ENIC

[DeanoAustin]

Lets add nuance again

- Do I think we will ever back a manager with a big purchase? yes, Ndombele, Richi, Solanke (last 2 showing we can still do it post Ndombele PTSD). And I expect that number will go up as the need for quantity of players per window goes down
- The piece that the club balances (I expect) that no one typically acknowledges is, Arsenal has given Arteta 800M, all spent after the cup win he lucked out on in his takeover season, that 800M has effectively got them top 4 in 5 years.

That last point is the piece everyone misses .. we have spent 500M in five years, Scum have spent 800M in same timeframe and yet?

Spurs will not suddenly become successful if ENIC takes a little more risk, or new owners come in that are willing to spend like Arsenal & Liverpool, it will take City/Chelsea/Saudi Sportswashing Machine type money and what comes with that .. and yes, I get that is a trade most fans will happily make.

I'm talking more on the wages front really. I doubt Richi and Solanke are on wages comparable to Rice, VVD or Alisson.

The club have headroom on wages from a PSR perspective, we have cash in the bank but we choose to keep our wages to turnover ratio the lowest in the league. Top players don't care about transfer fees, the fee just gets you in the door with the club - top players want a big wage and to be competitive. We're not willing to pay the really big wages to get a player. We're fiscally very conservative and always have been under Levy.

 

[Lilbaz]

I'm talking more on the wages front really. I doubt Richi and Solanke are on wages comparable to Rice, VVD or Alisson.

The club have headroom on wages from a PSR perspective, we have cash in the bank but we choose to keep our wages to turnover ratio the lowest in the league. Top players don't care about transfer fees, the fee just gets you in the door with the club - top players want a big wage and to be competitive. We're not willing to pay the really big wages to get a player. We're fiscally very conservative and always have been under Levy.

£200k a week seems around our limit. There are only a handful of teams that pay more than that. Teams such aas barca and utd have regretted exceeding that and have tried cutting wages accordingly.

 

[DeanoAustin]

£200k a week seems around our limit. There are only a handful of teams that pay more than that. Teams such aas barca and utd have regretted exceeding that and have tried cutting wages accordingly.

That's the point, it's our self-imposed limit. Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and City have exceeded that amount and have silverware to show for it. Despite the brick they are in now, so too do United.

 

[Bishop]

Lets add nuance again

- Do I think we will ever back a manager with a big purchase? yes, Ndombele, Richi, Solanke (last 2 showing we can still do it post Ndombele PTSD). And I expect that number will go up as the need for quantity of players per window goes down
- The piece that the club balances (I expect) that no one typically acknowledges is, Arsenal has given Arteta 800M, all spent after the cup win he lucked out on in his takeover season, that 800M has effectively got them top 4 in 5 years.

That last point is the piece everyone misses .. we have spent 500M in five years, Scum have spent 800M in same timeframe and yet?

Spurs will not suddenly become successful if ENIC takes a little more risk, or new owners come in that are willing to spend like Arsenal & Liverpool, it will take City/Chelsea/Saudi Sportswashing Machine type money and what comes with that .. and yes, I get that is a trade most fans will happily make.

I don't really agree with your proposition. You're looking at the purely head line figures. How you spend it and when you spend it is just as important as the pure figures. 100m in 2019 was a big spend by ourselves but it didn't make much of an impact whereas that same 100m spread over 2016-2018 probably results in a trophy.

It's also a little disengerous to speak as if Arsenal's spend hasn't achieved anything. It's not their spend that failed them, they got 84 and 89 points and both seasons had the league title within their grasp only for them to bottle it.

They didn't fail due to a lack of spending but instead moreso because of where they focused the money. Too much on defense and not enough on a striker.

 

[Bishop]

He rocks the boat how?
He fires people he perceives are not delivering
Good and bad, that’s his call as owner

I'm saying he doesn't rock the boat. Rocking the boat just isn't worth the risk from ENIC's perspective.

