Fair play Daniel Levy

[Modric THFC]

I don't really believe in 'blame' at this level, when both people are extremely qualified and would be justified in their opinions either way, and when we don't know all the facts. I'm not saying I 'blame' AVB, and I'm not really saying I 'blame' Levy, other than I would have liked Levy to realise what I thought he had in AVB.

I said many times in AVBs case, as in Harry's case, if the club no longer backs him, it should be the end of the line. I've also said I like the cut of Sherwood's jib, his confidence in his own ability and the respect he has earned for how our youth teams have performed. But I don't particularly like the idea that AVB is some deeply flawed character that was out of his depth, it does him a disservice. And I just don't believe in 'blame' as if anything at this level and with such a myriad of factors is so easily attributable to black and white concepts such as that.

What do you make the stories that AVB agreed to certain things when he was applying for the job and then went the complete other way once he was in the job.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896...ts-that-cost-villas-boas-his-job-as-tottenham

Do you not think AVB is hugely at fault for that?

 

[Sandman]

I'm sorry but some people are in Dreamland if they think Hoddle will ask how high when we say jump, especially when considering the history between him and Levy. People are talking as if he is sitting there waiting and the whole process is as easy as going down to Waitrose on a Sunday morning. I think Hoddle will quite rightly demand a bit more respect than that this time around and it isnt a given he will be happy as a caretaker, it is far from a done deal for anybody to come here, and it isn't a case of picking a manager off a shelf as a lot of people seem to think.

Why are some people on here so argumentative. He has been out of the game for a while so he has to prove himself to us. I dont think that is unjustified. He has already come out and said he would help and would love to come back if asked. So in one respect he is sitting and waiting to help. I dont think its easy to pick up a manager hence why I think its best for us to have an interim coach and spend until next summer evaluating our best options.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What do you make the stories that AVB agreed to certain things when he was applying for the job and then went the complete other way once he was in the job.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896...ts-that-cost-villas-boas-his-job-as-tottenham

Do you not think AVB is hugely at fault for that?

I think that's precisely why he left, and at the end of the day both club and manager have to be working how they are comfortable, otherwise it's best they part ways.

I just think the trust between club and head coach was not there enough. For example when the contract is signed and AVB is hired, they can say to each other: 'the target is top 4, we want you to make good use of the club's youth academy and we want you to develop the undervalued potential that we sign'.

AVB then thinks 'ok, no problem'. But to both parties, achieving top 4, using the youth and developing potential can all mean different things. He can point to his use of Caulker and say he was happy to use a youth product. He can point to Bale and show that he helped a player achieve their massive potential. But if the club wants top 4 and he says that in his opinion he would prefer fewer signings but top quality, rather than more signings but lesser quality, then there is a disparity.

So they can agree on objectives, but in practice they can take it to mean different things. I don't blame AVB for it, and I don't blame Levy and the board for having their own point of view. I blame them for not aligning their own objectives with reality. I imagine how it went down is AVB says 'get me Hulk, Soldado and Willian and we will make a top 4 challenge'. The club says 'We can't get you Hulk, Willian has gone to Chelsea, but we can get you Eriksen, Chadli and Lamela'. AVB probably will have said 'fine, I will work with them, I will do my best but they are not as proven quality at the top level and may take longer to settle.' But expectations weren't realigned, they still expected top 4 as a minimum this year and thought that because they let 100M go out the door this summer they were justified in that. Again, I think it's differences of opinion that lead to a parting of the ways needing to be required. I don't blame AVB, because agreeing upon objectives and giving him the backing to make it happen are 2 different things.

AVB strikes me as someone that prefers a smaller squad of quality rather than a bigger squad where quality is in thinner supply. He didn't rotate much at Porto and I think his methods are designed to allow a smaller group of players the chance to perform consistently over a season. (Kind of like Ramos, which is why he didn't even register something like 5 good players into the squad in 2008). When he's given a bigger squad, his methods and his reason for being highly rated (to make a quality squad perform effectively) are negated because he is juggling more players that don't need to play in the way he prefers because more rotation is possible.

