Harry Redknapp: The Aftermath

[totman]

So you are condemning people on the basis they judge on the last two months, but are happy to base your entire judgement on the next 5 games?

I don think he has been especially good with the squad. I think he has done a good job (results speak for themselves) but could have done better, so solid rather than spectacular.

He said "Well, at the moment I think that he has done a very good job over the last 3 years.." as his first line.

Next 5 games? Where did that come into it?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It could tell us if Redknapp can turn things around or not. Surely thats what should decide his fate?

I find the whole notion strange.

You start a project, you have a plan. If you exceed output during the course of that play, but by the end you have met the plan expectations then the project was a success. It's a marathon, not a sprint. If a runner sets off to fast and is running at world record pace for 24 miles, opens up a 200m lead and then due to fatigue tails off, finishes 4th but still sets a new PB then that runner has had a fantastic run.

It's the destination that is important. Not the journey.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He said "Well, at the moment I think that he has done a very good job over the last 3 years.." as his first line.

Next 5 games? Where did that come into it?

the slump that we are currently in is a new challenge, and how well Harry can get us out of it will affect what I think of him. If he can get the players playing with confidence again, and we end up getting good results and performances and finishing 4th, I'll continue to be impressed by him. If he can't, and we end up 5th or 6th, I'll be disappointed in his inability to motivate the players when things aren't going well.

 

[totman]

No, Im not. Im judging this season on ..... this season (strangely enough). Im judging Harry Redknapp on his time with the club.

Its not the last two months in isolation at all.

I was involved in very similar debate last summer, this isnt knee jerk at all. At the time I had concerns that we lacked a system of play, that we were poor in the transfer market and that the squad was out of balance. The first half of the season abated those fears because it seemed to me we were establishing a system - I thought Harry was putting things right (that I saw as wrong). It seems to me now he did nothing of the sort, he just got the lads on fire and kept them there (a particular skill of his) and I had misinterpreted it as preparation and development.

Sorry if Im picking you up wrong, but as far as I can make out, you have stated that winning all of our remaining 5 games will not change how you judge Harry, because (as far as I can make out), the slump of the last two months is unacceptable?

And even though you feel that the first half of the season was brilliant, you will also not judge him on that?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think you are picking me up wrong...

 

[totman]

@Nayim

Yes Im aware of that, but what elltrev is saying (I assume) is that the next 5 games will give him a better picture of Harry's capabilities, as he is taking into account the past three years of Harrys reign as being a job well done. He is using perspective.

Therefore, he is not judging Harry on 5 games, but 3 whole seasons.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Wenger, Ferguson, Mancini, Moyes, Pardew, ONeil, Lambert, Rodgers, Pulis and Martinez are all streets ahead of him with regard to preparing a team and embedding a style of play.

Possibly only Ferguson is above him with regards to motivating players.

Plenty in front of him in the transfer market.

As an overall package? Probably about 5/6th. Though its hard to say given that there are a good few managers who havent enjoyed the resources Harry has.

And where do see Tottenham's XI and squad?

For me Chelsea and City have the two best teams. Chelsea, even with its ageing stars (which actually aren't as ageing as people make out, Giggs, Scholes anyone?) have the strongest team for me and should win the league. City should run them a close second. Utd's achievement is fantastic this season, even if they blow it and finish 2nd. They have the 3rd best team in the land but are some way behind Chelsea and City.

4th? That's us or Arsenal. There is little to choose between us. We under rate their players, over rate our own. Both teams are fine with key personnel fully fit, but both teams lose two or three players and they go from the 4th best team to a team more akin to 6th or 7th best team.

 

[elltrev]

So you are condemning people on the basis they judge on the last two months, but are happy to base your entire judgement on the next 5 games?

I don think he has been especially good with the squad. I think he has done a good job (results speak for themselves) but could have done better, so solid rather than spectacular.

I knew you were going to say that!

I won't be basing my entire judgement on the next 5 games. It's just that the next 5 games will play a big part in this season, and this season will play a big part in his whole time here.

 

[totman]

I think you are picking me up wrong...

Fair enough, sorry about that.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I knew you were going to say that!

I won't be basing my entire judgement on the next 5 games. It's just that the next 5 games will play a big part in this season, and this season will play a big part in his whole time here.

I agree with this. The next 5 games don't mean much. It's the entire 38 games that mean something. If we win the next 5 games it hasn't because we have magically found form, it's because the opposition (on paper) are easier than the last 5 matches we've played.

