• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Grealish

SpurMeUp said:
I find it hard to believe he's on 90k a week. Where was this from?
Click to expand...

It was widely reported when he moved and has been referenced since plenty of times, of course you never get official information regarding individual players wages so it's open to questioning but no different to any other players wage that we assume to be as reported.
 
harr1984 said:
£30m for Grealish might sound like a lot now but I’d bet in a year he’d be worth much more than that. I think he’d get more game time than some think, and will be in the England squad within a few months at most of being here. Sissoko whilst I think has a rough ride on here and for me has done a decent job, we could get a more talented player with that money....
Click to expand...
You can afford to make that bet - you don't have to back it with £30m plus wages.
 
DeanoAustin said:
So a quick google search says that as of 2017 (the last time we published accounts) we had drawn down 100m of a loan and had a 5 year 400m loan facility of which we wouldn’t have to repay anything until we opened the stadium. We had another 70m of loans on our balance sheet at that time and 200m in cash or cash equivalents. Our equity was about 227m so our debt to equity ratio (or leverage) was reasonably healthy at 0.7.

So even with the stadium debt, we’re not too heavily leveraged and have a lorry load of cash sitting on our balance sheet.

At that point, we’d spent over 300m on the stadium, the majority of which was financed by the club. Levy was obviously hoping we could finance most of the rest of it because the 400m was just a facility payable over several years rather than an actual loan.

Looking at Man U for example (I couldn’t find Liverpool’s published accounts), they had around 500m in borrowings against equity of 414m meaning they are far more leveraged than us (ratio is 1.2 compared to our 0.7).

The short version is, I’m sure the banks would loan us money, we’re in a healthy position. Levy runs a fantastic but cautious business.

However, that is from a quick internet search via phone from someone who isn’t a financial expert. So if anyone has numbers that supersede that or my interpretation is wrong, I’ll happily stand corrected.
Click to expand...
Taking your numbers at face value, it really doesn't matter that we're less leveraged than Utd - they're a far safer investment. Their brand alone protects them from any short to medium term fluctuations in profits. And you're right that our level of leverage isn't particularly scary.

None of that means we don't have covenants to keep to, or that when the loans were initially drawn up that we were allowed any headroom.
 
scaramanga said:
Taking your numbers at face value, it really doesn't matter that we're less leveraged than Utd - they're a far safer investment. Their brand alone protects them from any short to medium term fluctuations in profits. And you're right that our level of leverage isn't particularly scary.

None of that means we don't have covenants to keep to, or that when the loans were initially drawn up that we were allowed any headroom.
Click to expand...

You’re the one who mentioned leverage and it does matter when it comes to borrowing. Taking Arsenal, they’re far more leveraged than us too (at a ratio of 1.2).

When you talk about the ability to service the debt from ongoing operations, we made 58m in 2017, United made 57m and Arsenal made 45m. (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...06/premier-league-finances-club-guide-2016-17)

Read those numbers again. Those clubs are more heavily leveraged than us, considerably so, and we’re making more profit than them. Now Arsenal, for example, pay about 13m more to service their debt than us currently but we’re about to grow our revenue by 50m a season minimum.

We may have covenants but you’re speculating. We may not or they may not be as restrictive as you think. Arsenal and United could have them too.

Levy is a great businessman. Looking at the accounts today, I’m even more blown away by what he has done. He also has great long term vision. What he’s done since 2001 has been incredible. No other club has improved by as much as us organically. He’s been a top top chairman.

But here’s my issue. This is the best team we’ve had in my lifetime. Levy might have a 5 or 10 year vision for this club and probably does. Harry Kane, Christian Eriksen, Dele Alli, Eric Dier, Hugo Lloris, Davinson Sanchez don’t have 5 or 10 years to wait for that vision to come to fruition. They have short careers and want to win trophies. They need to see something happen in the next couple of seasons or they’ll look elsewhere. Pochettino too.

The club has a chance to cement and build on the exciting squad we have now and that chance may not come again for a generation. We’re missing the boat if we don’t make a couple of quality signings. And I believe we could easily do it without risking the club’s future.
 
