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Ex-managers: I'm pining for the past and cannot move on

Which Ex-Manager?

  • Martin Jol

    Votes: 22 40.0%
  • Juande Ramos

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Harry Redknapp

    Votes: 22 40.0%
  • Andre Villas Boas

    Votes: 8 14.5%
  • Tim Sherwood

    Votes: 3 5.5%

  • Total voters
    55
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Harry was given a shedload of money to get us out **** we were in when he took over,levy agreed to that to save his skin,then we he took us nearly top to get to the next level Levy pulled the shutters down.

What was the cause and effect after Harry left......walker,bale,huddlestone,livermore,rose,all in their early twenties still at the club.....sherwood,ferdinand and ramsey bringing a good set of youngsters through,as it can be seen now..........so what was the effect???????
 
So, the big elephant in the room...

Yes it wasnt sustainable but like I say firstly they got us to where we wanted to in a shortish space of time and secondly I think Harry will have changed this policy if given the cash - dont forget he did identify the like sof Vertonghen who was coming in anyways.

I am sure his remit was to do something short term as we were in a bad state and he did that. He got us playing, successful in a fairly quick time. Its all about stages and developing. We didnt give him a chance to do that in the summer he was sacked.

Do you think we have a better squad now than under Harry? even with the 100m spent from Bale? No. We have worse players and very much doubt that Harry will have had our squad this bad. Thats the important thing here. Dont forget Harrys buys were sold for a fair amount of money so not like we just spunked 100m. Crouch, Defoe and others were sold for similiar values or even marginally more than their cost price.

Its not just league position, our football was better, team spirit was excellent, our stock was high and players seemed motivated. Instead right now we have players who im sick of, an unmotivated squad who dont seem to be enjoying being at the club and a 100m worse off. Not sure how in any way we are better off... financially? no because our 100m purchases are worth not even half that. Our stock? gone down. Stadium development? yes progressed but not much to do with the football on the pitch and to be honest right now we wouldnt fill it.

I think if you added Bale Modric and King to our squad now we'd be in an almost identical place to where Redknapp had us (depending on the performances of the clubs who have more money than us). The squad looks worse not because of the squad players but through the lack of top quality (which we as a club can't buy ready made)


I should have expanded on league position really - what i meant was the cause and effect of his time.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

This is the problem here... just because he wasnt the best Manager in the world doesnt mean he wasnt the right one for us. Its all about fit. Like my analogy you dont have to go for the sexiest girl in the world to have a happy successful relationship.

Youre citing all those reasons (some are correct and warranted) but so what? he still produced. Like you said he wasnt the best Manager in the world but he was certainly the best for us - thats what is most important and seems that alot of people are missing or ignoring.

You say that what happened after the sacking is down to poor choices which is fine and totally agree but then the accountability lies with Levy et al and they have had two chances to rectify it and a dozen more before Harry. Right now we have a totally quality devoid squad, ****e football and a Manager who needs to rectify all the ****e decisions by Baldini et al and that in itself is the issue. I dont blame Poch (his team selection is bizarre at times) and will need time but I just find it strange that people still persist with the reasons that are given in your post as the justification for not only sacking Harry but the justification of why we are here right now.

Ill tell you what the issue is, we have a general football forum where we have fans laughing at other clubs and spending time on dissecting other clubs performance when closer to home is the real issue. Glass houses stones throw etc etc etc

Maybe I wasn't clear.

I wasn't saying he didn't produce, but he could have done a hell of a lot more, and going forward it didn't appear that he would be the right fit for us if we wanted to improve - the fall away at the end of both seasons, his flirtation with other jobs as examples.

There's nothing to suggest he'd be the right fit now, or if he had stayed he would have continued to be the right fit. However, the real problem remains and has been there throughout the tenures of many managers.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

You do know that England's current CBs are Cahill, Jagielka, Jones and Smalling?!

I loved Dawson and am excited by Dier (and Stones and Gomez), but England's current mature crop of CBs are absolutely terrible.

Redknapp underperformed with the squad he had at his disposal. We've not had 4 world class players in the team for decades (Jol only had 2 [LK, DB], Venables 2 [PG, GL], Pleat 2 [GH, CW]). Yet we have no silverware to show for it.

