Feeling very 'flat' for the new season

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

There are two obvious solutions. Either pay more or go for lesser targets. Paying more seems to be out of the question. Problem is finding these cheaper players without alerting other clubs.

Three solutions.

Your 1 and 2, then

3) Wait until time pressure is paramount and try to force through a higher level player at lower level prices

 

[marcospur2]

Agree that 3 is an option. But if that fails then cue dodgy loan deals and woefully inadequate solutions.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I would hope if plan A is 3 then there is at least contingency in place should it not work out.

Which of course will not become apparent until A has failed

Which of course not be until late Thursday/early Friday

Squeeky bum time

 

[Jordinho]

As soon as there's interest in a player somewhere, from us or anyone else, they seem to immediately run to the media and suddenly want ridiculous money. There's is much less movement in the market these days compared to only a few years ago. More clubs have money and no pressing need to sell their players.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Overall I think this was a very incisive and thoughtful post, but I have issues with the bits i;ve bolded which i comment on below in order:

- Did not Ramos over a course of half a season improve on how Jol started that 2007-08 season? Unless AVB came in last season how can their (i.e. Harry and AVB's) PPG be compared than in over at least one season and perhaps Harry's averaged over time? TBH, given our new challenges this year (Modric going, Chelsea and Arsenal's spending) you could argue that any new manager be given more initial slack.
- How do we know that Jol was blameless in the disaterours start to the 2007-08 season? How do we know that the signes made in the summerm of 2007 were not actually ghe ones he wanted and then not quite the correct ones? When should Ramos have been replaced? Before the CC final? After the 5-1 win against Arsenal? Our first trophy in nearly a decade surely rightfully bought him time?
- Are you sure? Media influence will surely mean that most fans will back his sacking, especially the section of the media that is/was close to Redknapp. The media in this country will likely be one of AVB big obstacles in the Spurs job, at least initially
- Sorry this is plain wrong and unfair, imo. Ok so he plays a player out of position, Does that make him a plonker?? Does a plonker win a cup against sides like Arsenal and Chelsea? Ok some will point to Arsenal having a ‘second string’ side but actually that was a good side we played and totally humiliated. In fact it could be argued that most of the PL have watched that Ramos’ demolition of Wenger and followed his blueprint of counter-attacking them. Ramos may not have been suited to us in the long term (again a victim of our summer transfer dealings) but he was NOT a plonker! See our 5-1 collapse against Chelsea and our 5-2 collapse against Arsenal and perhaps that could be called plonker-like (not that Harry was a plonker, btw, but you get my drift)..
- I think this may be the case, but obviously injuries and other factors will likely play a part in any judgements
- Know in the first month? Hmmmm, not sure this would be fair or even correct; even by your own comments in the first month Ramos already looked like a plonker? Really?? I don't remember us having any stinkers in the first month...
- In terms of ‘finishing the job’ in big cup games against teams we often played well against but lost (I,e, Chelsea and Arsenal) Ramos WAS superior to Jol.
- TBF, most of those who did criticise Harry were comparing him to the likes of Mourinho, Wenger and SAF, even if those managers weren’t always named specifically in the discussions their methods were certainly referenced as they often form the PL/European benchmarks we aspire to as a club

Joey was right to call Ramos a plonker. What other manager would rest their best centre back in league games so he could play him in Europe and protect his precious UEFA cup record despite being bottom of the league?

Our league form under Ramos for the 07/08 and 08/09 season was pathetic!

He deserves credit for getting the tactics spot on against the scum in the 5-1 win. But the league is still the most effective method to judge how good a team/manager is, hence why I don't rate Di Matteo much despite fluking his way to 2 trophies.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Oh here we go with the Harry 'as good as it gets' myopia...

I think we have to get some things straight about where we were at the end of last season before we talk about AVB.
Harry in his 3 and a half years with us took us to a level we haven’t seen (winning away in the San siro!) and also had us often playing some sublime football, whilst getting the PL basics and bread-and-butter right (see our very solid away record and hime banishing our commonly soft underbelly, again especially away from home.)
I look back over Harry’s tenure and I have some very fond memories, for which I will always be grateful to him for.

