Feeling very 'flat' for the new season

[BrainOfLevy]

That's what baffles me. Why when Levy learn? Yeah you might save a few million on a certain player if you leave it until the last day of the window, but if we finish 1 point behind 3rd/4th place and miss out on the Champions League and about £40m then in the long run, it's worth getting deals done early. Every game counts the same in the final standings.

I think Levy has analysed that very conundrum, and decided it is best to wait for the best deals. Reason being that he can quite rightly say that other teams won't have finished their business either, and also he can say that just because we haven't made all our signings, it doesn't mean we don't have good players that shouldn't be able to win games. Last season the Modric situation left us badly unprepared and we lost points that we may well have been able to get with a strong settled team, but also keeping him gave us the best chance of finishing above Chelsea - to that end, it worked.

I think we will be fine. I think we will have a good season. I think we will compete for the top 4 and be well in there. I think AVB does play a radical tactical system and therefore if he doesn't have the right players, there will be teething problems. But against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Brom there were encouraging signs. Against West Brom there were also worrying signs, but it's clear to see where they can be stopped.

I'm still really positive, and I think when we have completed our business, most people on here will be too. If we end up with a Pav/Campbell for Berbatov/Keane trade off scenario, then we will have failed miserably. If we leave it late making derisory bids for good players that will obviously get rejected then we will have failed miserably. But I think tomorrrow we should see a Modric announcement that will allow us to strengthen the positions we need to fill, and from there AVB will be set to get the team performing how we wants. I have to believe we have learnt from 2008.

 

[southstand1882]

I think any half-decent manager would have got us top 5 finishes with our squad.

I assume we'll be getting top 5 this season then

 

[africanspurs]

i like the way we say "a few million" ,......like its nothing.

feels great in a joking..funny..inconsiderate to the spender kind of way LOL

 

[COYS]

I've been having the exact same feelings as the OP recently. It just feels like all of my hopes and dreams were drained out of me during the Chelsea vs Bayern game, but after I've been to a few games I should be back on form again.

 

[Jurgen the German]

i like the way we say "a few million" ,......like its nothing.

feels great in a joking..funny..inconsiderate to the spender kind of way LOL

Hypothetical question mate, is better to pay £5m for the likes of Parker or pay £7m or £8m, get him in time for the start of the season so we don't have to play Krancjar and Livermore in midfield and finish with more points?

Do Manchester United or Chelsea leave the majority of their deals to the last day?

 

[Golfball]

I'm excited for the season, and I think once AVB gets his players, we will fly.

He plays a radical style of football, it's out there, it looks risky, and if it doesn't work it can look like a stupid attempt. But if it works, I think we can get results above and beyond what we would realistically expect.

Look at the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game. We go there, to a team that finished 5th last season, with an excellent attacking line up of Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa. And not once do they actually trouble us. They didn't get near our goal and create a clear cut chance. At the same time we hit the post twice. Imagine if we had a striker more suited to playing alone up top, a creative midfielder linking the play and a goalkeeper that doesn't like clearing it long? We would have been out of sight. At last season's 5th place!

Look at yesterday. So many times teams like to come to our ground and park the bus. But we were slicing them apart at will. Terrible finishing meant we didn't trouble Foster and get ahead when we should have done, but we were creating clear chances, in front of their goal with just the keeper to beat. We had a style and system of play and we looked like we knew what we were doing. Imagine if we had the striker we needed, and if we had someone in Lennon's position that could finish.

And the thing is, all of these positions to fill our possible. There are players there that should be in our range. We get them and we will have a great season. It's not going to be an easy league. Look at United, could have easily dropped points at home to Fulham yesterday, and that's with all their business finished. We complete our business and we will fly. I'm sure of it.

What happy pills are you taking ? I want some.

Bottom line.... we haven't been very good. We haven't started well, despite a great squad. There are some good things we do, of course there are with the squad we have, but we look pretty clueless in the final 3rd. Very worrying to have a manager who cant play creative football with this squad.

The good news? It's a new manager and can be given the benefit of doubt for a few early mistakes, providing we go on to be pretty good.

But for now, the honest assessment of the first two games is not very good. Meaningless possession against West Brom until they had to go for it - and then we were under the kosh (in fact they were starting to dominate a bit before they went behind). Was same against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, they seemed happy to let us knock it about without purpose.

I expect if AVB is the good manager some are saying, that in a couple of month these 2 games will all be forgotten and we'll just be putting it down to a new manager learning about his squad. But for now lets not act like we cant be honest on the underwhelming start.

 

[Golfball]

Agree with the OP and glad I'm not the only one.