So I think he would have rather money was spent on proven top quality rather than the majority on potential. When that didn't happen for him he knew that he probably shouldn't be here anymore, and that's where I think stories that he was glad it was over come from. He knew he wasn't backed by the club and they didn't really trust him.

 

[Pirate55]

I think that's precisely why he left, and at the end of the day both club and manager have to be working how they are comfortable, otherwise it's best they part ways.

I just think the trust between club and head coach was not there enough. For example when the contract is signed and AVB is hired, they can say to each other: 'the target is top 4, we want you to make good use of the club's youth academy and we want you to develop the undervalued potential that we sign'.

AVB then thinks 'ok, no problem'. But to both parties, achieving top 4, using the youth and developing potential can all mean different things. He can point to his use of Caulker and say he was happy to use a youth product. He can point to Bale and show that he helped a player achieve their massive potential. But if the club wants top 4 and he says that in his opinion he would prefer fewer signings but top quality, rather than more signings but lesser quality, then there is a disparity.

So they can agree on objectives, but in practice they can take it to mean different things. I don't blame AVB for it, and I don't blame Levy and the board for having their own point of view. I blame them for not aligning their own objectives with reality. I imagine how it went down is AVB says 'get me Hulk, Soldado and Willian and we will make a top 4 challenge'. The club says 'We can't get you Hulk, Willian has gone to Chelsea, but we can get you Eriksen, Chadli and Lamela'. AVB probably will have said 'fine, I will work with them, I will do my best but they are not as proven quality at the top level and may take longer to settle.' But expectations weren't realigned, they still expected top 4 as a minimum this year and thought that because they let 100M go out the door this summer they were justified in that. Again, I think it's differences of opinion that lead to a parting of the ways needing to be required. I don't blame AVB, because agreeing upon objectives and giving him the backing to make it happen are 2 different things.

AVB strikes me as someone that prefers a smaller squad of quality rather than a bigger squad where quality is in thinner supply. He didn't rotate much at Porto and I think his methods are designed to allow a smaller group of players the chance to perform consistently over a season. (Kind of like Ramos, which is why he didn't even register something like 5 good players into the squad in 2008). When he's given a bigger squad, his methods and his reason for being highly rated (to make a quality squad perform effectively) are negated because he is juggling more players that don't need to play in the way he prefers because more rotation is possible.

So I think he would have rather money was spent on proven top quality rather than the majority on potential. When that didn't happen for him he knew that he probably shouldn't be here anymore, and that's where I think stories that he was glad it was over come from. He knew he wasn't backed by the club and they didn't really trust him.

But any fool can say get me Messi, Ronaldo and Bale and I will get you top four. A top coach gets the best out of what he has got. He could and should have identified other less expensive targets, after all he is supposed to be a fantastic scout!

AVB had a top quality squad of top international players. Man for man probably in the top four in the country. He FAILED dismally in getting them to play as a team. He is way behind coaches like Wenger, Rodgers, Martinez etc. He left us looking like a shambles with no coherent style of play and a dearth of goals.

He had to go. NWND was right.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

But any fool can say get me Messi, Ronaldo and Bale and I will get you top four. A top coach gets the best out of what he has got. He could and should have identified other less expensive targets, after all he is supposed to be a fantastic scout!

AVB had a top quality squad of top international players. Man for man probably in the top four in the country. He FAILED dismally in getting them to play as a team. He is way behind coaches like Wenger, Rodgers, Martinez etc. He left us looking like a shambles with no coherent style of play and a dearth of goals.

He had to go. NWND was right.

I'm just trying to make the point that he would be happier with using the same money we had to buy 2 or 3 top quality players (and then rely on youth players to pad out the squad) rather than 7 more average ones. He did do well with what he was given - record points having not got Moutinho but given Dempsey.

This season of course it wasn't going perfectly, but to say that he had to go is like saying Moyes had to go, there's no reason why we couldn't have turned it round in the second half of the season. As I keep saying, we weren't on a 6 game losing streak, we were winning games and playing well in between some hammerings. I think his style, or the approach of coaches in that mould, is such that if it works, it looks good and if we lose it's only narrowly, but if it isn't working and clicking the plan we worked on all week goes out the window and we get hammered. But I think it was likely we would have gotten more consistency in the second half of the season if he was backed.