DeanoAustin said:
You’re the one who mentioned leverage and it does matter when it comes to borrowing. Taking Arsenal, they’re far more leveraged than us too (at a ratio of 1.2).

When you talk about the ability to service the debt from ongoing operations, we made 58m in 2017, United made 57m and Arsenal made 45m. (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.the...06/premier-league-finances-club-guide-2016-17)

Read those numbers again. Those clubs are more heavily leveraged than us, considerably so, and we’re making more profit than them. Now Arsenal, for example, pay about 13m more to service their debt than us currently but we’re about to grow our revenue by 50m a season minimum.

We may have covenants but you’re speculating. We may not or they may not be as restrictive as you think. Arsenal and United could have them too.

Levy is a great businessman. Looking at the accounts today, I’m even more blown away by what he has done. He also has great long term vision. What he’s done since 2001 has been incredible. No other club has improved by as much as us organically. He’s been a top top chairman.

But here’s my issue. This is the best team we’ve had in my lifetime. Levy might have a 5 or 10 year vision for this club and probably does. Harry Kane, Christian Eriksen, Dele Alli, Eric Dier, Hugo Lloris, Davinson Sanchez don’t have 5 or 10 years to wait for that vision to come to fruition. They have short careers and want to win trophies. They need to see something happen in the next couple of seasons or they’ll look elsewhere. Pochettino too.

The club has a chance to cement and build on the exciting squad we have now and that chance may not come again for a generation. We’re missing the boat if we don’t make a couple of quality signings. And I believe we could easily do it without risking the club’s future.
Click to expand...
How leveraged other clubs are compared to us is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how much of a risk we're seen as by lenders. We're far more risky a prospect because we're far newer to the big money game that they've all been playing for over a decade.

This will only be exacerbated by the fact that much of our projected income is from stadium revenue that has yet to materialise and TV revenue that has no guarantee past the current contract. That's where longevity and brand come into play. As far as lenders are concerned we have neither.

What we do have is a very sensible fiscal policy (with some weird, Sissoko-shaped aberrations) and that's what will make us able to continue to finance in the way we want and need to.

Levy has always maintained, and has so far shown, that the money is therefore the right player. If a special player becomes available to us, we will make it work. Grealish isn't that, he's not even nearly that.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Levy is a great businessman. Looking at the accounts today, I’m even more blown away by what he has done. He also has great long term vision. What he’s done since 2001 has been incredible. No other club has improved by as much as us organically. He’s been a top top chairman.

But here’s my issue. This is the best team we’ve had in my lifetime. Levy might have a 5 or 10 year vision for this club and probably does. Harry Kane, Christian Eriksen, Dele Alli, Eric Dier, Hugo Lloris, Davinson Sanchez don’t have 5 or 10 years to wait for that vision to come to fruition. They have short careers and want to win trophies. They need to see something happen in the next couple of seasons or they’ll look elsewhere. Pochettino too.

The club has a chance to cement and build on the exciting squad we have now and that chance may not come again for a generation. We’re missing the boat if we don’t make a couple of quality signings. And I believe we could easily do it without risking the club’s future.
Click to expand...

I do share your concern about players leaving and/or having their heads turned if they dont see the ambition at the club. We've obviously survived big players leaving before but it does cause something of a re-set. My biggest fear of our current crop is Eriksen departing for Barca
 
scaramanga said:
How leveraged other clubs are compared to us is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how much of a risk we're seen as by lenders. We're far more risky a prospect because we're far newer to the big money game that they've all been playing for over a decade.

This will only be exacerbated by the fact that much of our projected income is from stadium revenue that has yet to materialise and TV revenue that has no guarantee past the current contract. That's where longevity and brand come into play. As far as lenders are concerned we have neither.

What we do have is a very sensible fiscal policy (with some weird, Sissoko-shaped aberrations) and that's what will make us able to continue to finance in the way we want and need to.

Levy has always maintained, and has so far shown, that the money is therefore the right player. If a special player becomes available to us, we will make it work. Grealish isn't that, he's not even nearly that.
Click to expand...