Feel that we're badly under-prepared for the new season, like we needed another 3-4 games and friendlies.

Obviously doesnt need to be said but our shambolic approach to the transfer window doesnt help either. We're well stocked at the back but lack a creative CM, cover out side, cover up front and a decent GK. Even if we do get who we need by the 31st, you then hvae the international period when players disappear so the new arrivals wont be bedding in for a while.

I think AVB will do well but I cant see us finishing top 4 this season - just hope that hte fans and Levy remain behind him as the last thing we would need is another manager change. Cant wait til we have the new stadium sorted and the financial situation then a bit clearer

Like you did throughout Harrys time ? If HR couldn't get that luxury with a top 4 finish, then you are dreaming if you think AVB coming outside the top 4 wont result in a sacking. I actually agree with your statement, but its one you should have been making last season. And if you didnt do it last season, you dont really have a right to tell fans to do it this season.

 

[billyiddo]

Do Manchester United or Chelsea leave the majority of their deals to the last day?

can you spot the rather big difference between ourselves and those two clubs when it comes to transfers?

 

[AdamB]

Like you did throughout Harrys time ? If HR couldn't get that luxury with a top 4 finish, then you are dreaming if you think AVB coming outside the top 4 wont result in a sacking. I actually agree with your statement, but its one you should have been making last season. And if you didnt do it last season, you dont really have a right to tell fans to do it this season.

Calm down. I'm not 'telling' anyone to do anything

 

[DubaiSpur]

Like you did throughout Harrys time ? If HR couldn't get that luxury with a top 4 finish, then you are dreaming if you think AVB coming outside the top 4 wont result in a sacking. I actually agree with your statement, but its one you should have been making last season. And if you didnt do it last season, you dont really have a right to tell fans to do it this season.

AVB's got to have time. That was the whole point of appointing him. I'm hoping beyond hope our fans see that. He's won trophies,his teams have played scintillating football while doing so and he's proven in a couple of weeks that he has a long term plan for the side that doesn't involve telling them to just go out there and do their respective things.

But..he's also young, still learning from his Chelsea mistakes (and there were a few), and is trying to reshape a squad without the requisite funds to do so.
I'm certain that he'll achieve fantastic things, if given time. And, given his youth, he could be our manager for the next six, seven, maybe even ten years if things go right. I hope our fans see that. I also hope Levy does, else this entire appointment was a futile endeavour.

 

[Jurgen the German]

can you spot the rather big difference between ourselves and those two clubs when it comes to transfers?

Granted, but surely it's better to get deals done early. Just because they have more money than us and are bigger clubs doesn't mean we can't follow their example and get players in before the start of the season.

 

[africanspurs]

Hypothetical question mate, is better to pay £5m for the likes of Parker or pay £7m or £8m, get him in time for the start of the season so we don't have to play Krancjar and Livermore in midfield and finish with more points?

Do Manchester United or Chelsea leave the majority of their deals to the last day?

no no, i agree with you entirely..am just having one of those....moments. LOL

i'm like...come on levy..its only a few MILLION LOL

but i agree with you. you have to go that little bit extra, especially when that little bit extra is not a figure that is absurd. levy just doesnt like to do it. and i think AVB wont question him and AVB wont moan

 

[BrainOfLevy]

no no, i agree with you entirely..am just having one of those....moments. LOL

i'm like...come on levy..its only a few MILLION LOL

but i agree with you. you have to go that little bit extra, especially when that little bit extra is not a figure that is absurd. levy just doesnt like to do it. and i think AVB wont question him and AVB wont moan

Pay that little bit extra for say 3 of your targets in one summer and that's potentially 10 million more we've spent. That's another quality player. Accept Madrid's second offer? Why not, we'll get 6 million less but at least we get it done? Pay what Shakthar demand for Willian? Fine, it's only another 5 million. Etc etc.

We have to have a way of doing the deals. There are positives of doing the deals quickly, but it isn't as clear cut.

 

[billyiddo]

Granted, but surely it's better to get deals done early. Just because they have more money than us and are bigger clubs doesn't mean we can't follow their example and get players in before the start of the season.

obviously i agree that it is better to get deals done early, but unfortunately i don't think it's as easy as it sounds.

