ENIC

[DTA]

Qatar have admitted to hundreds of migrant workers dying in the building of the infrastructure for the World Cup. The real number may be higher.

This has surely been known about. They've not put in place sufficient measures to stop that. Hundreds of people died because of willful inaction and wilful action, they still worked to get new migrant workers knowing that hundreds more would die in the process.

If that doesn't qualify for the term "murderous" in your opinion, fine. But the term "needs improvement" is no better (though technically accurate). If anything "murderous" is more accurate, though one can make a pedantic point to the contrary. Manslaughterous a better term?

in 2020 there was a over a thousand deaths in construction in the US.

Qatar is the most progressive of the Gulf Arab countries, they have made genuine effort to modernise and when that happens we need to be supportive. I agree with @Lilbaz here Qatar are not Saudi and we need to look at our relationship with the Saudi’s before we start to point fingers

 

[DubSpur]

I was 7 and a half when ENIC took over Tottenham.

I'm now 29 and in that time we've only won one league cup when I was 14.

I want to see us win more! We certainly don't seem to be close under the current owners.

The perfect time for us to invest money was when we had Poch. Instead we didn't fork out cash for anyone for 2 seasons and only kicked into gear once Saudi Sportswashing Machine got brought over and Levy realised that all his hard work might go down the drain.

We all want to see us win more.

Under Poch we were in the middle of building a new stadium. They started spending money when the build was complete and it had nothing to do with Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

 

[DTA]

Is there a difference when the workers who take that risk get to benefit from the society they help improve? Or at least their kids get to benefit.

Compared to migrant workers who are sent out of the country at the end and kept in designated areas along the way.

ok that’s a fair point. But look what Germany were doing with their so called ‘guest workers’ until relatively recently.

 

[DubSpur]

Come on mate, read between the lines of what you have quoted

- They had no minimum wage, took away people's passports and made them require their employer to allow them to change jobs (can you fudging imagine) and required effectively an exit Visa to leave the country.

Translation -> you were a slave (I pay you whatever and you can't change jobs without my permission, nor can you leave the country) with zero rights, and this went on for decades.

I'm very glad if they are improving but comparing it to UK construction workers (or anything in the "west") is disingenuous to say the least

I don't think there's anyone comparing it to UK construction.

It's possible to acknowledge that they are making progress but still realise they have a long way to go.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Come on mate, read between the lines of what you have quoted

- They had no minimum wage, took away people's passports and made them require their employer to allow them to change jobs (can you fudging imagine) and required effectively an exit Visa to leave the country.

Translation -> you were a slave (I pay you whatever and you can't change jobs without my permission, nor can you leave the country) with zero rights, and this went on for decades.

I'm very glad if they are improving but comparing it to UK construction workers (or anything in the "west") is disingenuous to say the least

The UK also had all of these sorts of things in place until quite recently really when looking at our overall history.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Is there a difference when the workers who take that risk get to benefit from the society they help improve? Or at least their kids get to benefit.

Compared to migrant workers who are sent out of the country at the end and kept in designated areas along the way.

It’s massively different I agree

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think there's anyone comparing it to UK construction.

It's possible to acknowledge that they are making progress but still realise they have a long way to go.

It’s progressed from slave labour to modern slavery

 

[Baleforce]

But the way things are going half the league will be owned by states. Why would the bubble burst if the owners of the clubs are so ridiculously wealthy that there's zero incentive for them to ever sell?

The only thing that ever could have burst the bubble is the FFP rules. In the end they're barely enforced in reality because the governing bodies actually want the blood money. They just want to give the appdrance that they're doing something about it at the same time.

What’s the ROI, it’ll be short term for a lot of them, they will find something else to spend their money on.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The tourism industry in Dubai is a sideshow, though. Although it attracts a subset of the ultrawealthy/influencers each year, most regular folks want to travel to places with history, of which Dubai has none.