Do you ever actually take a minute ot listen to yourself?.... I mean Redknapp under performed didn't he?.... After all his job was incredibly easy wasn't it?.... Coming into a club who are bottom of the league with pretty much a quarter of the season gone and an average of 0.25 points per game? The fact that you belittle this merely emphasises either your bias against an English manager or your lack of knowledge about what it takes to create a successful team.

The reality of the situation was that Redknapp took a squad that were bottom of the league with 2 points after 8 games.... The worst start we had made since about the 1950s or perhaps even before that! We were completely devoid of confidence, fight and a team identity. The team had seen it's best players sold over the past couple of seasons (Carrick, Berbatov, Keane) and replaced with ones of a much lower standard. Redknapp came in and instantly gave that team a system and a gameplan. He got them working for each other, but most of all he gave them belief.

When Redknapp took over it didn't look as though we had a single World class player, let alone 4 of them! Did anyone consider Modric or Bale to be World class players when Harry took over? Of course they didn't, the players instead both looked like little boys lost. While Ledley King was looking as though he was on his last legs with Ramos having trained him into the ground. The other World class player (VDV I assume?) was brought in by Redknapp, who then built the team's gameplan around that particular player.

Redknapp found a way to prolong Ledley's career.... He realised how important he was and therefore completely excused him from training, allowing Ledley himself to state whether he felt able to play or not the day before the game. That was absolutely brilliant management, yet I'm sure something you take for granted. Equally Redknap found a way to integrate Modric and Bale, to give them confidence, to get the team playing to their strengths and for both of them to work on their weaknesses.

Over three seasons Redknapp managed to build a team that got better and better. In his last season we were even considered title challengers for a while. He even got a few of us actually daring to dream. Not only that but he had us playing the best football to watch in the entire league. I lost count of the times opposition fans would come up to me on away days wanting to talk about how good our team were to watch. We were a proper Spurs team again, playing with passion, flair and daring. Since then we have merely gone backwards season after season both in terms of our results and in terms of the quality of the football we are playing (bar a little uptick under Sherwood)

I also see that in your list of English central defenders you fail to mention either John Terry or Jolean Lescott. Two players that would walk into our team currently (as would all of the English defenders you name above in fact).
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

In my opinion the decision was correct, or at least, was justified. It was the direction we went in from there that has led us to where we are now. All very confusing, however, as at the time it (AVB) seemed like a gamble worth taking, especially in the absence of credible alternatives........
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Imagine if Spurs had those players now.. the reason for what has happened since is not because of sacking Redknapp, the club needed to move on from him, but in what actually happened - a poor manager, a poor caretaker, poor signings and seemingly trying to do everything cheaply.

I would have no confidence that our current manager would do better than Redknapp did with the same players Redknapp had.... My reason for believing this is that currently I see our manager doing a LOT worse than Tim Sherwood did with the same set of players (and that was without Sherwood having had £30 odd million to spend in the transfer window).

I also find it interesting that there are people who still feel that Sherwood was a poor caretaker.... Came in, made no signings at all, promoted some of the young players, got us playing football that was acceptable to watch again and achieved the 5th highest points total from the time he came in. If that is being a 'poor caretaker' then I think your definition of good is perhaps a little beyond the sensible.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Do you ever actually take a minute ot listen to yourself?.... I mean Redknapp under performed didn't he?.... After all his job was incredibly easy wasn't it?.... Coming into a club who are bottom of the league with pretty much a quarter of the season gone and an average of 0.25 points per game? The fact that you belittle this merely emphasises either your bias against an English manager or your lack of knowledge about what it takes to create a successful team.

The reality of the situation was that Redknapp took a squad that were bottom of the league with 2 points after 8 games.... The worst start we had made since about the 1950s or perhaps even before that! We were completely devoid of confidence, fight and a team identity. The team had seen it's best players sold over the past couple of seasons (Carrick, Berbatov, Keane) and replaced with ones of a much lower standard. Redknapp came in and instantly gave that team a system and a gameplan. He got them working for each other, but most of all he gave them belief.

When Redknapp took over it didn't look as though we had a single World class player, let alone 4 of them! Did anyone consider Modric or Bale to be World class players when Harry took over? Of course they didn't, the players instead both looked like little boys lost. While Ledley King was looking as though he was on his last legs with Ramos having trained him into the ground. The other World class player (VDV I assume?) was brought in by Redknapp, who then built the team's gameplan around that particular player.