Im prepared to wait until September 1st before making sense of what has (or hasn't) happened this window - for example if Modric gets sold for a good price and then we see a flurry of 2/3 signings of decent quality shortly after then i would have sympathy for Levy and our situation and that he would have done a stand up job.

similarly to what BoL says above - 2/3 deals for players in and out done at their initial prices could equate to around a 20 mil swing - not the type of money we can afford to write off just to get things done early

 

[joey55]

AVB's got to have time. That was the whole point of appointing him. I'm hoping beyond hope our fans see that. He's won trophies,his teams have played scintillating football while doing so and he's proven in a couple of weeks that he has a long term plan for the side that doesn't involve telling them to just go out there and do their respective things.

But..he's also young, still learning from his Chelsea mistakes (and there were a few), and is trying to reshape a squad without the requisite funds to do so.
I'm certain that he'll achieve fantastic things, if given time. And, given his youth, he could be our manager for the next six, seven, maybe even ten years if things go right. I hope our fans see that. I also hope Levy does, else this entire appointment was a futile endeavour.

But isn't that just a typical fan argument that doesn't have much substance behind it? I want to make it very clear that I'm not opposed to AVB, as what has happened and happened and there is no going back. But I've never bought into the "time" argument, as I've seen little to no proof of it. It's one of those things (like many of the tactics based arguments) where I clash with the vast majority of fans on. I just can't understand why on so many subjects to do with football, theories become accepted, without much in the way of evidence.

In Premier League football I really can't think of many examples when a manager has started poorly and then gone on to take a club to new heights. It seems to me that the vast majority of successful appointments, set about showing they are going to have a big positive impact, pretty much straightaway. So I really don't understand where the "time" argument comes from. People often mention SAF as a manager that needed time, but forget his first 2 seasons were nothing but success, taking them from 21st to 11th and then finishing 2nd the following season. So he earned the right to be given time when things weren't going so well.

I definitely don't have a problem in giving a manager time if he is clearly showing that things will get better than before he arrived. But there is no point giving a manager time just for the sake of it and ignoring obvious warning signs that all isn't well. In my opinion, in the first 6 months if things aren't obviously on the up, then I'd cut my losses. It will be a hugely unpopular opinion, but at least it has some foundation. I feel much more comfortable using the history of the game as a barometer rather than blind faith.

The fact AVB has won trophies elsewhere means nothing. Again history has shown us this. And when he did win trophies, he again demonstrated that time really isn't needed.

Again, I stress this isn't anti AVB, but really about trying to get all our fans to see things more rationally. The worst thing we could do is see things start to slide and not look to prevent it as quickly as possible. Most fans think a manager must be allowed time to make changes, but I don't think Prem history supports that way of thinking in the slightest and usually allowing slow starting manager time, does more harm than good. If the whole point of his appointment is to give him time, then I feel it's a big mistake. Especially since he absolutely no history of building and developing a team. In fact it' would be pure insanity based on that point alone. He literally has never been at a club for more than one season!

I'm not saying if we aren't in the top 4 by Xmas sack AVB. But if we aren't slugging it out with the likes of Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, then a change should be made, as it's more likely that given time, we'll fall even further backwards, as the "time" argument just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What happy pills are you taking ? I want some.

Bottom line.... we haven't been very good. We haven't started well, despite a great squad. There are some good things we do, of course there are with the squad we have, but we look pretty clueless in the final 3rd. Very worrying to have a manager who cant play creative football with this squad.

The good news? It's a new manager and can be given the benefit of doubt for a few early mistakes, providing we go on to be pretty good.

But for now, the honest assessment of the first two games is not very good. Meaningless possession against West Brom until they had to go for it - and then we were under the kosh (in fact they were starting to dominate a bit before they went behind). Was same against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, they seemed happy to let us knock it about without purpose.

I expect if AVB is the good manager some are saying, that in a couple of month these 2 games will all be forgotten and we'll just be putting it down to a new manager learning about his squad. But for now lets not act like we cant be honest on the underwhelming start.

Give over.

First of all, we were good at Saudi Sportswashing Machine. We didn't look clueless. We were the better side. Against West Brom, we cut them apart at will in the first half and fell apart when chasing the game with an unbalanced squad. But whatever. I'm not gonna pretend WBA didn't come into it very well yesterday. But it doesn't mean the signs aren't there. It wasn't meaningless possession, are finishing was terrible from a number of very good positions. We got in at Saudi Sportswashing Machine a couple of times too and they never got anywhere near us.

And it doesn't mean there's no reason to be really confident. We have a good squad, but a new manager is always going to have a certain way of playing, particularly if he plays to a certain system and has a very clear idea of which players are needed for it. And if we haven't completed our business yet then there will be teething problems. But once we do, no reason why we can't do well.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

But isn't that just a typical fan argument that doesn't have much substance behind it? I want to make it very clear that I'm not opposed to AVB, as what has happened and happened and there is no going back. But I've never bought into the "time" argument, as I've seen little to no proof of it. It's one of those things (like many of the tactics based arguments) where I clash with the vast majority of fans on. I just can't understand why on so many subjects to do with football, theories become accepted, without much in the way of evidence.