Dubai's real strategic play (well, the UAE's strategic play using Dubai as the vehicle) is to become the transshipment/nodal hub for the Middle East, the place to both route logistics and air traffic through and the place to conduct business deals in. It's why they group together travel and tourism when talking about the sector - tourism is a pleasant bonus, but the real money, influence and geopolitical safety is in becoming the Middle East's entrepot, and they have the infrastructure for it (Dubai Intl, Mina Jebel Ali managed by DP World, and so on).

The problem is, there is only room for one of those - and Doha has nowhere near the pull of Dubai in that regard, so the Qataris are starting off on the back foot. And no one wants to travel to Doha, not even for the tacky malls built with human blood and suffering that they can already see in Dubai.

When it comes to us, I'm honestly torn about the Qataris - would have preferred a more morally upright buyer, but those are impossibly rare in the billionaire class. What's more pertinent is that we simply cannot compete anymore with our model as it stands - ENIC commendably put in 100m of their own cash last summer, only to see City, United and Arsenal match/surpass it, Chelsea embark on a 300m+ spending spree and Saudi Sportswashing Machine climb above us with their pockets full of blood money.

The sharks now circling are too rich to fight off, so do we stick or twist - and what would it mean for Tottenham Hotspur if we got bought out by bloody-handed Middle Eastern royals? can't decide, tbh.

Three teams are still run via a 'normal' model.

Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd.

So if they can be successful so can we? Perhaps even they can't now?

We are only two years into our off the field set-up looking complete (sans naming rights), we're new to being a serious challenger, despite punching above our weight (thanks to Harry, Poch) long before we thought we'd be. But financially now, we should have clout.

Enough clout to keeps us relevant?
Undoubtedly this league is competitive. More than ever. This fact, is likely to make Levy even more risk averse. Even FSG and the Glaziers are thinking is this an investment worth continuing with?
The cost of gambling is being felt by numerous clubs. (Here and in Europe)
Arsenal have done the same. Their spending is unsustainable. It's only these last 18 games where it's looking like it may pay off. Their biggest credit is not what they have spent but sticking with the manager (who's still a dingdong btw). Would he have survived here?.

And the manager can be a big (the biggest?) differentiator imo. We've had Poch, the scousers Klopp and the goons think they're onto something with Arteta. One thing all those fans will tell is it's a beautiful journey. That is surely more important than the destination?. That then feeds into the question of how one feels about cheat code/blood money investments?

Primarily it's a personal question. Who are you? What kind of person you are?
Secondly it's about your relationship with the club. D'you want your club to sell it's soul, prostitute itself to the top? Fast track my emotional needs being met. Then feel a bit hollow? It might be 'if you can't beat them join them' BUT there's no going back if you do.

Personally I'd never ever want it. Life ain't easy but I still believe you can win things with a 'normal' model.

 

[Lilbaz]

What’s the ROI, it’ll be short term for a lot of them, they will find something else to spend their money on.

Dunno, they haven't got bored of horse racing. That's been what a thousand years now.

 

[Raziel]

Three teams are still run via a 'normal' model.

Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd.

So if they can be successful so can we? Perhaps even they can't now?

We are only two years into our off the field set-up looking complete (sans naming rights), we're new to being a serious challenger, despite punching above our weight (thanks to Harry, Poch) long before we thought we'd be. But financially now, we should have clout.

Enough clout to keeps us relevant?
Undoubtedly this league is competitive. More than ever. This fact, is likely to make Levy even more risk averse. Even FSG and the Glaziers are thinking is this an investment worth continuing with?
The cost of gambling is being felt by numerous clubs. (Here and in Europe)
Arsenal have done the same. Their spending is unsustainable. It's only these last 18 games where it's looking like it may pay off. Their biggest credit is not what they have spent but sticking with the manager (who's still a dingdong btw). Would he have survived here?.

And the manager can be a big (the biggest?) differentiator imo. We've had Poch, the scousers Klopp and the goons think they're onto something with Arteta. One thing all those fans will tell is it's a beautiful journey. That is surely more important than the destination?. That then feeds into the question of how one feels about cheat code/blood money investments?

Primarily it's a personal question. Who are you? What kind of person you are?
Secondly it's about your relationship with the club. D'you want your club to sell it's soul, prostitute itself to the top? Fast track my emotional needs being met. Then feel a bit hollow? It might be 'if you can't beat them join them' BUT there's no going back if you do.