 

[THFC]

Why are some people on here so argumentative. He has been out of the game for a while so he has to prove himself to us. I dont think that is unjustified. He has already come out and said he would help and would love to come back if asked. So in one respect he is sitting and waiting to help. I dont think its easy to pick up a manager hence why I think its best for us to have an interim coach and spend until next summer evaluating our best options.

What you are seeing is his media chums backing him. I doubt Hoddle will be happy being likened to getting f****d and thrown to the kerb like a dog at the end of the season, because we can dictate what we want.

 

[unit kaboom]

I'm just trying to make the point that he would be happier with using the same money we had to buy 2 or 3 top quality players (and then rely on youth players to pad out the squad) rather than 7 more average ones. He did do well with what he was given - record points having not got Moutinho but given Dempsey.

This season of course it wasn't going perfectly, but to say that he had to go is like saying Moyes had to go, there's no reason why we couldn't have turned it round in the second half of the season. As I keep saying, we weren't on a 6 game losing streak, we were winning games and playing well in between some hammerings. I think his style, or the approach of coaches in that mould, is such that if it works, it looks good and if we lose it's only narrowly, but if it isn't working and clicking the plan we worked on all week goes out the window and we get hammered. But I think it was likely we would have gotten more consistency in the second half of the season if he was backed.

Mate without meaning to be rude, every time I come on here and look at any thread it seems to be you saying the same thing over and over. I think we all understand now that you had unwavering support for AVB. That's fine and yes possibly he may of turned it round but quite frankly you know no more then the rest of us, so constant guessing at what you feel may or may not of happened is getting slightly tedious. AVB may not of got his preferred targets but he still was given 7 internationals and 3 record signings, these are not some youth potential players. We had a vastly superior squad to the majority of the league yet have taken 3 brutal hammerings, I'm afraid there is no getting away from that.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate without meaning to be rude, every time I come on here and look at any thread it seems to be you saying the same thing over and over. I think we all understand now that you had unwavering support for AVB. That's fine and yes possibly he may of turned it round but quite frankly you know no more then the rest of us, so constant guessing at what you feel may or may not of happened is getting slightly tedious. AVB may not of got his preferred targets but he still was given 7 internationals and 3 record signings, these are not some youth potential players. We had a vastly superior squad to the majority of the league yet have taken 3 brutal hammerings, I'm afraid there is no getting away from that.

I was responding to someone who specifically asked me for my thoughts...

To be honest as long as I read something like 'AVB just wasn't a good coach, we should face up to that' it does him a disservice. I'll defend him, especially if I've been asked for my thoughts. I do see though that it will get repetitive, I don't particularly wanting to keep entering into the same debate and I won't be doing so eventually!

 

[unit kaboom]

I was responding to someone who specifically asked me for my thoughts...

To be honest as long as I read something like 'AVB just wasn't a good coach, we should face up to that' it does him a disservice. I'll defend him, especially if I've been asked for my thoughts. I do see though that it will get repetitive, I don't particularly wanting to keep entering into the same debate and I won't be doing so eventually!

Time will tell weather AVB is any good, at this moment he has two very big negatives against him. I wish him all the best, I warmed to the guy but he is now in the past and is a major part in our very promising season currently looking like ****.

 

[Hully]

Bet Levy is smiling now.

 

[Sandman]

What you are seeing is his media chums backing him. I doubt Hoddle will be happy being likened to getting f****d and thrown to the kerb like a dog at the end of the season, because we can dictate what we want.

So Hoddle Confirmed yesterday that he would take the job and on a temporary basis to prove his qualities and to help the club he loves on TV yesterday. So what do you say to that eh???

 

[Raziel]

Time to change the title of this thread.

Fired AVB to hire Tim, really? for the first time I'm really questioning Levy's ability to take this club forward.

Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB can all be rationally explained as reasonably logical decisions at the time, Tim is a ****ing punt, you don't take a punt with a 200M business. Levy has actually put his own credentials on the line here, for the first time, Joe and the board have a right to really say "what the **** were you thinking" when (not if) this goes tits up.

