ENIC

[DubSpur]

Everything in the U.K. is incorporated. Even the justice systems and public services.

This does not look particularly complex for a big organisation with diversified income streams.

Anyone who can find evidence they have acquired and siphoned off land (what evidence is there?)needs to offset land they have acquired for the Northumberland Park Development which will provide revenue for the club.

We don’t necessarily have a problem with Daniel owning a decent percentage of the club but then paying himself millions to run the entire business without prioritising footballing success is what we object to.

What happens to the club when Lewis or Levy dies is an interesting idea. Will one of the other trust beneficiaries step straight into the dead man’s shoes or what? I guess this continuity is private but it is relevant to ongoing stability. Never heard this discussed either.

Don't worry it was a joke, although some are convinced that they are siphoning off profits without being able to provide a shred of evidence.

When Lewis kicks the bucket his daughter, Vivienne, will take over. She's already on the boards of his companies and involved in his businesses for most of her life.
She was engaged to Craig Johnson for about 20 years and is supposed to be a football fan, so it could be a good thing.
Similar with Levy, his son is already heavily involved with ENIC or Tavistock but that doesn't mean he'd just step in as chairman.

 

[Mikey10]

We don’t necessarily have a problem with Daniel owning a decent percentage of the club but then paying himself millions to run the entire business without prioritising footballing success is what we object to.

This and the fact that he frequently makes very poor decisions around the football side - whether that's his policy of playing managerial hopscotch, jumping from one random style of manager to the next, or failing to invest at the right time in the squad with players that managers actually want.

 

[RigorMortis]

We'll always be at a risk of losing our very best to the biggest clubs unless really successful (and even then there's a risk of that).

What this strategy has allowed us in the past is quite frequent new contracts, increase wages and extend the contract at the same time. Allows for good negotiation conditions at the very least, but also keeping players longer.

To me buying a lot of players that can end up being much more valuable (as players for us, not to be sold) than their initial fee is a key part of any potential success as long as we're not money doped. If we don't succeed at that we won't succeed imo.

And those players typically have lower wages than those already fully developed and proved. That allows us to spend more on transfers.

But that’s the issue my friend, the better they do or the higher their ceiling, eventually they will leave and without the tangible benefits of a trophy or prolonged successs.

The means to an end for ENIC is an unsatisfied player and a big transfer fee

 

[DubSpur]

But that’s the issue my friend, the better they do or the higher their ceiling, eventually they will leave and without the tangible benefits of a trophy or prolonged successs.

The means to an end for ENIC is an unsatisfied player and a big transfer fee

In that case we should stop buying players that are going to develop into top quality players, help improve the team while here, and if they do go get a huge transfer fee, and instead just buy average players.

 

[Bishop]

But that’s the issue my friend, the better they do or the higher their ceiling, eventually they will leave and without the tangible benefits of a trophy or prolonged successs.

The means to an end for ENIC is an unsatisfied player and a big transfer fee

As long as we then use that transfer fee to fund newer purchases then that's all good. Use the money well and you don't even necessarily miss the player who has left.

The idea should be to keep brining in young talent, try them out make a evaluation of who you think is going to make it, move on the ones who won't. At the same time there should always be a ready up and coming in your most prominent positions so that if you do decide to cash in the loss in overall performances in minimal and at the same time you then add quality in other areas you might be weaker in.

Now that's never been the way ENIC actually function but that's the stated aim and I believe the mo for Lange. So let's see how we go about it this time.

 

[metalgear]

Great though
He cost us £45m so we double our money and buy someone else
It’s the way to grow as a club
I’d rather be Dortmund than stubborn and arrogant
Much better model

i'd be tinkled because we had such a talent(s) and could not even feature in europe!

 

[metalgear]

Everything in the U.K. is incorporated. Even the justice systems and public services.

This does not look particularly complex for a big organisation with diversified income streams.

Anyone who can find evidence they have acquired and siphoned off land (what evidence is there?)needs to offset land they have acquired for the Northumberland Park Development which will provide revenue for the club.

We don’t necessarily have a problem with Daniel owning a decent percentage of the club but then paying himself millions to run the entire business without prioritising footballing success is what we object to.