 

[Baleforce]

That's the point, it's our self-imposed limit. Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and City have exceeded that amount and have silverware to show for it. Despite the brick they are in now, so too do United.

Lots of teams are beyond the limit but don’t win anything.

Aren’t Villa at 96% or something.

Arsenal and United haven’t won a title for years.

I think there is a bigger picture here that people are ignoring.

 

[Jordinho]

But that’s the issue my friend, the better they do or the higher their ceiling, eventually they will leave and without the tangible benefits of a trophy or prolonged successs.

The means to an end for ENIC is an unsatisfied player and a big transfer fee

We don't lost many of our best players. How many in the last 5 years? Kane?

What we really haven't been good enough at is moving on players while they still have some value, but are past their peak. Eriksen, Alli, Dier etc. Instead we have to suffer through a couple of seasons of decline before they walk on a free.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's not a new approach. It's the old approach that saw us buy the likes of walker and bale.

Of course you're right.
But due to the new financial position probably has more scope.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

But this not really what happens.
Buying and Selling players is part of the fabric,
We don’t expect players to stay for life.
The issue is why they leave.

At spurs it’s because of a realisation that under this ownership, truly competing consistently is not the primary concern.

Agreed let’s see how we go this time but given that we have been on progressive regression since the peak Poch years, it’s not something I’ll be banking on

Didn't we go a long time when it was only Walker that went.

Harry left but to keep him as long as we did was an achievement if we're honest.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That's the point, it's our self-imposed limit. Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and City have exceeded that amount and have silverware to show for it. Despite the brick they are in now, so too do United.

Arsenal?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Didn't we go a long time when it was only Walker that went.

Harry left but to keep him as long as we did was an achievement if we're honest.

It could be said it was an achievement to get him to sign the contract he did and then not be as ambitious as he would have thought (when it came to the crunch).
The real achievement would have been buying a top striker (i.e. one who would be a 15 league goal a season minimum) AND keeping Harry.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Arsenal?

Since we last won a trophy, Arsenal have won 4....
Since we moved into the new stadium Arsenal have won more trophies, spent more money and been in more CL campaigns than us...

 

[billyiddo]

Since we last won a trophy, Arsenal have won 4....
Since we moved into the new stadium Arsenal have won more trophies, spent more money and been in more CL campaigns than us...

How long after moving in to their new stadium did it take them to win anything? And that's with them going in to that period off the back of being the 1st/2nd best team in the league for a good few years. Why do you think we should be able to move stadium and be more competitive in the immediate years after?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Arsenal?

4 FA Cups since we last won a trophy. That’s half the amount we’ve won in 150 years and it used to be “our trophy”.

 

[glorygloryeze]

How long after moving in to their new stadium did it take them to win anything? And that's with them going in to that period off the back of being the 1st/2nd best team in the league for a good few years. Why do you think we should be able to move stadium and be more competitive in the immediate years after?

8 years. They stayed relatively competitive in that time though (i.e. never finishing outside top 4).
The point seemingly being made by @DeanoAustin is that in terms of relative spend on wages teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, City etc did not impose limits on their spending on wages AND have the silverware to show it was perhaps worth doing

Please correct me if i've misunderstood/misrepresented your point @DeanoAustin

 

[Raziel]

£200k a week seems around our limit. There are only a handful of teams that pay more than that. Teams such aas barca and utd have regretted exceeding that and have tried cutting wages accordingly.

I actually think a reasonable conversation is how we structure wages
- My understanding is we have levels, and players broadly based on play time/seniority move to the brackets (obviously some negotiation/variation for senior players), that creates "brackets/limits"

If you look at Barca/Real, you have a select few players on outrageous salaries, and a lot of the team earns less than our middle of the pack. Do we need to go there?