However, at the end of the last season to me it was clear his time was up and I think it was the right decision to let him go. For the following reasons:

Results:
Whether any extremely pro-Harry posters want to admit or not, last season was, ultimately, a BIG disappointment in terms of us missing out on 3rd place and then being edged out altogether from CL by Chelsea’s freak CL win. There were some things that we couldn’t control: Arsenal’s resurgence, Chelsea’s luck. But frankly, being 10 points clear of 4th in mid-February meant that we would have only had ourselves to blame had we not finished 3rd. That blame goes ultimately to the manager, who was not able to get us to win two games on the trot between mid-january and mid-april.
That is a woeful record whichever way you look at it. And our transfer policy this summer, which people are understandably frustrated about, would likely have been much easier if we could dangle instant CL footy over our rivals such as Arsenal or Chelsea. Think about that before you slag Levy off: 3rd place equals easy option for the likes of Hazard and then further recruits who would want to play with Hazard etc.

Squad use vs squad sales/wages:
As I’ve often said, Harry’s use of our first 14 pr so players was very good, however, we did start to have a big squad and due to the fact we no longer had a reserve league, there were many parts of the squad that become rusty, wasted, unfit or all three. Harry showed that he did NOT have the knowhow/skill/desire/whatever to utilise our squad more than he did. Often a player not in the favoured first 14 would not be given many chances to play (fine, as we had a winning formula AND we were winning!) but then when needed due to injury/suspension etc would be VERY ring-rusty and would not have other opportunities to gain the correct levels of fitness, sharpness, confidence etc to really make an impact on the first team when required. This is clearly part of what happened to the likes of Krancjar, Corluka, Pienaar, Bassong etc. On the flip side, when one of the firt-teamers got an injury, then all of a sudden we turned into mush (think when the likes of Bale, Lennon or Ade were not available) and hence whenever any of those players were injured they’d often be rushed back partly because there was not much of a plan B and/or their squad replacements were so rusty anyway as previously mentioned.
We are not a club that can afford to have players such as Pienaar, Corluka, Krancjar, Bentley, Bassong etc be on the wage bill but barely used. That situation had to change. Hand on heart did you REALLY think Harry would have been able to get better at this side of things? Do you think we would have been able to attract more players to challenge for the top 4 AND continue as we were with the underusing of our squad (some of those players HE bought btw)? Again, something had to give.
Two straight seasons with end-of-season meltdowns
You had to give Harry credit for the way he got us up there to third after our two early losses against the mancs, but then you have to then give him the criticism for the meltdown in the last 12 games or so – which happened the previous year as well. You have to ask, why was this happening YET AGAIN? Nobody can argue about fatigue, too many games etc (in fact, you couldn’t really argue it when it happened in 2010-11 as we had A LOT of time between the PL and CL games). Could we REALLY afford for that thing to happen yet again, what with Chelski and Arsenal knowing they had to strengthen and try to edge away from us again?

Transfer dealings:
This was always going to be the time when we would likely have to replace at least one of our important players, e.g. Modric. Unless we have the spending power of the mancs, Chelski or even Arsenal this was always going to be very very delicate. It needs a load of money spent on transfer fees/wages or perhaps careful scouting. I’m not having a dig a Harry here but do you honestly think that without CL footy Harry would have been able to pull this off with those constraints? If so, please give evidence, because I can only go by the types of players he often boasted about wanting to sign (Phil Neville, David Beckham etc) which leads me to believe Harry would NOT have been able to do this adequately (see also our continuous striker issues under him).