Personally I'd never ever want it. Life ain't easy but I still believe you can win things with a 'normal' model.

The real problem is City, - 4 out of last 5 PL titles, - 5 of last 6 League Cups. The other clubs winning FA Cup (and City's failure in CL) has given the false impression the PL is competitive still, it isn't. If Saudi Sportswashing Machine follows City (and they have way more money), all the rest are done. Arsenal hasn't convinced me they are on anything but a "Leicester" run, United has highest net spend, total spend and wages in last decade and still unlikely to win anything in next 3-5 years. Pool is on the back end of it's best team in decades (for 6 years) and they have basically won 1 of each cup.

It's depressing and frustrating, I don't see anything for us other than the (with luck, good buys, good management) off chance at a cup every 4-5 years at best.

I agree it's a personal question, a lot of people simply prefer to ignore the moral question, and listen to what the media tells them, i.e. you can't enjoy football unless you win everything ..

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Three teams are still run via a 'normal' model.

Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd.

So if they can be successful so can we? Perhaps even they can't now?

We are only two years into our off the field set-up looking complete (sans naming rights), we're new to being a serious challenger, despite punching above our weight (thanks to Harry, Poch) long before we thought we'd be. But financially now, we should have clout.

Enough clout to keeps us relevant?
Undoubtedly this league is competitive. More than ever. This fact, is likely to make Levy even more risk averse. Even FSG and the Glaziers are thinking is this an investment worth continuing with?
The cost of gambling is being felt by numerous clubs. (Here and in Europe)
Arsenal have done the same. Their spending is unsustainable. It's only these last 18 games where it's looking like it may pay off. Their biggest credit is not what they have spent but sticking with the manager (who's still a dingdong btw). Would he have survived here?.

And the manager can be a big (the biggest?) differentiator imo. We've had Poch, the scousers Klopp and the goons think they're onto something with Arteta. One thing all those fans will tell is it's a beautiful journey. That is surely more important than the destination?. That then feeds into the question of how one feels about cheat code/blood money investments?

Primarily it's a personal question. Who are you? What kind of person you are?
Secondly it's about your relationship with the club. D'you want your club to sell it's soul, prostitute itself to the top? Fast track my emotional needs being met. Then feel a bit hollow? It might be 'if you can't beat them join them' BUT there's no going back if you do.

Personally I'd never ever want it. Life ain't easy but I still believe you can win things with a 'normal' model.

Are they successful?
Pool have been for sure but look to have blown that
United and arsenal have had minor cup wins, ones that we would have gladly take too but it’s not the league or CL which is what the best players wants and expect
Money talks and it’s rigged now
United could soon be debt free and that’s a game changer for them
City will keep on winning
Saudi Sportswashing Machine will catch up soon
It’s game over then

 

[Baleforce]

Dunno, they haven't got bored of horse racing. That's been what a thousand years now.

I think the differences in the sports are nuanced but important.

 

[glasgowspur]

The real problem is City, - 4 out of last 5 PL titles, - 5 of last 6 League Cups. The other clubs winning FA Cup (and City's failure in CL) has given the false impression the PL is competitive still, it isn't. If Saudi Sportswashing Machine follows City (and they have way more money), all the rest are done. Arsenal hasn't convinced me they are on anything but a "Leicester" run, United has highest net spend, total spend and wages in last decade and still unlikely to win anything in next 3-5 years. Pool is on the back end of it's best team in decades (for 6 years) and they have basically won 1 of each cup.

It's depressing and frustrating, I don't see anything for us other than the (with luck, good buys, good management) off chance at a cup every 4-5 years at best.

I agree it's a personal question, a lot of people simply prefer to ignore the moral question, and listen to what the media tells them, i.e. you can't enjoy football unless you win everything ..

And anyone wanting to compete with city is a long way back so will need big pockets a lot of time and luck.
Once the fans realise that city are so dominant will be the interesting part, will they drift away from viewing, that's where it gets interesting.

