Hugo Lloris

[ArcspacE]

Do you think Brads massive record of not missing a game for a zillion years effects any decision? I don't mean solely (that's just crazy) but is there even a small thinking that says after a massive run of games it's only fair to wait for a couple of poorer games to help justify the decision?

I think if any manager (not just Avi B) is playing a keeper to keep his personal wikipedia statistics going should be fired on the spot and proclaimed dangerous

 

[Kingdawson]

'Fair' in your opinion.

As for 'reasoned debate' - you asked me to explain my ratings, I did so in detail, you didn't like the answer and contrinue with some 'haters' nonsense

?

Even your attempt at 'detailing' the criteria you go through when coming up with the bogus ratings was clearly biased. So when the 'evidence' you're providing to prove you're playing at an even playing field turns out to be biased than what hope have you got.

 

[ArcspacE]

How are they bogus or biased? Becasue you don't agree with them?

Was it not his debut?

Was his not assured at high balls?

Was Brad's distribution good against QPR?

Was he slow to read Faurlin's pass and come out too late to (at least try and) intercept Zamora (many fans have picked on that, not just me)

 

[billyiddo]

has brad done alot wrong? does he deserve to lose his shirt based on his performances? are al the goals primarily his fault in isolation? does he deserve to be judged on a higher criteria than someone else and have the scores compared directly and not standardised?

Firstly, i think too much stock is being put in how people rate the players - bet if we look at the average swing for each player on a match day Friedel will be no worse off than the others.

Secondly i don't think it's a case of Friedel 'losing' his shirt, it will be Lloris earning it. Lloris comes with a good reputation in the game, if the manager thinks he is the better player after enough time on the training ground then id expect him to be put in to the team, unless Friedel is playing 9s and 10s. You don't wait for a goalkeeper to make a mistake to replace him, imv, that would be a HUGE vote of no confidence and bad managment - let thenew guy settle in to training - monitor his progress and then put him in the team when he is ready.

 

[Kingdawson]

I think if any manager (not just Avi B) is playing a keeper to keep his personal wikipedia statistics going should be fired on the spot and proclaimed dangerous

The heel turn is complete.

 

[ArcspacE]

Secondly i don't think it's a case of Friedel 'losing' his shirt, it will be Lloris earning it. Lloris comes with a good reputation in the game, if the manager thinks he is the better player after enough time on the training ground then id expect him to be put in to the team, unless Friedel is playing 9s and 10s. You don't wait for a goalkeeper to make a mistake to replace him, imv, that would be a HUGE vote of no confidence and bad managment - let thenew guy settle in to training - monitor his progress and then put him in the team when he is ready.

Agree with this - Lloris has to / will earn his shirt as Brad is reliant enough (like a well looked after vintage motor) not to produce many shockers - his career proves as much - but he won't break the land speed record

 

[Kingdawson]

How are they bogus or biased?

Was it not his debut?

Was his not assured at high balls?

Was Brad's distribution good against QPR?

Wowzers well where do i start.

You gave a player +0.5 because it was his debut, you deducted Friedel one point for 'poor distribution' yet you decided against awarding Lloris one point for his supposed good distribution. So your criteria isn't fair and bogus...also if lloris was indeed awarded one point for his 'great distribution' you would have given him a 9/10 which would have made you either mentally insane, the most delusional man in the world, or simply a hater ( i though hater is the best of the 3 options).

You also made it pretty clear that you're not even judging the GK's equally based on one being a 'sweeper keeper' and the other being a different kind of GK. I mean it's so fudging ridiculous and sadly you don't see it.

 

[africanspurs]

Firstly, i think too much stock is being put in how people rate the players - bet if we look at the average swing for each player on a match day Friedel will be no worse off than the others.

Secondly i don't think it's a case of Friedel 'losing' his shirt, it will be Lloris earning it. Lloris comes with a good reputation in the game, if the manager thinks he is the better player after enough time on the training ground then id expect him to be put in to the team, unless Friedel is playing 9s and 10s.