Player development:
Perhaps in line with the point above about our end-of-season meltdowns, how many players would probably say that Harry developed their game to go to another level? Perhaps Bale maybe? Kaboul? I think Harry is very good at getting the players to play instinctively and to do what comes naturally, but it was clear that when there was a need for an emphasis on team systems, shape and drilling the players on new formations, tactics etc Harry was not so good at developing players in this regard. Hence why I think our two end-of-season collapses happened as once the instinctive play patterns of our players were nullified they looked clueless as to what to do next (e.g. Everton away, QPR away, when often the opposition let us have the ball as we didn’t look like scoring with it). Again, I think in our situation we needed to be able to call upon this kind of resource to compete with our top 4 rivals who all have more money, better players, experience etc to call upon when competing with us for those top 4 spots. Arsenal compete with the others mostly because they have systems of player development throughout the club that counteract their financial lack of might…though that is waning imho…

Harry’s court case and then Harry’s England ‘issue’ (basically going AWOL):
It’s easy to forget how silly Harry’s evidence made him look in public (not being able to write better than a two-year old, not being able to fill in a team sheet). Do you think the best players would really want to join a club whose manager says things like that? Either it makes him look stupid or VERY crooked.
Also, he fact is when the England vacancy appeared our form hit the skids, even worse than the year before; this was partly to do with the England speculation. What did it say that Harry couldn’t see that him concentrating on Spurs was a win-win situation for him? Funny how he said that ‘it doesn’t bother the players, they just play’ but then later said that ‘if the players don’t know that the manager has security in his job, then they’ll let it get to them’.
Come on! How was he ever going to be kept in the job by the board with those kind of comments? I think he knew his time was up and was just concentrating on getting his compensation.

So all in all it was the right time for Harry to go this summer; those pining for him right now seem to have short memories, and whilst AVB is still to be proven as the correct successor, you can see why Levy and the board replaced Harry with him as he would like have certain traits that Harry lacked which might be more important in taking us forward at this stage:

- Keys ideas about formations and systems – which HAVE brought results in the past
- A methodology which would more likely involve utilising a larger part of the SQUAD
- A ‘name’ likely to attract some of the better players across Europe etc, when competing with our more moneyed top 4 rivals
- Contacts across Europe and a more likely ability to attract good but less known talent outside of the big leagues
- A likelihood of developing young players with plans for them in years to come

I for one am NOT feeling flat for this season, and if I did it wouldn’t be because I want my new manager sacked after two not outstanding but promising performances, it would be because we are NOT in the CL even though we really should have been and will likely struggle to again due to Chelsea and Arsenal strengthening to make sure we don't get that golden chance again for a while.

Time will tell if AVB is the answer, but for me, it will be fun finding out.

COYS

Results: On the whole, I don't know how anyone can argue with 4th, 5th and 4th but I completely agree that our capitulation last season was unnacceptable. He improved our away record, that can't be argued. We won at grounds we hadn't won at previously in over a decade! Our overall record against the top sides improved dramatically, never lost at home to Chelsea, beat Liverpool regularly and beat Arsenal a few times. The only blemish is our inability still to beat Man United.

Squad use: You won't see me defending him for releasing the likes of Corluka on loan, couldn't understand at the time and I still don't now! The collapses are also unnacceptable.

Transfer dealings: He wasn't backed at all by Levy during the last two seasons. We spent £5m last season, QPR spend more than us these days! I honestly think he would have wanted to go after better players if he actually was given the money to spend. It's clear him and Levy didn't see eye to eye on what typeof players to go for, Levy likes younger players with a big sell on value whereas Redknapp opted for veterans. The ironic thing is, they were both right, you need a mix of the two. It shouldn't be a case of either or. Getting winners like Gallas and VDV was vital.

Player development: Defoe, Bale, Lennon, Kaboul, Ekotto, and Huddlestone all flourished under Redknapp and each player had their best season's under him IMO.

Harry's trial: It was embarrassing for everybody associated with the club, but Levy knew full well before he went for him that all the details of the trial would come out and by scrutinised in the public domain. Do you really think players care that much that Redknapp said that he didn't even know how to send text messages. Do you believe that would stop them coming to the club? Players care about money and playing in the Champions League.

I didn't like the way he handled the England job issue, but it's clear he wanted the job. If he had said I'm committed to Spurs and then fudged off at the end of the season, our fans would by tinkled off and rightly so and would call him a liar.

