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Get us out of the europa league!!!!!

Agreed. Flying over to a nice hotel in Dortmund, Naples or Marseille for example is nothing compared to a 3000 mile round trip to some random part of Ukraine where the facilities and weather are terrible, nobody speaks English and there's a civil war almost breaking out around you.

The civil war thing and the language thing is complete nonsense and bears no effect at all. They are not in the country long enough for that to be a problem. The distance of trip can be an issue and the pitch was certainly a problem but overall it is not an excuse. We bottle things literally every season and it doesn't coincide with Europa league games all the time. And what about th games at home where no travel is involved?

These are highly paid and supposedly highly motivated professionals. They do nothing else other than prepare themselves for games and playing 90 minutes so even if a couple of players are off the pace, the other 8-9 shouldn't be as equally off the pace as they were today. Players who didn't go to Ukraine were poor as well.

This problem is bigger than the Europa League. It is about mentality and desire. These are things that you don't teach. You are complacent by nature or you aren't. And if it is nutured then you should be able to have learnt from previous complacent performances. That performance today was complacent, arrogant and totally unacceptable. Yes, Sherwood got tactics wrong and looked slow to change things but the players have to take most of the blame.

They have more than enough quality about them if they approach it properly to go out there to be able at least perform in a manner that could get a result. That didn't happen so collectively and individually they should ask why that is. How much more motivation do you need? Liverpool go 6 points clear and you can put the pressure on them again and ask them another question but instead they play with an arrogance that suggests they feel that just turning up against Norwich should secure 3 points.

That is the real problem, not this crap being spouted about a 36 hour trip causing one of the biggest squads in this division a problem.
 
the point is that there are plenty of teams who can cope physically with the demands of european football and a domestic campaign - if we can't do the same then we should be looking at the reasons why - not holding our hands up and cursing the extra matches.

Point taken and I agree. But we don't have the budget of the teams above us. The other reason is the amount of games. Those are two reasons why. And it can be a catch 22 on how to break into the top 4. Once way is to play the kids in Europe. But no manager wants to do that.
 
Swansea (H) 1-0 W
Arsenal (A) 1-0 L
Cardiff (A) 0-1 W
West Ham (H) 0-3 L
Hull City (H) 1-0 W
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) 0-1 L
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D
Liverpool (H) 0-5 L
Norwich (A) 1-0 L
 
Swansea (H) 1-0 W
Arsenal (A) 1-0 L
Cardiff (A) 0-1 W
West Ham (H) 0-3 L
Hull City (H) 1-0 W
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) 0-1 L
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D
Liverpool (H) 0-5 L
Norwich (A) 1-0 L

I'd say today and West Ham are the only ones that stand out as games we should have won. Losing to Saudi Sportswashing Machine had nothing to do with effort.
 
Swansea (H) 1-0 W
Arsenal (A) 1-0 L
Cardiff (A) 0-1 W
West Ham (H) 0-3 L
Hull City (H) 1-0 W
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) 0-1 L
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D
Liverpool (H) 0-5 L
Norwich (A) 1-0 L



I think we'd have got at least 6 more points from some of those games had we not been playing 3 days prior. Its not just the game time. Its the management's focus and preparation. The travel time and stress and colds you catch in airports etc.

Were the CL clubs not in the CL they'd be out ahead of the pack.
 
Of those games we have managed to win post EL we have only won by one goal and we've suffered our two biggest defeats of the season.
 
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Swansea (H) 1-0 W
Arsenal (A) 1-0 L
Cardiff (A) 0-1 W
West Ham (H) 0-3 L
Hull City (H) 1-0 W
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) 0-1 L
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D
Liverpool (H) 0-5 L
Norwich (A) 1-0 L


do you have the corresponding European ties for those fixtures Rossi?
 
Tbilisi (A)
Tbilisi (H)
Tromso (H)
Anzhi (A)
Sheriff (A)
Sheriff (H)
Tromso (A)
Anzhi (H)
Dnipro (A)
 
Winning the Europa League would save this season. I say go for it, but we will have to play a hell of a lot better than we did on Thursday night
 
Tbilisi (A)
Tbilisi (H)
Tromso (H)
Anzhi (A)
Sheriff (A)
Sheriff (H)
Tromso (A)
Anzhi (H)
Dnipro (A)

cheers.

Tbilisi (A)
Swansea (H) 1-0 W

Tbilisi (H)
Arsenal (A) 1-0 L

Tromso (H)
Cardiff (A) 0-1 W

Anzhi (A)
West Ham (H) 0-3 L

Sheriff (A)
Hull City (H) 1-0 W

Sheriff (H)
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) 0-1 L

Tromso (A)
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D

Anzhi (H)
Liverpool (H) 0-5 L

Dnipro (A)
Norwich (A) 1-0 L


would it be fair to discount the home European games? as we really shouldn't be using a midweek home fixture as an excuse under any circumstances.

excluding those that leaves :

Tbilisi (A)
Swansea (H) 1-0 W

Anzhi (A)
West Ham (H) 0-3 L

Sheriff (A)
Hull City (H) 1-0 W

Tromso (A)
Man Utd (H) 2-2 D

Dnipro (A)
Norwich (A) 1-0 L
 
Winning the Europa League would save this season. I say go for it, but we will have to play a hell of a lot better than we did on Thursday night

It would be sensational if we can win it. I can't see it, but we should give it everything. At the moment we're missing two things: an outstanding player/s to spark things from nothing, and two a cohesive experienced team unit that are greater than the sum of their parts. One of the two gives you a chance.