What happens to the club when Lewis or Levy dies is an interesting idea. Will one of the other trust beneficiaries step straight into the dead man’s shoes or what? I guess this continuity is private but it is relevant to ongoing stability. Never heard this discussed either.

is there anything stopping thfc from restructuring the business so that the football club and sports facilities will be separate from the property business? a lower sticker price and a simpler toy might attract more oligarchs who don't think much of north london property

 

[Bedfordspurs]

i'd be tinkled because we had such a talent(s) and could not even feature in europe!

I’m more worried that his hamstrings have gone 3 of his last 4 seasons and he is awful in the air
I love the guy but if we double our money… off he goes

 

[Lilbaz]

is there anything stopping thfc from restructuring the business so that the football club and sports facilities will be separate from the property business? a lower sticker price and a simpler toy might attract more oligarchs who don't think much of north london property

It would mean @Batspur could say i told you so.

 

[metalgear]

I’m more worried that his hamstrings have gone 3 of his last 4 seasons and he is awful in the air
I love the guy but if we double our money… off he goes

true that but richy has to go first and now. give vdv another year to prove his hams

 

[Bedfordspurs]

is there anything stopping thfc from restructuring the business so that the football club and sports facilities will be separate from the property business? a lower sticker price and a simpler toy might attract more oligarchs who don't think much of north london property

As in?
The whole entity is the club
The property part is part of the club and feeds the club
The property isn’t worth that much
Maybe £200m and that’s a one off with costs etc…
The football side is a recurring revenue
People obsess with the property side and that’s my world. I just don’t get what people think is reality
“I’ve heard they have Siphoned off land and property”…. Well if they have it’s not through land registry
The club are paying and Tavistock will take the money.. that’s possible. We don’t know so an accusation without substantiation
The property the club won on top of the stadium and training round is all on borrowed money being paid for by club income and owned by the football club
The entity is then owned in the majority by ENIC
Levy owns a third of ENIC roughly and that’s about 25% of Tottenham Hotspur roughly again

 

[Bedfordspurs]

true that but richy has to go first and now. give vdv another year to prove his hams

Their hamstrings are literally like ham
Tasty in a sandwich but nut so good if you add pickle

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This and the fact that he frequently makes very poor decisions around the football side - whether that's his policy of playing managerial hopscotch, jumping from one random style of manager to the next, or failing to invest at the right time in the squad with players that managers actually want.

Do you think he is intentionally doing that?
He gains more if we’re more successful

 

[metalgear]

As in?
The whole entity is the club
The property part is part of the club and feeds the club
The property isn’t worth that much
Maybe £200m and that’s a one off with costs etc…
The football side is a recurring revenue
People obsess with the property side and that’s my world. I just don’t get what people think is reality
“I’ve heard they have Siphoned off land and property”…. Well if they have it’s not through land registry
The club are paying and Tavistock will take the money.. that’s possible. We don’t know so an accusation without substantiation
The property the club won on top of the stadium and training round is all on borrowed money being paid for by club income and owned by the football club
The entity is then owned in the majority by ENIC
Levy owns a third of ENIC roughly and that’s about 25% of Tottenham Hotspur roughly again

i don't think enic is taking money out of the club but they are using the club to invest in property to increase their equity.
the properties may not be worth much but the whole idea is regeneration of the area that will lead in greater capital appreciation
i am going to guess that these properties were purchased by thfc and loans of the purchase as well as development is borned by thfc - adding to interest payments.
my line of thinking is split the business, easier for to sell off the football side. Also non-football people to stay employed and do what they like and are good at. unfortunately this means levy has to peg his salary to the value of the remaining properties and not the performance of thfc (it was never about football results first anyway)

 

[Mikey10]

Do you think he is intentionally doing that?
He gains more if we’re more successful

It's worse if he's not as that would indicate that he's simply incompetent, in a footballing sense at least.

Most incompetent CEO's tend to be sacked sharpish.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

But ENIC have always been accused of putting money/business before success on the pitch. Of showing no ambition - just because you fail with Ndombele doesn't mean you don't try again. On this, the ENIC out phalanx have a very good point IMO.

