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Eric Dier

papaspur said:
You've misrepresented the facts in your attempt to bail out Dier by spacegoating other players. I see so many people here virtue signaling from their high horses, so don't take this personally because I'm not trying to single you out; we've all got our opinions but let's make it clear when we're offering an actual FACT vs. "a retelling of the events as how I wanted them to happen."

Go watch the buildup to the goal again. Dier goes to ground for a tackle in midfield but doesn't win the ball. Instead, it ends up at Edwards' feet and he makes his drive up the field. PEH also goes to ground in an attempt to win the ball back or cause a foul but accomplishes neither. Davies sees the danger and starts running back towards goal, drifting towards Edwards and letting Perisic try to cover the player on our left flank. Romero could have stepped up and engaged Edwards but he probably had the other opposition player running on our right flank on his mind, but Doherty is there and should be covering him. Finally, Lloris also could do a bit better too but IMO, those shots are something Kane is good at: low and hard into the bottom corner from just outside the box. I'm not a professional goalkeeper so I cannot say whether he really should've saved the goal... it actually seemed like a good goal to be fair, but one that shouldn't be happening.

To conclude, let me get this straight: we can blame certain players, just not Dier?
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It's not misrepresenting the facts one bit, it's what happened. You've stated exactly what what I did for the most part

a) Dier is beaten in midfield (we both say the same in different ways)
b) PEH misses the tackle and misses the foul, we're both in agreement
c) Romero doesn't close Edwards down, no need for him not to with Doherty covering, both in agreement
d) Lloris should've saved it, the only point I see we disagree on

So how the hell does that end up with Dier being largely responsible, when three (two according to you) are as equally if not more responsible, unless you want to spacegoat Dier???

I've no problem with blaming Dier (or anyone else) when he is responsible, in this case he is not largely to blame as has been stated.
 
papaspur said:
You've misrepresented the facts in your attempt to bail out Dier by spacegoating other players. I see so many people here virtue signaling from their high horses, so don't take this personally because I'm not trying to single you out; we've all got our opinions but let's make it clear when we're offering an actual FACT vs. "a retelling of the events as how I wanted them to happen."

Go watch the buildup to the goal again. Dier goes to ground for a tackle in midfield but doesn't win the ball. Instead, it ends up at Edwards' feet and he makes his drive up the field. PEH also goes to ground in an attempt to win the ball back or cause a foul but accomplishes neither. Davies sees the danger and starts running back towards goal, drifting towards Edwards and letting Perisic try to cover the player on our left flank. Romero could have stepped up and engaged Edwards but he probably had the other opposition player running on our right flank on his mind, but Doherty is there and should be covering him. Finally, Lloris also could do a bit better too but IMO, those shots are something Kane is good at: low and hard into the bottom corner from just outside the box. I'm not a professional goalkeeper so I cannot say whether he really should've saved the goal... it actually seemed like a good goal to be fair, but one that shouldn't be happening.

To conclude, let me get this straight: we can blame certain players, just not Dier?
Click to expand...

The clue was in the phrase ‘largely responsible’…you’ve just outlined why the ‘largely’ isn’t applicable in this case.
BTW, could you define the ‘virtue signalling’ in your opinion?
 
DubSpur said:
It's not misrepresenting the facts one bit, it's what happened. You've stated exactly what what I did for the most part

a) Dier is beaten in midfield (we both say the same in different ways)
b) PEH misses the tackle and misses the foul, we're both in agreement
c) Romero doesn't close Edwards down, no need for him not to with Doherty covering, both in agreement
d) Lloris should've saved it, the only point I see we disagree on

So how the hell does that end up with Dier being largely responsible, when three (two according to you) are as equally if not more responsible, unless you want to spacegoat Dier???

I've no problem with blaming Dier (or anyone else) when he is responsible, in this case he is not largely to blame as has been stated.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the point I'm making: I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, including Dier. It's simply about being held accountable, which Dier is in this case along with 2-3 other players. The strange thing is that I see a lot of posters act very defensively when it comes to Dier, perhaps even moreso than Son. By the way, if there's one or maybe two posters who say every single player is brick, they're outliers. I generally ignore the opinions of those posters and I'd hope any other sensible poster would do the same since the discussion isn't furthered at all. But just as we have these haters on the forums, we also have fanboys who reliably show up to defend certain players. I find both sets of fans to be equally vapid in terms of worth to any sort of discussion. Most people aren't aware of their own biases and I say this to make a general point to everyone.

I watched the buildup to that goal about 20 times now and there's still some things I didn't notice until watching it again just now... like how Bentancur is pushed up to where Son usually is, and Son is right behind him... and the ball gets played past both of them. I know Bentancur pushes up a bit to trigger his one-man press at times, I honestly don't know why he does that but I assume that's something he does on his own as opposed to being instructed to do so by Conte... or maybe he's triggering the press and the others are supposed to follow?

