germany, Spain, Italy, Belgium, Holland…

These are very good players but it takes time to settle into international football and we also have a very stagnant manager.

Kane because he is so good is huge for England. Kane because he is so good hinders England because if he ain’t there… there is no one with any game time
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They might start for Belgium and Holland but they'd be no better than squad players for Germany, Italy or Italy.
And that's all they should be for England.
None of them is displacing kane in any position kane chooses to play in, you'd still rather have kane pulling the strings than Grealish.
It's a problem England have never been able to solve, how do get the very best from our top players when they are surrounded by journeymen.
Having to pick "warriors" like maguire and Henderson or media favourites like Hart doesn't help.
 
glasgowspur said:
They might start for Belgium and Holland but they'd be no better than squad players for Germany, Italy or Italy.
And that's all they should be for England.
None of them is displacing kane in any position kane chooses to play in, you'd still rather have kane pulling the strings than Grealish.
It's a problem England have never been able to solve, how do get the very best from our top players when they are surrounded by journeymen.
Having to pick "warriors" like maguire and Henderson or media favourites like Hart doesn't help.
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I can’t agree
Italy have up front Raspadori… who has scored 30 top flight goals in Italy at the age of 24
There either store is the guy who failed at West Ham
Germany play Haivetyz as striker because they no one
Holland play depay
France play Thuram
These guys are not as good as Watkins or Toney
But the key is, what you said, none of them displace Kane

England’s problem isn’t the squad players. It’s the lack of balance in the team
If he wants to play 4-3-3 he needs a better mix of players. Bellingham should be the B2B and a player like Maddison in the creative role. That would be a better balance. Instead because Bellingham is top scorer in Spain we play him as a 10. He isn’t a passer. He is brilliant player but it’s all about getting on the end of things
Mainoo can play box to box and so can rice so that may work, but one is world class and the other is unproven.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I can’t agree
Italy have up front Raspadori… who has scored 30 top flight goals in Italy at the age of 24
There either store is the guy who failed at West Ham
Germany play Haivetyz as striker because they no one
Holland play depay
France play Thuram
These guys are not as good as Watkins or Toney
But the key is, what you said, none of them displace Kane

England’s problem isn’t the squad players. It’s the lack of balance in the team
If he wants to play 4-3-3 he needs a better mix of players. Bellingham should be the B2B and a player like Maddison in the creative role. That would be a better balance. Instead because Bellingham is top scorer in Spain we play him as a 10. He isn’t a passer. He is brilliant player but it’s all about getting on the end of things
Mainoo can play box to box and so can rice so that may work, but one is world class and the other is unproven.
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It's a good point, atm these countries don't have the front lines you'd expect them to have.
But they do negate it by playing in a system for the teams strengths, not to fit in the latest hot player.
Lost count the amount of times England have went into a tournament with a strong core and failed because they can't (or won't) pick a line up and system to make the most of what they have.
 
glasgowspur said:
It's a good point, atm these countries don't have the front lines you'd expect them to have.
But they do negate it by playing in a system for the teams strengths, not to fit in the latest hot player.
Lost count the amount of times England have went into a tournament with a strong core and failed because they can't (or won't) pick a line up and system to make the most of what they have.
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Which comes back to the manager again rather than a lack of quality players. As Bedford says the balance of talent isn’t quite right with England but that’s what the managers their to “balance”, coach and build a system to get the best out of them. Kind of how Argies were able to win the last World Cup, or the likes of Denmark, Greece, Portugal have all managed to win with very poor squads, MUCH worse than this England squad.

Edit: I’d throw Italy in the last Euros in to that list as well.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Which comes back to the manager again rather than a lack of quality players. As Bedford says the balance of talent isn’t quite right with England but that’s what the managers their to “balance”, coach and build a system to get the best out of them. Kind of how Argies were able to win the last World Cup, or the likes of Denmark, Greece, Portugal have all managed to win with very poor squads, MUCH worse than this England squad.