The Enic model is what it is...there is no secret to it. Even less so now the stadium is finished and the debt re-financed.

And that model has its limitations (that we all know is money). That limits our 'ambition', when directly compared to City United and Chelsea.

They are not not trying again because of Ndombele...they are quite evidently trying a new approach. With the intention to find a way to do better within our limitations.

It's hard for us (in comparison) to swallow £60m failures, it has a long tail effect if that investment goes to zero. Similarly
we are probably hoping (praying) the £170m we've paid on Solanke Richie BJ at worst breaks even.

We can financially at least be in the ball park of Liverpool and Arsenal, so that gives hope that success can come (or at least be in touch), although we don't have the legacy prestige they have.

 

[Bishop]

I’m more worried that his hamstrings have gone 3 of his last 4 seasons and he is awful in the air
I love the guy but if we double our money… off he goes

Yes we should always be willing to sell any player if doing so suits our overall needs. VDV is a very good player but he's a little overrated by our fanbase. Hes far from the complete defender, so if a ridiculous bid were to come in, it would absolutely be in our interest to investigate such a bid and depending on the development of those following him (Phllips, Vusckovic, Dorrington etc) possibly even encourge the sale.

 

[Bishop]

Do you think he is intentionally doing that?
He gains more if we’re more successful

Is that gain worth the inherent financial risk necessary to gain it? I think we can say based on the historical evidence that in ENIC's view, it is not.

On the other point I don't think he does it on purpose, he just has no real football acumen and the risks he perceives make certain types of moves unattractive to ENIC, if there is no glaring need to rock the boat why do so?

 

[DeanoAustin]

The Enic model is what it is...there is no secret to it. Even less so now the stadium is finished and the debt re-financed.

And that model has its limitations (that we all know is money). That limits our 'ambition', when directly compared to City United and Chelsea.

They are not not trying again because of Ndombele...they are quite evidently trying a new approach. With the intention to find a way to do better within our limitations.

It's hard for us (in comparison) to swallow £60m failures, it has a long tail effect if that investment goes to zero. Similarly
we are probably hoping (praying) the £170m we've paid on Solanke Richie BJ at worst breaks even.

We can financially at least be in the ball park of Liverpool and Arsenal, so that gives hope that success can come (or at least be in touch), although we don't have the legacy prestige they have.

I think that's a fair summary. And, if you want Spurs to really be competitive in the transfer market, ENIC are never going to do that. Which sort of adds validity to the core of what the ENIC-Out people are arguing.

While I get what you're saying on Liverpool and Arsenal, will we ever back a manager the way Arsenal did with, say, Declan Rice? Will we ever back a manager like Liverpool did in 2018 with Alisson, Shaqiri, Keita, and Fabinho while VVD joined six months previously?

Irving Scholar said in his book (yeah, yeah I know) that he always felt "we are Tottenham Hotspur. We should be competing for top players". That's what led to him going for Gazza, Lineker and Paul Stewart. I know there are a lot of arguments against Scholar but when was the last time we showed any ambition like that?

 

[Bishop]

The Enic model is what it is...there is no secret to it. Even less so now the stadium is finished and the debt re-financed.

And that model has its limitations (that we all know is money). That limits our 'ambition', when directly compared to City United and Chelsea.

They are not not trying again because of Ndombele...they are quite evidently trying a new approach. With the intention to find a way to do better within our limitations.

It's hard for us (in comparison) to swallow £60m failures, it has a long tail effect if that investment goes to zero. Similarly
we are probably hoping (praying) the £170m we've paid on Solanke Richie BJ at worst breaks even.

We can financially at least be in the ball park of Liverpool and Arsenal, so that gives hope that success can come (or at least be in touch), although we don't have the legacy prestige they have.

Its not really legacy prestige that Liverpool and Arsenal have going for them, its a legacy of success and they have had a decent amount of that success in the last 25 years while we have been owned by ENIC. Again for me I do not believe a primary driving of ENIC's day to day Tottenham operations is an intention or burning desire to win the league. It would be nice sure, they wouldn't say no but its really not the only thing they plan for in terms of Tottenham.