I had my gripes with Redknapp too btw:

Our set pieces were a joke and it was obvious that we didn't practice them enough, if at all.
We were too negative in certain away games when we should have always played to our strengths, which is attacking.
Playing players out of position.
His after match interviews when he continually said that we battered teams despite barely testing the keeper.

But all in all, I still think it was a rash decision to sack him despite his faults as the results of the club were excellent when he was at the helm and he raised the profile of the club to the point where players like VDV would want to come to us.

I actually like AVB and goes without saying I want him to succeed, but right now, my view won't change that it is a massive gamble to replace our most successful manager in the last 15 years with a coach who is unproven in the premier league and given his inexperience, it cannot be determined at this moment in time that he is an upgrade on Harry.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Its a brilliant post as it supports your view that HR should have been sacked, not really too much to do with the OPs malaise, which is shared by many, because we support a club who just sacked a manager who achieved the highest league points per game of any previous managers we've had, and hired a one hit wonder, who failed at a club with the financial resources of a multi billionaire at their disposal.

Its hardly a response to Joeys post - its just a party political speech.

So true. I feel sorry for the fans who did nothing but moan, bitch and whine over the last three years about our Manager not being good enough and that he should be replaced to get us to the next step. These "fans" don't seem to realise it was a mini-golden modern era for us and that there is a very real chance that it won't be repeated for a good few years to come. This is also why I feel it's unfair to pressure AVB. He almost certainly won't match recent achievements and some of us need to realise this sooner rather than later or we'll be in for another miserable period of a manager's tenure.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Its a brilliant post as it supports your view that HR should have been sacked, not really too much to do with the OPs malaise, which is shared by many, because we support a club who just sacked a manager who achieved the highest league points per game of any previous managers we've had, and hired a one hit wonder, who failed at a club with the financial resources of a multi billionaire at their disposal.

Its hardly a response to Joeys post - its just a party political speech.

Perhaps. Personally, I'd say we've just sacked a manager who left us hanging when we did offer him a new contract, then demanded a new one when the side collapsed and the England job went away. What reason did he provide for wanting a new one? Because apparently the players would be unsettled knowing the manager only had a little time left on his contract. A few months prior, however, he'd rubbished those very same 'unsettled players' suggestions when the FA were in their consideration process, saying something along the lines of 'the players don't care, managers come and go, it's no issue to them.'

We've sacked a manager who turned down Luis Suarez because he felt he couldn't play up front on his own. We've sacked a manager who was criticized by a number of our formerly fringe players for freezing them out, and was criticized recently by our goalkeeping coach for not rotating enough. We've sacked a manager who....

Sigh. It's a divisive subject, and one I'm trying to stay away from, with little success. Let's leave it at that. I believe glorygloryeze's post answered many of joey's assertions, and thus believe it deserves to be commended for its incisiveness. You don't, that's fine. And indeed, that's that.

 

[milo]

We've sacked a manager who turned down Luis Suarez because he felt he couldn't play up front on his own. We've sacked a manager who was criticized by a number of our formerly fringe players for freezing them out, and was criticized recently by our goalkeeping coach for not rotating enough.

I think that he was probably right about Suarez and I certainly cannot see him and VdV working in the same team which was the other reason he gave. Redknapp was criticised by remarkably few fringe players who left the club, no one wants to be out of the first team but one of the characteristics of (at least the first two seasons) was that fringe players came in and took their chances. What were the Parks' quotes? I remember something about this but cannot remember the full quote or context.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think that he was probably right about Suarez and I certainly cannot see him and VdV working in the same team which was the other reason he gave. Redknapp was criticised by remarkably few fringe players who left the club, no one wants to be out of the first team but one of the characteristics of (at least the first two seasons) was that fringe players came in and took their chances. What were the Parks' quotes? I remember something about this but cannot remember the full quote or context.

