F.A statement on the word "yid"

[mephitis]

That is the thing, yid hasn't been used in everyday speech to denigrate people since the 1970s-80s in my opinion. Some older jews find the term uncomfortable becuase they remember a time when it was used. But times were or are changing. Mosley and the black shirts was in the 1930s, almost 90 years ago! And Spurs use of the word remains an act of anti-racism in history.

Would be interesting to figure out when Spurs fans started to show franternity with jewish fans using the term ourselves, must have been in the 1960s or 70s? Or earlier?

I'd refer you to my previous answer "It's common currency in certain quarters, like the N & P words."

 

[mephitis]

@ShipOfGoldblum Chelsea supports are not critising Moses, the Torah, or a belief system, they are discriminating by race.

I like what you're saying - subtalties, vieled meaning, growing up. I share that. Being jewish wasn't something overtly talked about or mentioned necessarily. There was much more anti-semitism. But from the mid 90s until recently it wasn't so evident. Something changed, and in that time yid started to lose its historic racial meaning.

I guess I would like your thoughts on two things: would you ask gay people not to call themselves queer? Is there any pride in Spurs fans defying racist chants and nullifying them?

You really need to listen to this guy.......

You can’t define it from your own experience in a Spurs bubble.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'd refer you to my previous answer "It's common currency in certain quarters, like the N & P words."

"Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is what you said they sung while you walked to your car. Spurs. Not yid. How does your previous answer suggest yid is common currency? I mentioned general speech anyway.

Look ultimatly people need to address racism. Spurs fans are not racist. When opposition fans are - that is the issue. You wouldnt dream of combating homophoba by blaming gay people for approiating queer as their own term, nor would them stopping saying it change other peoples prejudices and discrimination. Address the prejudices and discrimination.

 

[mephitis]

"Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz" is what they sung while you walked to your car. Spurs. Not yid. How does your previous answer suggest yid is common currency? I was refering to general speech anyway.

Look ultimatly people need to address racism. Spurs fans are not racist. When opposition fans are - that is the issue. You wouldnt dream of combating homophoba by blaming gay people for approiating queer as their own term, nor would them stopping saying it change other peoples prejudices and discrimination. Address the prejudices and discrimination. Its simple.

You miss my point, which sort of is the point. To suggest that the the word "Yid" does not remain an anti-semitic insult because of the passage of time or its appropriation by Spurs fans is naive. The open letter, you yourself quote, should surely show you that, and the fact that, as an insult, it does indeed remain "current currency". The macarons that were singing the Auschwitz and other similar songs (and they weren't singing at me btw, I was merely an anonymous observer) were indeed aiming it at Spurs but you can't tell me that they're not aware of why they were referencing Hitler and the gas chambers etc. Similarly the word "queer" is still used as an insult despite it being used in a positive way amongst the gay community. It still remains a common way of insulting for many.

As background, my father was jewish, my mother gentile, I, therefore, am not jewish and whilst respectful (and a bit envious) of peoples faith, don't have a religious bone in my body. When my father got me on board with the whole Spurs thing back in the 60s, he was keen to emphasise the jewish connection and was proud of the fact. He was also happy to use the word Yid in that context (and as a term of affection with fellow jews) and given he was a bit of a zealot (I know, oxymoron) I've always been comfortable with us using it in the "I'm Spartacus!" way. Having said that, it's not a word I would want to spout in everyday conversation and particularly when with jewish friends or colleagues. SoT's reference to the "Spurs Bubble" is spot on. Not everyone likes football, pays it any attention or has even heard of Spurs (I know, I can't understand it either ). These people are likely to still find the word offensive.

NB Agree totally with your bolded text btw.

My last word on the subject (until it's raised again in a few month's time)!

 

[SpurMeUp]

I keep meaning to step away, but want to answer the reply. @mephitis I was removed from the 'Spurs bubble' saying: outside football, I don't think yid has been used widely to disparage since last century. You said it was 'common currency' used like the P and N word. I don't think that has been the case for a long time.

Inside football its a term associated with being a Spurs supporter. I conceed it has layers of meaning, with some, mainly those who are 40+ aware of its history, and others not. The media and Beddiels are doing a job re-establishing it as a racial term. But we can't police language, or wipe away history; we can let the term evolve naturally.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today 5-y&q=yid this backs up it is a predominatly footballing term now and not used to disparage in wider life.