Also, I now think Doherty should've done better with marking his man.

b60eb3a43b6e810ab20afe7b717ed401.jpg


I would link the video but it's probably geo-locked... one ball pretty much bypasses our whole midfield. I drew orange lines for which player our defender should be marking and blue for which one they actually marked. Edwards didn't have to shoot, he had an option to pass to on the left. It seems that Doherty and Romero were covering the same player and thus got in each other's way. Davies was actually VERY fast to react to the situation that unfolded and had Edwards covered. But again, Romero is in Davies' space because Doherty is in Romero's space. All of these players marking/watching without actually defending probably created a nice little screen for Lloris which made his job more difficult. But yeah, they all should have done better.

Back to the point, where we differ is that I gave a largely boring play-by-play while sprinkling my opinion in near the end, whereas yours literally starts off by stating that Dier is not "largely responsible." To me, it seems like you're making the choice not to be critical of Dier, whereas you make the choice to be critical of PEH, Romero, Lloris.
IMO, Dier going for the tackle did cause a chain reaction of poor decisions so he really makes things more difficult for the other defenders, just as his job was made a little more difficult by other players further up-field to allow that initial pass played into Edwards in the first place. So no, I don't wish to put all the blame at Dier, but I won't go and pretend like he didn't do anything wrong there.

TL;DR
For everyone, please try to be fair and reasonable. I remind myself of this too... I am still at a loss of words for what to say about the last minute offsides decision. I feel I'm too biased to comment about what happened, so for those things I just withhold my opinion until I get some clarity.
 
papaspur said:
IMO, those shots are something Kane is good at: low and hard into the bottom corner from just outside the box.
Click to expand...
Except frustratingly those Kane daisycutters seem mainly to skim the wrong side of the post these days. Thankfully though he's finding others ways to score, eg nodding in from close range.
 
papaspur said:
Back to the point, where we differ is that I gave a largely boring play-by-play while sprinkling my opinion in near the end, whereas yours literally starts off by stating that Dier is not "largely responsible." To me, it seems like you're making the choice not to be critical of Dier, whereas you make the choice to be critical of PEH, Romero, Lloris.
Click to expand...
No, it's not choosing not to be critical of Dier, it's stating that he is not largely responsible as there are others also responsible, I stated he was beaten by a move in midfield, that's his fault.
Anyway, I'm out, not going around in circles when you don't seem to get the point about making one person largely responsible for a goal when 3 others are also to blame.
 
thfcsteff said:
The clue was in the phrase ‘largely responsible’…you’ve just outlined why the ‘largely’ isn’t applicable in this case.
BTW, could you define the ‘virtue signalling’ in your opinion?
Click to expand...

Err... does anyone else think Dier was largely responsible for Edwards goal and should have put at least a header on target?
Click to expand...
That was the original post from @metalgear which @DubSpur responded to, so that's the context. Personally, I do think Dier holds a large chunk of the blame but I'm not some sort of 'blame accountant' trying to figure out exactly how much of the blame share to assign to everyone. A lot of players could've done better in that situation but Dier made a pretty large error there when he took himself out of the play. Don't get me wrong though as I mentioned in my latest post, I feel like I'm understanding of Dier's workload this season and I think this is simply the outcome of that.

What particularly irked me was putting more blame on PEH than Dier for what transpired. To state "don't spacegoat this player, you should spacegoat this other player instead" is my 'virtue signaling' reference. So if you want my definition of virtue signaling, it's basically the act of making an account on Twitter, trawling through tweets to find something that offends you, and then acting all surprised that this thing you looked really hard for offended you by writing an equally-offensive post.

At the end of the day, I don't want to spacegoat anyone. I think (and sincerely hope) most of us feel that way towards the players and staff. It's hard not to get emotional about sport so I get it, sometimes people's opinions can become clouded and that's fine. We just need to come back to earth eventually and be real with ourselves once we've processed what happened after the emotions subside.
 
DubSpur said:
No, it's not choosing not to be critical of Dier, it's stating that he is not largely responsible as there are others also responsible, I stated he was beaten by a move in midfield, that's his fault.
Anyway, I'm out, not going around in circles when you don't seem to get the point about making one person largely responsible for a goal when 3 others are also to blame.
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Do relax since we can both have different opinions without the world ending. I tried to have a discussion, that's why I posted that screengrab from the highlights. Maybe others will have insightful things to say.
 
billyiddo said:
I'd have to watch the goal back but i thought at the time that PEH was the main culprit although I'm sure after his moment there would have been an opportunity for a defender to step in and clear things up.
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Think about the impact to the the other defenders who often rely on the last man as a reference for positioning. When the last man goes out of position and loses the ball in midfield, its a scramble to recreate a make shift back line and all the drills go out the window.