You don't wait for a goalkeeper to make a mistake to replace him, imv, that would be a HUGE vote of no confidence and bad managment - let thenew guy settle in to training - monitor his progress and then put him in the team when he is ready.

i cant disagree enough with the bit in bold.

does that apply to other positions as well?

i dont think too much focus is being placed on how someone rates a player..not if they use that rating against another one unfairly. if someone comes off as making an unfair or biased comparison then goes on to use that notion of thinking when trying to justify a claim.....how can you not factor that in?

and friedel will have to lose his shirt or gracefully step aside

you talk about lloris earning it, fair enough...but this whole debacle IS about him earning that shirt. in most situations i would assume that everyone is made clear what is going to happen (talking about other clubs) , that x player has just been replaced on purchase of Y player so no issues or cloudy scenarios can manifest....but in this one something very rare and very pure / true is happeing...you have got to earn you place dammit. Brad is doing that..so llloris has to bide his time until he gets a chance to out do brad. he cant just walk in there if the coach doesnt want him to.

am glad you said he comes with a good reputation. is this enough to get you a starting spot ? void of actually doing something?

can i just add one more thing. if lloris actually moaned about earning his place as opposed to him just taking the gloves before saying bonjour in english......doesnt bode well for character reference

 

[africanspurs]

this is a very tough situation for the club. unfortunately AVB has put himself in this predicament by doing the right thing..with a bit of help from deschamps doing the wrong thing.

good luck to both keepers i say.

but i will be looking out keenly on our new potentially world class sweeper keeper...in your fudging face KD!!!! SWEEPER KEEPERs LIVE"!!!!!!!!

 

[ArcspacE]

Wowzers well where do i start.

You gave a player +0.5 because it was his debut, you deducted Friedel one point for 'poor distribution' yet you decided against awarding Lloris one point for his supposed good distribution. So your criteria isn't fair and bogus...also if lloris was indeed awarded one point for his 'great distribution' you would have given him a 9/10 which would have made you either mentally insane, the most delusional man in the world, or simply a hater ( i though hater is the best of the 3 options).
.

But it was his debut - which part of that isn't clear - would have given it to any player. Not sure how else to explain this any clearer

I also said many times - I would have given Brad the same rating it it was him with that performance at a debut

Lloris' distribition formed a small part of his performance that day (within the context of the game) - whereas Brad's long punts affected our possession negatively many a times - had a BIGGER impact on our game, imv (within the context of the game)

fudging hell - if my ratings bother you so much - just ignore it. It's my personal way of assessing their performance - never said it was the be-all and end-all for sports analysis

You also made it pretty clear that you're not even judging the GK's equally based on one being a 'sweeper keeper' and the other being a different kind of GK. I mean it's so fudging ridiculous and sadly you don't see it.

I never said that part - you're making brick up now or plain trolling

 

[Kingdawson]

His distribution is a chornic issue for me and something which always results in unnecessary loss of possession (and worse so when we're chasing games and need it the most). I'm sick to death of those long aimless punts to Defoe (!) which 99% of the time are lost balls. Might as well pass it back to their keeper, ffs. Therefore I will always rate him against that, sorry.

Lloris is suppossedly the sweeper-keeper AVB was looking at initailly (as a position) - someone who can carry out the ball from the back via the defenders/on the ground - something we've been doing well this season. You must have noticed we hardly every hoof from the back and always look to play feet which is mighty encouraging to see (and possibly part of the reason players like Dawson are as good as gone)

This was your post responding to mine asking how it's possible deducting a rating for Friedel doing something yo consider bad (distribution) yet not give Lloris an improved rating for doing that thing right (distribution). Seems like you're implying Lloris is a sweeper keeper so therefore should be doing well regarding distribution.

 

[ArcspacE]

Yes - Lloris is supposedly that player - there was some evidence of that against Lazio (encouraging signs so to say)


For the last time - and all in my personal view/assessement


- within the context of game (QPR) - Brad's below average distribution neagtively affected our possession/play - especially when we were chasing the game (!)