Edit: I’d throw Italy in the last Euros in to that list as well.
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No doubt the manager/coach has to take a fair bit of the blame, but for me the gap between Englands top players and the hyped (Watkins, bowen, toney, maguire, etc) is massive and is never accepted.
These guys aren't that good that you should be adopting a style that blunts you're genuine top players.
And it's just this crop, you can take this back decades.
 
glasgowspur said:
It's a good point, atm these countries don't have the front lines you'd expect them to have.
But they do negate it by playing in a system for the teams strengths, not to fit in the latest hot player.
Lost count the amount of times England have went into a tournament with a strong core and failed because they can't (or won't) pick a line up and system to make the most of what they have.
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England have issues that come from expectation over delivery as we can all see
The press and public pressure to do things that don’t always work is there too
There is a huge amount of quality right backs.. no lefts backs
The CB options are weak
There is now only one really quality holder in rice
The best striker in the world and arguably the best at whatever it’s is that Bellingham is
Saka walks into most sides too
But it’s a real odd mix now with an expectation that this team should win things
Argentina showed how you win when you don’t have a team of stars
 
glasgowspur said:
Grealish, bowen, Watkins, toney, there's the problem right there.
Over hyped players that England seem to think are going to make a difference.
They are slightly better than average, Watkins and toney are 28, Watkins is talked about as if he is 21.
They’re having a purple patch and suddenly they're £100m players that are thrown in to fail.
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No different to any other country, you'll have players of this level making up the eleven. A good manger can make brick players look better, and a brick manager can make good players look worse. England haven't got any particularly good managers, and Southgate isn't even the best of those. But we do have players good enough.
 
Lemonade Money said:
No different to any other country, you'll have players of this level making up the eleven. A good manger can make brick players look better, and a brick manager can make good players look worse. England haven't got any particularly good managers, and Southgate isn't even the best of those. But we do have players good enough.
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England have always had good players surrounded by average ones.
They've also had good managers, but they've never been able to make it work because the average players are not as good as they think they are.
I'd say that England and Germany have consistently produced the highest amount of quality players over the years, Germany find away to make it work, England find away to stop it working.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Going forward I believe we have the best players, and we have depth. We almost have too many attacking options to choose from. Defensively we are still suspect and other countries have the edge on us. So whilst I’d say we have the best players going forward, other countries have better defenders so it’s fairly even. No doubt we could win something if things go our way but we’re not head and shoulders above everyone else
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France have better depth. Significantly so.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
Well yea, produced meaning they came through at City whilst under Pep….
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They would have come through anyway. Possibly with a different emphasis but the point Bedford is making is that the City academy has always developed quality players and honestly a first team coach can't be given the credit for the development of the youth team players, that isn't how it works.

Pep gets credit for how he has brought Foden on, but the talent and initial development had nothing to do with him. Palmer is the same and probably even less so has he only joined City first team setup in 21/22 iirc.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Take Bellingham out and that team probably gets relegated from the EPL
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I was wondering the other day, Do you think the majority of England fan... those that enjoy/support England through thick and thin, travel to watch them, Back Southgate not matter what etc. are mainly fans from lower league or non league clubs? I know it's a strange theory but if you support a top 10 PL club like we do then you see better football week in, week out than England ever offer up. I watch England pass it around their back 4 poorly, side to side and just think how Ange would have a fit if he saw us not able to get the ball forward like this etc. whereas if you support Torquay you are probably in awe every time you watch England play!

Just a theory lol
 
glasgowspur said:
England have always had good players surrounded by average ones.
They've also had good managers, but they've never been able to make it work because the average players are not as good as they think they are.
I'd say that England and Germany have consistently produced the highest amount of quality players over the years, Germany find away to make it work, England find away to stop it working.
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In Europe?

It's 100% France especially if you take into account the number of French born/schooled/ trained players who chose to play for another national team. I'm talking the likes of Maharez, BAE, Mendy, Koulibaly, Benatia, Guerrero, Aubameyang, Kanoute etc etc etc. Too many for me to remember honestly. That's not even including the actually guys who play/ed for France like Zidane, Henry, Mbappe etc etc etc.
 
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