Leverage is very relevant when lenders assess who to lend to. If United were leveraged to 10 times their value, and we were at 0.7 of ours, were a safer bet for the lender to get their money back especially when we’re making more money than United. Longevity and brand mean nothing to a lender unless it’s monatised and reflected in your accounts. We made more profit than any other PL club in 2017 bar Leicester (which was a one off).

If the TV revenue goes for us, it goes for everyone. That’s a risk for every club. We’re also guaranteed revenue from the new stadium. That’s not a risk. We will sell more than 36,000 tickets to every game. We also have a deal with the nfl and if anyone thinks Levy won’t get naming rights, you’re nuts. The stadium will bring in extra revenue. This is not like banking on CL qualification. This is money we will get.

I’m not saying Grealish is a special player. Anything but. We need better than him although I think he’d be a decent addition. We need a couple of players at the level that Levy hasn’t signed in a long time (probably since VDV).
 
Does signing inferior players show ambition? We’ve not been seriously linked with anyone who would get anywhere near the first team without a glut of injuries and/or suspensions.
 
galeforce said:
Does signing inferior players show ambition? We’ve not been seriously linked with anyone who would get anywhere near the first team without a glut of injuries and/or suspensions.
Click to expand...

Martial? Kovacic? Zaha? De Ligt?

These players would improve us or at least put pressure on the first 11 and keep it fresh.
 
galeforce said:
I’ve not seen any evidence that we have bid for martial, kavacic or De Ligt and Zaha is brick.
Click to expand...

You said “seriously linked”. We’ve certainly inquired about Zaha and Kovacic according to multiple media reports.

And I’d be amazed if we didn’t mention Martial when United came knocking for Toby.

These are the level of players we need to sign. Grealish would be fine but these three are a level or two ahead of him and would improve us right away.

Zaha is a player. Won games on his own for Palace and Fergie, although not infallible, saw something in him.
 
galeforce said:
Does signing inferior players show ambition? We’ve not been seriously linked with anyone who would get anywhere near the first team without a glut of injuries and/or suspensions.
Click to expand...

I think if we look back your point could have been lifted from a Dier or Dele pre-spurs thread. Grealish is a little raw for me but if Poch can see a diamond in the rough then who am I to disagree :)

Your final point is actually what I think is the real situation, with the addition we are after specific targets and the negotiations are ongoing and complicated.
 
HonorOakHotspur said:
I think if we look back your point could have been lifted from a Dier or Dele pre-spurs thread. Grealish is a little raw for me but if Poch can see a diamond in the rough then who am I to disagree :)

Your final point is actually what I think is the real situation, with the addition we are after specific targets and the negotiations are ongoing and complicated.
Click to expand...

maybe, but we have Dier and Dele now, the bar has been raised
 
DeanoAustin said:
You said “seriously linked”. We’ve certainly inquired about Zaha and Kovacic according to multiple media reports.

And I’d be amazed if we didn’t mention Martial when United came knocking for Toby.

These are the level of players we need to sign. Grealish would be fine but these three are a level or two ahead of him and would improve us right away.

Zaha is a player. Won games on his own for Palace and Fergie, although not infallible, saw something in him.
Click to expand...

fair enough, I can't say I've seen it from a source I trust

have we had confirmation united have enquired about Toby?

I don't rate Zaha, whatever Fergie saw in him United bombed him out pretty quickly
 
Would Villa be playing him for 83 mins in a Championship away game if they were about to sell him for 30m? Seems risky.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Martial? Kovacic? Zaha? De Ligt?

These players would improve us or at least put pressure on the first 11 and keep it fresh.
Click to expand...

I have to say, De Ligt makes sense. Martial, Kovacic, Zaha all make sense on paper, Zaha the most simply because he is British. But in order to make any major signing, we have to shift for squad numbers. And we have to know they will fit our vibe and structure. I do not know anything about Martial beyond what I see, but he strikes me as a camper who will be unhappy unless he walks into the first 11, and plainly, Poch signs players to train. Can we REALLY "afford" to gamble on a player who might get the hump in the wrong way unless he is starting every week? I don't know mate, but I trust that lot down the Lane do...let's hope so anyway!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back