In Premier League football I really can't think of many examples when a manager has started poorly and then gone on to take a club to new heights. It seems to me that the vast majority of successful appointments, set about showing they are going to have a big positive impact, pretty much straightaway. So I really don't understand where the "time" argument comes from. People often mention SAF as a manager that needed time, but forget his first 2 seasons were nothing but success, taking them from 21st to 11th and then finishing 2nd the following season. So he earned the right to be given time when things weren't going so well.

I definitely don't have a problem in giving a manager time if he is clearly showing that things will get better than before he arrived. But there is no point giving a manager time just for the sake of it and ignoring obvious warning signs that all isn't well. In my opinion, in the first 6 months if things aren't obviously on the up, then I'd cut my losses. It will be a hugely unpopular opinion, but at least it has some foundation. I feel much more comfortable using the history of the game as a barometer rather than blind faith.

The fact AVB has won trophies elsewhere means nothing. Again history has shown us this. And when he did win trophies, he again demonstrated that time really isn't needed.

Again, I stress this isn't anti AVB, but really about trying to get all our fans to see things more rationally. The worst thing we could do is see things start to slide and not look to prevent it as quickly as possible. Most fans think a manager must be allowed time to make changes, but I don't think Prem history supports that way of thinking in the slightest and usually allowing slow starting manager time, does more harm than good. If the whole point of his appointment is to give him time, then I feel it's a big mistake. Especially since he absolutely no history of building and developing a team. In fact it' would be pure insanity based on that point alone. He literally has never been at a club for more than one season!

I'm not saying if we aren't in the top 4 by Xmas sack AVB. But if we aren't slugging it out with the likes of Everton, Liverpool, Arsenal and Saudi Sportswashing Machine, then a change should be made, as it's more likely that given time, we'll fall even further backwards, as the "time" argument just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I think there's plenty of examples in the PL of managers starting slowly and doing better, there's also examples of managers starting off well and falling away. Certainly when we haven't completed our business yet I can definitely see reasons to be optimistic once AVB has done.

 

[marcospur2]

Thing is how 'slowly' is acceptable? There was always going to be a transition once Levy made the decision to sack Harry Redknapp, but no one expected the transition would be this lacking in progress. I am not blaming AVB, but if we don't get the tools he needs then he either needs to be less rigid in his approach, or we will be writing off this season in terms of finishing in the top 4. Relative to our rivals I think we have more glaring weaknesses, and yet I expect them to add strength over the next week as well as us.

 

[joey55]

I think there's plenty of examples in the PL of managers starting slowly and doing better, there's also examples of managers starting off well and falling away. Certainly when we haven't completed our business yet I can definitely see reasons to be optimistic once AVB has done.

There could be plenty of reasons to be optimistic over the next week. But what I'm saying is that no manager should simply be given time. He has to demonstrate that he's worth persevering with. When I look at all the top Prem mangers over the years that is exactly what they've done. I'm not saying he has 6 months to get us into 3rd place or that is it. But at the same time, he has no free ride. He has to clearly demonstrate he knows what he is doing and to do this must at least have us in the mix for a 4th-7th spot. I think that is a very reasonable way of looking at things and much better than just allowing him time to get things right, as it's just as likely or even more so, that we'd be giving him time to get things even more wrong.

 

[Robspur12]

AVB's got to have time. That was the whole point of appointing him. I'm hoping beyond hope our fans see that. He's won trophies,his teams have played scintillating football while doing so and he's proven in a couple of weeks that he has a long term plan for the side that doesn't involve telling them to just go out there and do their respective things.

But..he's also young, still learning from his Chelsea mistakes (and there were a few), and is trying to reshape a squad without the requisite funds to do so.
I'm certain that he'll achieve fantastic things, if given time. And, given his youth, he could be our manager for the next six, seven, maybe even ten years if things go right. I hope our fans see that. I also hope Levy does, else this entire appointment was a futile endeavour.

You see I have a problem with that statement - we have a pretty good squad now, just lacking the creativity in the middle. But even lacking this creativity problem we don't look solid. We are not going out to buy more defenders or more holding midfielders. Why can't we hold on to a lead or a draw? It always looked like we would concede yesterday. If AVB doesn't have the players to play his system, why does he not play a system to suit his players until he gets the right players in? This is essentially my worry with him.