Like I said, trying to stay out of it. Considering how wide the area VdV covered, though (he ran himself into the ground shuttling from our penalty area to theirs game after game, after all), Suarez would in effect have been doing the same thing he's currently doing at Liverpool with Gerrard for support. As for Redknapp, I believe Niko criticized him, Gomes criticized him, Gio's still criticizing him, Bassong moaned about playing time to his national newspaper (or similar), Pav criticized him and Pienaar's said he felt lost just a few weeks after moving to the club. There were others, just can't remember them. Parks I believe was asked a question about our end of season slumps in a pre-season Q and A and replied that the first one was down to lack of fitness and tiredness, second one down to the England thing.

I'm clearly not doing a very good job staying out of it. Still, I will try again.

 

[billyiddo]

just for arguments sake -
___Adebayor
Bale____Suarez

would have been pretty fudging ace last season

 

[milo]

I'm trying to stay out of it too, DS. Redknapp is history and I'd rather look forwards than constantly rake over last season.

 

[milo]

just for arguments sake -
___Adebayor
Bale____Suarez

would have been pretty fudging ace last season

I do not think that it is better than

-----------Adebayor

Bale--------VdV--------Lennon

The performances those four put in in the first half of last season were excellent and we didn't have the midfielders last year to line up 4-3-3

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm trying to stay out of it too, DS. Redknapp is history and I'd rather look forwards than constantly rake over last season.

Agreed. Let the dead past bury its dead.

 

[mick cooper]

Perhaps. Personally, I'd say we've just sacked a manager who left us hanging when we did offer him a new contract, then demanded a new one when the side collapsed and the England job went away. What reason did he provide for wanting a new one? Because apparently the players would be unsettled knowing the manager only had a little time left on his contract. A few months prior, however, he'd rubbished those very same 'unsettled players' suggestions when the FA were in their consideration process, saying something along the lines of 'the players don't care, managers come and go, it's no issue to them.'

We've sacked a manager who turned down Luis Suarez because he felt he couldn't play up front on his own. We've sacked a manager who was criticized by a number of our formerly fringe players for freezing them out, and was criticized recently by our goalkeeping coach for not rotating enough. We've sacked a manager who....

Sigh. It's a divisive subject, and one I'm trying to stay away from, with little success. Let's leave it at that. I believe glorygloryeze's post answered many of joey's assertions, and thus believe it deserves to be commended for its incisiveness. You don't, that's fine. And indeed, that's that.

couldn't you fit any more speculation in?

go on, have a go

 

[billyiddo]

I do not think that it is better than

-----------Adebayor

Bale--------VdV--------Lennon

The performances those four put in in the first half of last season were excellent and we didn't have the midfielders last year to line up 4-3-3

yeah you got me there

still though, purely as a front 3 it looks good

 

[mick cooper]

I'm trying to stay out of it too, DS. Redknapp is history and I'd rather look forwards than constantly rake over last season.

people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it

one thing this great club of ours has a lot of previous in that respect

Which anyone who has been supporting the club longer than the last couple of seasons will know.

 

[DubaiSpur]

couldn't you fit any more speculation in?

go on, have a go

Don't want to. Like milo said, I'd prefer to look forward to the future. This subject is a divisive one, and I've realized it makes me instinctively want to disagree and angrily argue with posters who are otherwise thoughtful and considered, you included. Ergo, I'd prefer not to bring it up any more. I'd appeal to you, and the rest of this board, to do the same, but it's a lost cause, I guess, all things considered.

 

[Spursalot]

people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it

one thing this great club of ours has a lot of previous in that respect

Which anyone who has been supporting the club longer than the last couple of seasons will know.

True, but us (the fans) learning from history isn't going to make the club learn from it.

 

[milo]

people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it

one thing this great club of ours has a lot of previous in that respect

Which anyone who has been supporting the club longer than the last couple of seasons will know.

Thankfully for everyone who supports Spurs, I have bugger all to do with decisions at the club, so what I have or haven't learnt from last season is of little significance. I'm just bored of constant threads getting dragged into last seasons arguments or people slagging off our current manager through a misplaced loyalty to the last one.