- within the context of the game (Lazio) - Lloris' above average distribution did not have enough impact on our play to deserve a +1 point for that - i.e. his distribution was the minimum standard I would expect from any decent keeper - he did what is expected - above average. If his distribution was outstanding (Robbo hey days - Berba to Keane) - easily a +1 point

 

[Kingdawson]

Ah i get it now. Now you're rating based on what the players attribute does for the overall team performance. You was thinking that deeply when conducting these rating.

Btw i'll make it clear now that i think the 'criteria' you've stated when conducting these ratings is not really what you was thinking when doing the ratings. In fact i'd go as far as to say it's all made up gonads that is being used to justify how you came up with your bogus ratings. In reality i simply think you got a little overexcited that the player you rate had a chance to start vs lazio, he kept a clean sheet, and you decided 8. You then watched friedel play very well vs QPR and it was hurting you deep inside so you declare that the goal is his fault and also his saves were straight at him in a desperate attempt to justify why Lloris should start. I think i'm closer to the truth then this criteria stuff you've just come up with anyway.

 

[ArcspacE]

I gave the same reasoning back in the Lazio thread - go have a look for yourself. Haven't made up anything today.

Your assumptions are false and you are now basically telling me what I was thinking when doing this ratings. Seriously, fella - are you The Mentalist? 'Hurting me to see a Spurs player do well' - sorry but that is the single most idiotic comment I've read in a long while.

Believe what you wish, I'm really not fussed. Nothing I say would seemingly change your mind, because you've already labelled me as something divisive as a 'hater' which in a way says it all.

I've now taken great time and detail to explain my ratings/rationale in a reasoned way (in about 10 posts so far) - while you in turn has thrown back nothing but libelous assumptions, condescending comments and border-line insults/accusations. Much like you've done in countless threads with me before.

I don't want infractions over this nonsense - over and out

 

[Kingdawson]

It's funny that you're the same poster that only last week labelled me a "AVB hater that will never give him credit" and now you're crying because i've labelled you "something as divisive as a ................hater':ross:

How dare i call you such a thing. I suggest you tell the mods about my "libellous assumptions, condescending comments and borderline insults".

 

[billyiddo]

i cant disagree enough with the bit in bold.

maybe i worded it wrong, but if all it takes to replace your first choice goalkeeper is one mistake or one bad performance then that is putting a huge amount of pressure on the player, whilst also being hugely unfair - surely the best course of action if you have a bad game as a goalkeeper is to get straight back out there and put it behind you? dropping him after a bad game/mistake is good for neither the team nor the player and imo would be bad management. what happens if Lloris comes in after a Friedel clanger and after a couple of games makes a similar mistake - keeping in mind we have already set the prescient (sp?) that a mistake means being replaced ?

does that apply to other positions as well?

goalkeepers are incomparable to outfield positions in this kind of discussion imv so not worth commenting on here


friedel will have to lose his shirt or gracefully step aside


you talk about lloris earning it, fair enough...but this whole debacle IS about him earning that shirt. in most situations i would assume that everyone is made clear what is going to happen (talking about other clubs) , that x player has just been replaced on purchase of Y player so no issues or cloudy scenarios can manifest....but in this one something very rare and very pure / true is happeing...you have got to earn you place dammit. Brad is doing that..so llloris has to bide his time until he gets a chance to out do brad. he cant just walk in there if the coach doesnt want him to.

am glad you said he comes with a good reputation. is this enough to get you a starting spot ? void of actually doing something?

i am going on the assumption that we signed Lloris because we see him as our new first choice goalkeeper and therefore an upgrade on our current goalkeeper. If we had signed him at the beginning of summer i would bet my right arm that he would have started the season as first choice. now, as he signed AFTER a couple of games, he must wait until he has settled in to the Club (in terms of training/interaction with the other players and so on) before breaking in to the first team. once he has shown that he has settled and is demonstrating his ability on the training field then he is ready to come in to the first team as he is (theoretically) the better player of the two - we aren't waiting for Friedel to make a mistake to hand him his chance, it's purely a case of selecting the best player when he is ready to be selected, as it happens Friedel is playing to a good standard so we don't have to rush things.

can i just add one more thing. if lloris actually moaned about earning his place as opposed to him just taking the gloves before saying bonjour in english......doesnt bode well for character reference

agree with that last point

 

[thfcsteff]

The fudging state of this thread

I don't understand why it's hard for some people to grasp that wanting Lloris in the team doesn't mean you are hating on Friedel and why such a big deal is being made out of how people choose to rate the performances of each - this doedn't need to become a devisive topic, but sadly some will be intent on making it one.