 

[scaramanga]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1082698453191254016

"Of course she got raped, look at what she was wearing"

 

[MKSpur]

You miss my point, which sort of is the point. To suggest that the the word "Yid" does not remain an anti-semitic insult because of the passage of time or its appropriation by Spurs fans is naive. The open letter, you yourself quote, should surely show you that, and the fact that, as an insult, it does indeed remain "current currency". The macarons that were singing the Auschwitz and other similar songs (and they weren't singing at me btw, I was merely an anonymous observer) were indeed aiming it at Spurs but you can't tell me that they're not aware of why they were referencing Hitler and the gas chambers etc. Similarly the word "queer" is still used as an insult despite it being used in a positive way amongst the gay community. It still remains a common way of insulting for many.

As background, my father was jewish, my mother gentile, I, therefore, am not jewish and whilst respectful (and a bit envious) of peoples faith, don't have a religious bone in my body. When my father got me on board with the whole Spurs thing back in the 60s, he was keen to emphasise the jewish connection and was proud of the fact. He was also happy to use the word Yid in that context (and as a term of affection with fellow jews) and given he was a bit of a zealot (I know, oxymoron) I've always been comfortable with us using it in the "I'm Spartacus!" way. Having said that, it's not a word I would want to spout in everyday conversation and particularly when with jewish friends or colleagues. SoT's reference to the "Spurs Bubble" is spot on. Not everyone likes football, pays it any attention or has even heard of Spurs (I know, I can't understand it either ). These people are likely to still find the word offensive.

NB Agree totally with your bolded text btw.

My last word on the subject (until it's raised again in a few month's time)!

See I don’t use it in ever day conversation, only at a match and maybe to a Spurs fan as a ‘insider’ word we can use as Spurs fans. I only use it in the context of being a Spurs fan to a fellow Spurs fan or in a song or chant that I believe to be i defiance of the Anti Semitic abuse that is still being levelled at Spurs fans that isn’t actually a personal insult to me as I’m not Jewish or circumcised.

The way that this seems to be reported at the moment still feels like it’s making allowances for anti Semitic behaviour by the ‘fans’ using the platform of being anti Spurs to deliver it. ‘We hate Yids’ in the football context could be a bi product of us using the word and in my view wouldn’t be anti Semitic if used in that way, but Auschwitz songs, gas chamber hissing, lack of foreskins and rather be a P than a Jew should be stamped out regardless of anything we are saying in the same way that other racist and homophobic abuse en mass wouldn’t / shouldn’t be tolerated (in this country at least, monkey noises etc seems to still happen in other European football matches)

 

[Grays_1890]

Having said that, it's not a word I would want to spout in everyday conversation and particularly when with jewish friends or colleagues. SoT's reference to the "Spurs Bubble" is spot on. Not everyone likes football, pays it any attention or has even heard of Spurs (I know, I can't understand it either ). These people are likely to still find the word offensive.

But what vague words sometimes used to describe someone are used every day? My Grandad used the word every now and then not every day, he didn't call everyone he met who was Jewish a Yid he would call them by his name, the word was always used in the context of the conversation.

On the otherside I agree completely with MK and his football based explaination, you don't blame homosexuals and rightly so for their abuse because they have some pretty cavalier words they use to describe themselves, their TV shows, the clubs and nights they attend so why would you with Spurs fans for AS abuse for using the word Yid? I went to the cricket in Birmingham once and there was dozens and dozens of Pakistani fans with signs with "Paki Power" on them didn't give me a right to use the word.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Couldn't find the Yids thread. So thought I'd drag this up instead. Sorry to see it covered again by the club. But just replied to their email consulation re. Yid Army. Couldn't be bothered to write properly on it, but wrote this quickly:

What is missing from the (mostly non-Spurs supporting) analysts is that Yid is not used in general speech to refer to jews any more. At all. It was some 30 to 50 years ago. When have you heard the term "yid" used as a racial term? Language evolves and develops.

Before D Badiel's article deflecting attention from Chelsea supporters overt racism - hissing, referencing the holocost - most Spurs fans saw Yid just as Aresnal supporters had "Goon" or w. ham supporters used "Hammer".

Had a Spurs supporter looked into the history of the term, they could take pride in it being an anti-racist term. A way to combat racism. As a jew-ish supporter myself that is nice thing. I know there are some jewish spurs fans who feel intimidated going to chelsea for example, but take strength from the Spurs family being one, being unified against racism against them.

Let's not let the analysists and old - who remember the term with a different context and meaning - change our history. Becuase history can not be changed whether we like it not. But language will evolve and change meaning - if you let it.