What we do have is...potential...lots of potentially good players who need to click into a team. Soldado, Eriksen, Ade, Paulinho and a bunch of others can all be blinding on their day. So anything is possible.

With the EL, it has to be black or white now. Give it everything or play the kids.
 
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would it be fair to discount the home European games? as we really shouldn't be using a midweek home fixture as an excuse under any circumstances.

Fair? It is the past, what actually happened. You can't change it. Three days after the European game, we played in the PL and won/ drew/ lost. No excuses just realities to ignore or admit to.
 
Yeah, I think we should just do a Chelsea under di Matteo.

**** the league, we can't win the title, we are 6 points off fourth with an awful goal difference but STILL in with a chance of Europa League as it's the only cup we're left in. Go all out for it.
 
Fair? It is the past, what actually happened. You can't change it. Three days after the European game, we played in the PL and won/ drew/ lost. No excuses just realities to ignore or admit to.


i thought the argument was traveling time/distance to and from european games. at least with that there's a discussion to be had - otherwise we're sitting here moaning about playing 2 games a week, which frankly is a ludicrous thing to use as an excuse


if we can't cope with the odd midweek home game in Europe we may as give up now.
 
i thought the argument was traveling time/distance to and from european games. at least with that there's a discussion to be had - otherwise we're sitting here moaning about playing 2 games a week, which frankly is a ludicrous thing to use as an excuse


if we can't cope with the odd midweek home game in Europe we may as give up now.

Given we spend more time on here reading and talking bolocks than we do watching Spurs play, I think its fair to say we'd all love 2 games a week. No one is moaning about that! We all agree - we would like to play two games a week and win both.

No one is moaning. When you look at the results post EL there is clearly a correlation. Then pool as a case study.

Energy levels
Niggles
Injuries
Management preparation
Mental Preparation
Physical preparation on the training pitch
Travel time and fatigue

...may all have some effect. Results suggest there is a consequence to our PL form from the EL. Had we picked up 6 or 8 more points this or last season we may have secured top 4. That is not an irrational statement is it?
 
We need at least fifth as it will show we have ambitions still to challenge. We need to finish as high as we can to attract the better players. Who would want to join a team that finishes 7th or 8th? We would be taking a step back
 
...may all have some effect. Results suggest there is a consequence to our PL form from the EL. Had we picked up 6 or 8 more points this or last season we may have secured top 4. That is not an irrational statement is it?


well this is what im trying to get to the bottom of - i don't think we can use home European games in the case study as it's no different from playing an extra league/domestic cup fixture midweek. if you wanted to use those as an indicator i think it would be fair to chuck in any time where we have played 2 games a week over the course of the season so we have a wider set of fixtures to get a reading from. (what's the difference between a home Euro cup game than any other at the end of the day?)


so for me im more interested in looking at the away European games and the subsequent league results.
 
Yeah, I think we should just do a Chelsea under di Matteo.

**** the league, we can't win the title, we are 6 points off fourth with an awful goal difference but STILL in with a chance of Europa League as it's the only cup we're left in. Go all out for it.

This
 
well this is what im trying to get to the bottom of - i don't think we can use home European games in the case study as it's no different from playing an extra league/domestic cup fixture midweek. if you wanted to use those as an indicator i think it would be fair to chuck in any time where we have played 2 games a week over the course of the season so we have a wider set of fixtures to get a reading from. (what's the difference between a home Euro cup game than any other at the end of the day?)


so for me im more interested in looking at the away European games and the subsequent league results.

Isn't domestic fixture congestion a fairly common explanation for poor results? Can't remember seeing numbers on it, but to me a Thursday-Sunday or Wednesday-Saturday fixture couldn't possibly be beneficial and I can think of several reasons why it could make results worse.

I do remember seeing numbers showing fairly convincingly that the "European hangover" effect is a reality, that included home and away games iirc.
 
Isn't domestic fixture congestion a fairly common explanation for poor results? Can't remember seeing numbers on it, but to me a Thursday-Sunday or Wednesday-Saturday fixture couldn't possibly be beneficial and I can think of several reasons why it could make results worse.

I do remember seeing numbers showing fairly convincingly that the "European hangover" effect is a reality, that included home and away games iirc.

there probably is and im not really trying to deny that it has an effect - im just arguing the answer isn't to give up on the extra games - it's to get better at coping with them.
 
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