I am happy to explain that one!!!

It is because people feel that regardless of context, Friedel's form should keep him as our number 1. Which morally and in 'localised' terms is the decent thing to do and the right way to be.

I think what we are seeing right now is the fallout AVB suffered from his time @ Chelski with the media. Friedel is 41. Lloris is a quality, quality keeper (crunch stats all you want, you don't get to be your country's number 1 and skipper if you're average). We had the chance to get Lloris at a steal. We did what a long-term club would do and bought him. In the real world, the not-always-fair-and-fluffy world, yes, the same one that fudged Gomes off at every single chance without an ounce of context I might add, it isn't always especially fair or decent, in fact, rarely is it anymore.

I think if he and the club hadn't have had the media on AVB's back, literally hawking to watch him do something unpopular (something which sadly is not restricted to the media!!!!!!) then he would've taken Brad aside, said 'thanks very much my good man, I am bringing in the French national keeper, I need to integrate him soon as he is the future, you are welcome to finish out the season as his backup or if you'd like, I will let you go elsewhere for the final months of your career.' Instead, we have a situation where he cannot afford to do anything which might look like 'Chelsea-era behaviour' (especially given the brick he got for his move with Daws) so he has to tread very very carefully.

The easiest, and dare I say it, pussy way out, would've been not to sign Lloris.
But we NEED Lloris and we WILL need him for the next decade.

If Dechamps and the French destabilize Lloris, YES it's a load of gonads, but it will be happening. So at that point it's an academic question, not a theoretical one. What do we do?

And if it gets to that point, IM-unpopular-O, we will need to thank Brad and get Lloris in.

of course, being he idealist taco I am, I would hope that Friedel would have the class to see it all, but that IS both foolish and idealist, he wants to play until he drops and I absolutely get that PLUS he's playing the best he has since he arrived at us. I still believe age makes him unable to save certain types of shot, but I cannot deny he is playing really well.
Which makes this a case of doing what is right for the club generally.
Again, glad I'm not the manager, but if I was, I'd risk the wrath of the media and some fans!!!! But whatever AVB does here, he gets my support, including his stance right now...

 

[thfcsteff]

I think if any manager (not just Avi B) is playing a keeper to keep his personal wikipedia statistics going should be fired on the spot and proclaimed dangerous

No no no, that isn't happening.

I think I detailed what it is, hope so...

It's a very tough situation, because Friedel has really really stepped up to an even better level than last season (despite the goals against Norwich and the Baggies). He is playing really well!!!!

Following it to root, 'perhaps' we have to wonder again whether Levy mishandled the deal and should've got him in earlier for the extra couple mill? Friedel would've been clear on where he stood/we could have done the right thing there, Lloris would've come in as #1 from the start and AVB wouldn't have this problem to deal with!!!

Again, sadly, this situation really has everything to do with age and nothing to do with form at this point (as wrong as that is). And it is unique. Nowhere else on a football pitch does this situation occur!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

can i just add one more thing. if lloris actually moaned about earning his place as opposed to him just taking the gloves before saying bonjour in english......doesnt bode well for character reference

Excellent point.

I sincerely hope he didn't. I suspect that French media have manipulated him, and I think its only going to get worse frankly...

 

[ShelfLife]

Has anyone seen AVB's press conference being shown on SSN today? Apologies if already mentioned but I scrolled back a few pages an couldn't see any reference to it. Sky reporter asked whether he "understood Loris' frustration" at which AVB responded "how do you know's he's frustrated?" The Sky tosser then quickly slipped into reverse gear and said "no I was asking you if he was frustrated" before AVB came back with but your question was whether I understand his frustration.

It was quite beautiful to see AVB calling him out on his brick attempt at a loaded question. Well done Andre.