Might be fine if it's 2 CBs who are used to alternate leading the line, but I think in our 3 CB set up, it's the Lcb or Rcb who is supposed to be taking risks.

Despite 3 CBs and all the experience there, we have to admit that our defence is leaky.

Re. Hojberg... Yes poor on him for not reacting smart enough but I think he was expecting Dier to get the ball. Looked frozen when Edwards turned towards him.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Errors were made by several of our players I thought. Was a very good, well placed shot but I think many keepers save that, seemed as though Lloris got no real push off of his right foot for his dive.
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Could be slight loss of footing or being unsighted by the defenders that Edwards was going across, but yeah the other 35 year old goal keeper at the other end looked more lively and confident whole game.
 
papaspur said:
That's exactly the point I'm making: I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, including Dier. It's simply about being held accountable, which Dier is in this case along with 2-3 other players. The strange thing is that I see a lot of posters act very defensively when it comes to Dier, perhaps even moreso than Son. By the way, if there's one or maybe two posters who say every single player is brick, they're outliers. I generally ignore the opinions of those posters and I'd hope any other sensible poster would do the same since the discussion isn't furthered at all. But just as we have these haters on the forums, we also have fanboys who reliably show up to defend certain players. I find both sets of fans to be equally vapid in terms of worth to any sort of discussion. Most people aren't aware of their own biases and I say this to make a general point to everyone.

I watched the buildup to that goal about 20 times now and there's still some things I didn't notice until watching it again just now... like how Bentancur is pushed up to where Son usually is, and Son is right behind him... and the ball gets played past both of them. I know Bentancur pushes up a bit to trigger his one-man press at times, I honestly don't know why he does that but I assume that's something he does on his own as opposed to being instructed to do so by Conte... or maybe he's triggering the press and the others are supposed to follow?

Also, I now think Doherty should've done better with marking his man.

b60eb3a43b6e810ab20afe7b717ed401.jpg


I would link the video but it's probably geo-locked... one ball pretty much bypasses our whole midfield. I drew orange lines for which player our defender should be marking and blue for which one they actually marked. Edwards didn't have to shoot, he had an option to pass to on the left. It seems that Doherty and Romero were covering the same player and thus got in each other's way. Davies was actually VERY fast to react to the situation that unfolded and had Edwards covered. But again, Romero is in Davies' space because Doherty is in Romero's space. All of these players marking/watching without actually defending probably created a nice little screen for Lloris which made his job more difficult. But yeah, they all should have done better.

Back to the point, where we differ is that I gave a largely boring play-by-play while sprinkling my opinion in near the end, whereas yours literally starts off by stating that Dier is not "largely responsible." To me, it seems like you're making the choice not to be critical of Dier, whereas you make the choice to be critical of PEH, Romero, Lloris.
IMO, Dier going for the tackle did cause a chain reaction of poor decisions so he really makes things more difficult for the other defenders, just as his job was made a little more difficult by other players further up-field to allow that initial pass played into Edwards in the first place. So no, I don't wish to put all the blame at Dier, but I won't go and pretend like he didn't do anything wrong there.

TL;DR
For everyone, please try to be fair and reasonable. I remind myself of this too... I am still at a loss of words for what to say about the last minute offsides decision. I feel I'm too biased to comment about what happened, so for those things I just withhold my opinion until I get some clarity.
Click to expand...

That's a good picture to show that it was vital for the first CB to win it othewise chaos ensues.

Most competent CBs go for the "professional" foul to stop the play and regroup. Son gets dragged down in time and time again and a lot more this season.
 
That game shows what we are missing when he doesn't play. The whole defence was all over the place, no organistaion or leadership. They looked like total strangers.
He might not be the most gifted defender but he is solid and gives us that leadership nobody else does. We can't start games without both him and Romero.
 
DubSpur said:
That game shows what we are missing when he doesn't play. The whole defence was all over the place, no organistaion or leadership. They looked like total strangers.
He might not be the most gifted defender but he is solid and gives us that leadership nobody else does. We can't start games without both him and Romero.
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I think it just shows more how bad the alternatives are tbh. I like Dier, gives 100% always and when on his game is decent. Also think was fair enough for him to be rested today, he definitely needs one….
 
showed how important he is today, even playing out of position

it was worth trying Lenglet as the anchor, but he wasn't in control
 
DubSpur said:
That game shows what we are missing when he doesn't play. The whole defence was all over the place, no organistaion or leadership. They looked like total strangers.
He might not be the most gifted defender but he is solid and gives us that leadership nobody else does. We can't start games without both him and Romero.
Click to expand...
He talks
He leads
He lacks something’s
But he does the basics better than most of the other players
 
metalgear said:
That's a good picture to show that it was vital for the first CB to win it othewise chaos ensues.

Most competent CBs go for the "professional" foul to stop the play and regroup. Son gets dragged down in time and time again and a lot more this season.
Click to expand...

Confirmation bias there mate.
 
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