 

[djp82]

Time to change the title of this thread.

Fired AVB to hire Tim, really? for the first time I'm really questioning Levy's ability to take this club forward.

Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB can all be rationally explained as reasonably logical decisions at the time, Tim is a ****ing punt, you don't take a punt with a 200M business. Levy has actually put his own credentials on the line here, for the first time, Joe and the board have a right to really say "what the **** were you thinking" when (not if) this goes tits up.

I agree think it's just till the summer as there were no decent managers to take charge. Massive punt tho could very well bite Mr Levy very hard !

 

[Daisuk]

Time to change the title of this thread.

Fired AVB to hire Tim, really? for the first time I'm really questioning Levy's ability to take this club forward.

Jol, Ramos, Harry, AVB can all be rationally explained as reasonably logical decisions at the time, Tim is a ****ing punt, you don't take a punt with a 200M business. Levy has actually put his own credentials on the line here, for the first time, Joe and the board have a right to really say "what the **** were you thinking" when (not if) this goes tits up.

Give the man a chance. He knows the club, he knows the players. How often do you see Barcelona appointing a "proven manager", for instance? It's a gamble, yes, but it's not written in stone that it will "go tits up".

 

[Raziel]

Give the man a chance. He knows the club, he knows the players. How often do you see Barcelona appointing a "proven manager", for instance? It's a gamble, yes, but it's not written in stone that it will "go tits up".

No offense mate, Barcelona are an established club with great players in a **** league (outside of top 4), a really bad year for them would be second place and a CL 1/4 final.

We need to punch above our weight, we need better results than our squad should get, if you really think a "lets give the guy a try" manager can do that, I think's its naïve and a bad business decision.

Add to that, he has said, he doesn't know the players, he has not worked with 1st team.

I'm willing to bet anyone, tim won't be here this time next year, which will equal a multi million dollar **** up on the clubs part.

 

[THFC]

So Hoddle Confirmed yesterday that he would take the job and on a temporary basis to prove his qualities and to help the club he loves on TV yesterday. So what do you say to that eh???

I say that we don't know the full story

 

[Viper]

Vincent Tan > Daniel Levy

 

[Pirate55]

I'm just trying to make the point that he would be happier with using the same money we had to buy 2 or 3 top quality players (and then rely on youth players to pad out the squad) rather than 7 more average ones. He did do well with what he was given - record points having not got Moutinho but given Dempsey.

This season of course it wasn't going perfectly, but to say that he had to go is like saying Moyes had to go, there's no reason why we couldn't have turned it round in the second half of the season. As I keep saying, we weren't on a 6 game losing streak, we were winning games and playing well in between some hammerings. I think his style, or the approach of coaches in that mould, is such that if it works, it looks good and if we lose it's only narrowly, but if it isn't working and clicking the plan we worked on all week goes out the window and we get hammered. But I think it was likely we would have gotten more consistency in the second half of the season if he was backed.

Mate, if you think we were playing well this season, then we have very different views on football.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, if you think we were playing well this season, then we have very different views on football.

I think you know that I wasn't saying every game. But I can point to games we played well just like you can point to games we didn't. And I will argue it is inconsistency to be expected from a largely new, foreign squad just like you will argue that it is evidence AVB was rubbish.

Probably a debate for the AVB thread...

 

[Spurs7891]

Appointing Sherwood is another proof that no top manager wants to work under Levy. Why would they when they will get sacked after 1-2 seasons ? Of all the managers Levy appointed during his 12 years at Spurs, Santini was the only successfull manager and he left after a few months. The rest either falls under the young managers category like Hoddle, Jol, Ramos, AVB and Sherwood or the old-and-experienced-but-with-no-success category like Pleat and Redknapp.

Was excited when we were linked with Van Gaal just a few days ago. But it must be pure rumours then, just like it was when we were linked with the likes of Mourinho and Ferguson in the past. You have to accept that no top managers in their right frame of mind would want to risk their reputation by working under Levy who sacks managers for fun !