Redknapp found a way to prolong Ledley's career.... He realised how important he was and therefore completely excused him from training, allowing Ledley himself to state whether he felt able to play or not the day before the game. That was absolutely brilliant management, yet I'm sure something you take for granted. Equally Redknap found a way to integrate Modric and Bale, to give them confidence, to get the team playing to their strengths and for both of them to work on their weaknesses.

Over three seasons Redknapp managed to build a team that got better and better. In his last season we were even considered title challengers for a while. He even got a few of us actually daring to dream. Not only that but he had us playing the best football to watch in the entire league. I lost count of the times opposition fans would come up to me on away days wanting to talk about how good our team were to watch. We were a proper Spurs team again, playing with passion, flair and daring. Since then we have merely gone backwards season after season both in terms of our results and in terms of the quality of the football we are playing (bar a little uptick under Sherwood)

I also see that in your list of English central defenders you fail to mention either John Terry or Jolean Lescott. Two players that would walk into our team currently (as would all of the English defenders you name above in fact).

=D> again.

(This is getting embarrasing!)
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I think if you added Bale Modric and King to our squad now we'd be in an almost identical place to where Redknapp had us (depending on the performances of the clubs who have more money than us). The squad looks worse not because of the squad players but through the lack of top quality (which we as a club can't buy ready made)


I should have expanded on league position really - what i meant was the cause and effect of his time.

If you added Bale, Modric and King to our squad as they were when Harry first came in then I think we'd probably have seen King retiring through injury and Modric and Bale never becoming World class because they would've been chopped and changed and not given a gameplan to play to. In fact let's like Modric and Bale to Ericksen and Lamela.... both look completely lost as to what is expected of them, the areas of the pitch that they are supposed to be working in and the role they have within this team.
 
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Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Redknapp wanted to take us higher, he wanted Hazard in that Jan window, he wanted Remy, Tevez too iirc. Vertonghen was identified to replace King, Dembele to come in the summer too.

All this whilst he was in court and also hitching up his skirt in the FA's direction.

Levy decided to go in a different direction instead.

Letting go of Redknapp wasn't so much the problem, hiring AVB was the wrong choice. I said it then and I still stick with it, Martinez was the one who should have taken over from Redknapp
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Redknapp wanted to take us higher, he wanted Hazard in that Jan window, he wanted Remy, Tevez too iirc. Vertonghen was identified to replace King, Dembele to come in the summer too.

All this whilst he was in court and also hitching up his skirt in the FA's direction.

Levy decided to go in a different direction instead.

Letting go of Redknapp wasn't so much the problem, hiring AVB was the wrong choice. I said it then and I still stick with it, Martinez was the one who should have taken over from Redknapp

He was my first choice all along such a shame. This is why I also think Levy seems to get away with it a fair bit - AVB was never the right man.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

In that case I think perhaps you simply fail to see what is required to be successful in football in this country.

sextuple_facepalm.png
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

In that case I think perhaps you simply fail to see what is required to be successful in football in this country.

"Brutish British core, especially at the back"..... When was Wenger's Arsenal team most successful?.... Was it with the likes of Adams, Keown and Campbell at the back? Did he seriously prolong the careers of Dixon and Winterburn? Did he bring through Ashley Cole as well? What about Chelsea - John Terry and Ashley Cole were the mainstays of their team for years - with Terry and now Cahill still being the first choice pair there. Look at Ferguson's Man Utd teams - always plethora of English defenders. Do those guys know what they are doing do you think? Could you imagine any of Ferguson, Mourinho or Wenger signing a Vlad ****ing Chiriches?!?

Why did THFC ignore Lescott this summer and instead spend £10 million on Fazio when looking for a commanding centre half who is good in the air? Which of the two of them do you think would look better for us right now? Which do you think Redknapp (or Sherwood) would've signed?

You talk about Redknapp's Pompey and West Ham.... At West Ham Redknapp signed Paulo DiCanio, a young Jermaine Defoe, a young Freddie Kanoute, a young Eyal Berkovic, a young Trevor Sinclair and brought Joe Cole through. I can't really think of the 'mature forwards' that he brought in there? Unless you mean when he brought in Ian Wright or Davor Suker as short term pragmatic signings before he could get a long term choice?

Also at Portsmouth - Redknapp brought in Defoe and Crouch who formed a brilliant partnership for them - neither were what you would call 'mature' then. More approaching (but probably not yet quite at) their peak.