 

[totman]

I agree with this. The next 5 games don't mean much. It's the entire 38 games that mean something. If we win the next 5 games it hasn't because we have magically found form, it's because the opposition (on paper) are easier than the last 5 matches we've played.

Id say its a bit of both to be fair. We have lost to teams we shouldnt have, and form or lack of it has played a part. Winning the next 5 games would be something to give the manager and players alot of credit for imo.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Id say its a bit of both to be fair. We have lost to teams we shouldnt have, and form or lack of it has played a part. Winning the next 5 games would be something to give the manager and players alot of credit for imo.

For me there is no excuse for the Norwich game. We were brick. The other games where people have had knives out for us, I don't actually think we've been that bad. I thought we played well against Sunderland for example. There are no easy away games in the Premiership and as I've stated loads of times the home time for me is at least evens for a win even if the home team is bottom of the league and is playing the league leader. So for me Arsenal away and Norwich at home were appalling performances. All the other performances have ranged from acceptable to decent, but we just haven't got the results to back it up. A nice return to form AND results would be this Sunday please.....

 

[scaramanga]

I find the whole notion strange.

You start a project, you have a plan. If you exceed output during the course of that play, but by the end you have met the plan expectations then the project was a success. It's a marathon, not a sprint. If a runner sets off to fast and is running at world record pace for 24 miles, opens up a 200m lead and then due to fatigue tails off, finishes 4th but still sets a new PB then that runner has had a fantastic run.

It's the destination that is important. Not the journey.

Quite the opposite.

The project analogy doesn't work here, because projects have finite targets and there is rarely a vested interest in continuing past that point.

In our case, we need to continue to progress until we've won everything and then continue winning it all every year. There'd be little point in setting a target lower than the top and not bothering try and improve on that.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Quite the opposite.

The project analogy doesn't work here, because projects have finite targets and there is rarely a vested interest in continuing past that point.

In our case, we need to continue to progress until we've won everything and then continue winning it all every year. There'd be little point in setting a target lower than the top and not bothering try and improve on that.

The project is a season.
The programme is the following season and beyond.

 

[totman]

Its a shame quoting from another thread has been outlawed, because right now its relevant. But at least two different posters have said exactly that.

Actually, Im wrong. They said it in this thread, a few pages back.

 

[scaramanga]

The project is a season.
The programme is the following season and beyond.

Again though, the project mentality suggests that you're happy with the original target (let's say 4th) but would be entirely uninterested in achieving more than that.

Your analogy also disregards the effect of external influences.

Over the summer I'd have been very happy with 4th. Given the performance of Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season, 4th can only be seen as a failure - albeit a minor one, but a failure all the same.

 

[totman]

The project is a season.
The programme is the following season and beyond.

Exactly. What team starts the season and says "our target is to be 14th by February....if we are there, then our target is to stay up"

The target is to stay up from the off. Finishing comfortably in 8th would be a massive bonus, not suddenly the new target.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Again though, the project mentality suggests that you're happy with the original target (let's say 4th) but would be entirely uninterested in achieving more than that.

Your analogy also disregards the effect of external influences.

Over the summer I'd have been very happy with 4th. Given the performance of Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season, 4th can only be seen as a failure - albeit a minor one, but a failure all the same.

Actually I am wrong. In Prince2 methodology a season would be a project and you would then have a project every season. You have a Lessons Log at both the end of one project and the start up of the next, which would detail areas where the project could have been improved or should be improved.

Thus the project analogy is correct!

 

[elltrev]

Again though, the project mentality suggests that you're happy with the original target (let's say 4th) but would be entirely uninterested in achieving more than that.

Your analogy also disregards the effect of external influences.

Over the summer I'd have been very happy with 4th. Given the performance of Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this season, 4th can only be seen as a failure - albeit a minor one, but a failure all the same.

It's not that you're uninterested in finishing higher than your original target, it's just that you're relatively satisfied (though still a little disappointed) with only hitting it, even if for a while you thought you might hit an even higher one.

As far as Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool.... Arsenal have been good actually, and are on course for 74 points (enough to get them 2nd place last year). So if we finished 4th we'd only be behind them, which there is no shame in (last season we got 62 points). If we finish 4th, ahead of Chelsea and Liverpool, I don't see how it can be considered a failure based on them being poor?!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im a trader. Im looking to make a 20% profit on the days trading. That represents a good return, Im happy with that and so is my boss.

By 3 in the afternoon Im up to 50% profit. Result! I could do everything I can to protect that added profit, perhaps even build on it, or I could just tinkle the extra 30% up the wall knowing full well the 20% is the "target" and still represents success