 

[billyiddo]

8 years. They stayed relatively competitive in that time though (i.e. never finishing outside top 4).
The point seemingly being made by @DeanoAustin is that in terms of relative spend on wages teams like Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, City etc did not impose limits on their spending on wages AND have the silverware to show it was perhaps worth doing

Please correct me if i've misunderstood/misrepresented your point @DeanoAustin

I don't know what point DeanoAustin is making I'm just responding to your post which was comparing what we have done since opening our stadium to what Arsenal have done in the same time frame. Some vital context missing imo

 

[DeanoAustin]

Lots of teams are beyond the limit but don’t win anything.

Aren’t Villa at 96% or something.

Arsenal and United haven’t won a title for years.

I think there is a bigger picture here that people are ignoring.

Villa are being reckless. I would hope we never end up there. We shouldn’t be going anywhere too far north of 60% of revenue on wages. That’d mean an almost 50% increase on what we spend today though which you’d imagine would attract a better standard of player.

United have won 5 trophies in the past decade, Arsenal have won 4. They may be trophies you don’t respect but they are what most Spurs fans would be more than happy with. Funnily enough, if you think we should just compete for the two trophies you want, we’ll probably have to go to 96% of revenue being spent on wages.

How long after moving in to their new stadium did it take them to win anything? And that's with them going in to that period off the back of being the 1st/2nd best team in the league for a good few years. Why do you think we should be able to move stadium and be more competitive in the immediate years after?

I’m not too familiar with Arsenal’s stadium move and what that meant for their financial situation. I am fairly familiar with ours. We’re now generating significantly more revenue than ever. Our repayments are not that restrictive (25m a year I think). We were even promised that the stadium would be a game changer and yet, here we are 6 years down the road and still trophyless. That lot, at least, we’re still competing and in the CL every year after the stadium build. Remember, we’d just come off 4 years in the CL and a CL final in 2019.

I’ll also be willing to bet that Arsenal always spent more than 42%-47% of turnover on wages through that period too.

Im not damning ENIC, they’ve done great things for our club and they run a great business. But they spend too little on wages to be serious contenders and that is a huge part of why we haven’t won trophies and don’t really compete for the big prizes.

 

[scaramanga]

United are a particularly bad example, I recall that Liverpool supposedly pay with very heavily incentivised contracts as well. I honestly don't think it's uncommon, City are similar. United are more of an outlier, but thats probably in part a legacy thing but also because they tried to sign higher profile players whilst having a less attractive offer.

Worth bearing in mind that those other clubs will actually be paying their performance bonuses too.

Given the brickshow we've been putting on lately, I'd be amazed if any of our players had qualified for theirs.

 

[billyiddo]

Villa are being reckless. I would hope we never end up there. We shouldn’t be going anywhere too far north of 60% of revenue on wages. That’d mean an almost 50% increase on what we spend today though which you’d imagine would attract a better standard of player.

United have won 5 trophies in the past decade, Arsenal have won 4. They may be trophies you don’t respect but they are what most Spurs fans would be more than happy with. Funnily enough, if you think we should just compete for the two trophies you want, we’ll probably have to go to 96% of revenue being spent on wages.


I’m not too familiar with Arsenal’s stadium move and what that meant for their financial situation. I am fairly familiar with ours. We’re now generating significantly more revenue than ever. Our repayments are not that restrictive (25m a year I think). We were even promised that the stadium would be a game changer and yet, here we are 6 years down the road and still trophyless. That lot, at least, we’re still competing and in the CL every year after the stadium build. Remember, we’d just come off 4 years in the CL and a CL final in 2019.

I’ll also be willing to bet that Arsenal always spent more than 42%-47% of turnover on wages through that period too.

Im not damning ENIC, they’ve done great things for our club and they run a great business. But they spend too little on wages to be serious contenders and that is a huge part of why we haven’t won trophies and don’t really compete for the big prizes.

Would be interesting to see what their wages were at that time - my guess is pretty low. I know they had huge reserves of cash, similar to us and spent close to a decade post move locked in to a sell to buy era. Also back then the PL was not as competitive with an established top 4 - no top 6/8 like there us now.