 

[Finney Is Back]

And anyone wanting to compete with city is a long way back so will need big pockets a lot of time and luck.
Once the fans realise that city are so dominant will be the interesting part, will they drift away from viewing, that's where it gets interesting.

At some point in the next 5(?) years Emirates Marketing Project will lose Guardiola. Their next manager appointment will determine whether they maintain their success or have a period of relatively little success while they continually search for the right man. That being said the things they have done one level down with their youth academy and scouting does protect them somewhat from that. Putting those sorts of structures in place are (relatively) cheap, that is why it frustrates the hell out of me that we have neglected that part of our club for several years now.

 

[DubSpur]

At some point in the next 5(?) years Emirates Marketing Project will lose Guardiola. Their next manager appointment will determine whether they maintain their success or have a period of relatively little success while they continually search for the right man. That being said the things they have done one level down with their youth academy and scouting does protect them somewhat from that. Putting those sorts of structures in place are (relatively) cheap, that is why it frustrates the hell out of me that we have neglected that part of our club for several years now.

Paratici has done a lot in the last 18 months on that front.

 

[Grays_1890]

They are trying to build up a tourist industry, just as dubai has and like saudi are trying with neom. They know gas isn't going to last forever (especially with climate change) and are buying foreign businesses so that they will have an income and influence when the taps are turned off.

Interestingly their tourism has dropped to lower levels than pre covid now the WC has ended which is a strange trend considering the WC advert and that is winter (peak middle east travel time)

 

[Jurgen the German]

The real problem is City, - 4 out of last 5 PL titles, - 5 of last 6 League Cups. The other clubs winning FA Cup (and City's failure in CL) has given the false impression the PL is competitive still, it isn't. If Saudi Sportswashing Machine follows City (and they have way more money), all the rest are done. Arsenal hasn't convinced me they are on anything but a "Leicester" run, United has highest net spend, total spend and wages in last decade and still unlikely to win anything in next 3-5 years. Pool is on the back end of it's best team in decades (for 6 years) and they have basically won 1 of each cup.

It's depressing and frustrating, I don't see anything for us other than the (with luck, good buys, good management) off chance at a cup every 4-5 years at best.

I agree it's a personal question, a lot of people simply prefer to ignore the moral question, and listen to what the media tells them, i.e. you can't enjoy football unless you win everything ..

I won’t ignore it. Obviously I would prefer we have owners who are moral but I want us to be successful ultimately. And I honestly don’t know how anyone can question any fan’s patience after more than 20 years with ENIC in charge. That’s a quarter of most people’s lives. If they had been in charge for 5 years then fair enough. But 22 years is more than enough time to make a judgement on them. Also think it’s personally reasonable to have gratitude for the work they have done but just think it’s time for a change. If we had the same PM for 20+ years a lot of people would rightly wonder if we could do better with someone else. Or if another person in charge could take us to the next level.

 

[AjaxDeSuperYids]

If Qatar joined the Abraham Accords that would be a big step forward.

 

[Raziel]

I won’t ignore it. Obviously I would prefer we have owners who are moral but I want us to be successful ultimately. And I honestly don’t know how anyone can question any fan’s patience after more than 20 years with ENIC in charge. That’s a quarter of most people’s lives. If they had been in charge for 5 years then fair enough. But 22 years is more than enough time to make a judgement on them. Also think it’s personally reasonable to have gratitude for the work they have done but just think it’s time for a change. If we had the same PM for 20+ years a lot of people would rightly wonder if we could do better with someone else. Or if another person in charge could take us to the next level.

That wasn't my comment, which was more focused on the wish for success meaning nothing else (the how) mattered. But to take it where you are

- If Spurs doesn't win anything in the next 20 years (regardless of ENIC/not), does that change how you view your connection with the club, if so, why different from the millions who support clubs that have zero chance of success ever?
- Yes, someone could have done better than ENIC, but alternatively no guarantees (vs. some who think anyone/everyone would have done better than ENIC)

To me, the game is broken and I struggle with the "hey, fudge it, lets just join the cheaters" or resign to just enjoy the fact that we follow a top club (we are), compete in Europe, and if we get the occasional final success, it's a bonus not an expectation.