Equally to say that there was little gameplan going forward with Redknapp's teams is ridiculous. Redknapp's Pompey, West Ham and Spurs teams were all excellent going forward.

Admittedly I haven't really paid too much attention to Warnock's teams - however typically he has been brought into clubs in order to gain promotion (which he is bloody good at) and then to try to keep a relegation favourite up (which he has been less good at).

Redknapp came in to our club to manage a team that was heading for the Championship (and yes it was that bad.... I was there) and he turned us around immediately so that we still had a chance of Europa League football at the end of that season. He then finished 4th in his first full season at the club. He then kept us in that area of the league with further 5th, 4th finishes. He gave our team a balance, an identity, a belief and he also made us probably the best team in the country to watch.

I find the way that you belittle this unbelievably insulting and it leads me to believe that you perhaps have little knowledge of what it takes to create a successful football team. Pragmatism might not be sexy, but some of it is always required. Our club has seriously lacked that for a few years now (other than a short spell in the second half of last season).

Very , very well put.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Is this a picture of you, GB and the others who wanted Redknapp/Sherwood out and now realise exactly what you have done?!? :lol:
It's a picture of everyone outside England laughing at our country's fail every time we try and suggest that football here is somehow different.

The obstacle of getting your ideas past the small minded and xenophobic doesn't count.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Do you ever actually take a minute ot listen to yourself?.... I mean Redknapp under performed didn't he?.... After all his job was incredibly easy wasn't it?.... Coming into a club who are bottom of the league with pretty much a quarter of the season gone and an average of 0.25 points per game? The fact that you belittle this merely emphasises either your bias against an English manager or your lack of knowledge about what it takes to create a successful team.

The reality of the situation was that Redknapp took a squad that were bottom of the league with 2 points after 8 games.... The worst start we had made since about the 1950s or perhaps even before that! We were completely devoid of confidence, fight and a team identity. The team had seen it's best players sold over the past couple of seasons (Carrick, Berbatov, Keane) and replaced with ones of a much lower standard. Redknapp came in and instantly gave that team a system and a gameplan. He got them working for each other, but most of all he gave them belief.

When Redknapp took over it didn't look as though we had a single World class player, let alone 4 of them! Did anyone consider Modric or Bale to be World class players when Harry took over? Of course they didn't, the players instead both looked like little boys lost. While Ledley King was looking as though he was on his last legs with Ramos having trained him into the ground. The other World class player (VDV I assume?) was brought in by Redknapp, who then built the team's gameplan around that particular player.

Redknapp found a way to prolong Ledley's career.... He realised how important he was and therefore completely excused him from training, allowing Ledley himself to state whether he felt able to play or not the day before the game. That was absolutely brilliant management, yet I'm sure something you take for granted. Equally Redknap found a way to integrate Modric and Bale, to give them confidence, to get the team playing to their strengths and for both of them to work on their weaknesses.

Over three seasons Redknapp managed to build a team that got better and better. In his last season we were even considered title challengers for a while. He even got a few of us actually daring to dream. Not only that but he had us playing the best football to watch in the entire league. I lost count of the times opposition fans would come up to me on away days wanting to talk about how good our team were to watch. We were a proper Spurs team again, playing with passion, flair and daring. Since then we have merely gone backwards season after season both in terms of our results and in terms of the quality of the football we are playing (bar a little uptick under Sherwood)

I also see that in your list of English central defenders you fail to mention either John Terry or Jolean Lescott. Two players that would walk into our team currently (as would all of the English defenders you name above in fact).

=D> You are owning him
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Letting go of Redknapp wasn't so much the problem, hiring AVB was the wrong choice. I said it then and I still stick with it, Martinez was the one who should have taken over from Redknapp

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

I mentioned it in another thread

BMJ = Success (Motivator)
Ramos = Failure (Rules/disciplinarian)
Harry = Success (Motivator)
AVB = Failure (System/rules)
Sherwood = Success? (Motivator) - side note, my evaluation of TS was as a interim coach
Poch = ??? (System/Rules)

Anyone else see a pattern there?

Absolutely. You can even include Hoddle who is more of a system/rule kind of boss, definitely not a motivator/big personality.
 
Re: So, the big elephant in the room...

Levy just doesn't get it.
 
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