ENIC

[Spursalot]

Why do you try to take things to extremes? Or do you just not read and skim posts so you can retort with something that you think makes you look amusing or clever?

As I said, big companies are creative and their books rarely tell the TRUE story but at the same time that doesn't mean they are doing anything illegal.

So I ask you why would the Board from a big company go to prison for being dishonest but not doing anything illegal?

Because it's illegal to be dishonest in your financial accounts. They are legal documents.


To extremes? You said they are not being honest in their accounts. If that was found to be true, their accreditation would be revoked and they would face jail time.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Because it's illegal to be dishonest in your financial accounts. They are legal documents.

It's not that black and white, but I don't have the time or inclination to give you a lesson in financial law. I wish it was as simple as you make out.

 

[Spursalot]

It's not that black and white, but I don't have the time or inclination to give you a lesson in financial law. I wish it was as simple as you make out.

It is actually very black and white.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It is actually very black and white. The law always is.

What about laws that are open to interpretation? Actually I don't even want to get into this debate with you. You're either a kid, or ignorant to financial law and either way debating this with you is going to achieve nothing and is completely off topic.

 

[braineclipse]

I have no idea, but I don't trust large organisations to be truthful and I don't blame them for that either because they have an obligation to their own financial success. As long as nothing illegal is being done I am cool with that.

I heard some time ago that we are in a lot more serious debt than people realise, but other people tell me that we are cash rich but that it's being set aside for the stadium. It's all pure speculation, but I also know that most successful enterprises are successful because they speculated to accumulate. I don't think we should go nuts, but if getting a player in two weeks earlier costs us an extra £1m, but also gives us the increased chance of Champion's League qualification then I'd back it once in a while. Right now, just once would be nice. I'm hoping that Levy has more faith in AVB than all the other Managers he hired.

This to me equals that you have no basis for your earlier statements. You're saying that the financial reports can't be trusted, but you offer no better source of information.

It's not all speculation, people that understand these things read the financial reports. That is a source of information much better than anything you've presented even if, for the sake of argument, I agreed that it wasn't entirely trustworthy.

Your memory seems short. Remember Vertonghen and Sig last summer? Signed early for sure. "Just once would be nice" - well, that's twice. So twice as nice then?

 

[Raziel]

Why do you try to take things to extremes? Or do you just not read and skim posts so you can retort with something that you think makes you look amusing or clever?

As I said, big companies are creative and their books rarely tell the TRUE story but at the same time that doesn't mean they are doing anything illegal.

So I ask you why would the Board from a big company go to prison for being dishonest but not doing anything illegal?

Dude, you are kinda of ignoring logic here

- Yes, companies will adjust/defer stuff to avoid paying taxes if they can, but couple of things here, in the case of Spurs, we are not a multinational company with lots of revenue streams, its probably a fairly simple (as 100M+ companies go) earnings statement, also outside of taxes, what would be the big motive?

- Football is not really a profit business, which is why to answer the earlier post of why Lewis wouldn't jus give us 200M, absolutely no proof he would get it back. Barcelona does not make a profit, 16-18 of the 20 PL teams don't make a profit, yet you think Spurs is raking it in?

 

[Spursalot]

This to me equals that you have no basis for your earlier statements. You're saying that the financial reports can't be trusted, but you offer no better source of information.

It's not all speculation, people that understand these things read the financial reports. That is a source of information much better than anything you've presented even if, for the sake of argument, I agreed that it wasn't entirely trustworthy.

Your memory seems short. Remember Vertonghen and Sig last summer? Signed early for sure. "Just once would be nice" - well, that's twice. So twice as nice then?

This. If you (Jumpers) are actually here to debate, then debate. All you have done is make sensationalist claims that come very close to libel.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

This to me equals that you have no basis for your earlier statements. You're saying that the financial reports can't be trusted, but you offer no better source of information.

It's not all speculation, people that understand these things read the financial reports. That is a source of information much better than anything you've presented even if, for the sake of argument, I agreed that it wasn't entirely trustworthy.

Your memory seems short. Remember Vertonghen and Sig last summer? Signed early for sure. "Just once would be nice" - well, that's twice. So twice as nice then?

No, I am stating that I don't know about Spurs. I know plenty about financial reports, and more importantly I know what goes on behind them.

As for your sarcastic comments regarding Vertonghen and Sigurdsson, when did we sign Lloris and Dempsey? I stick by my original thoughts. Just once I would like all our transfer dealings to be conducted before the first game of the season. Just once. I don't think that it's too much to ask.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Dude, you are kinda of ignoring logic here

- Yes, companies will adjust/defer stuff to avoid paying taxes if they can, but couple of things here, in the case of Spurs, we are not a multinational company with lots of revenue streams, its probably a fairly simple (as 100M+ companies go) earnings statement, also outside of taxes, what would be the big motive?

- Football is not really a profit business, which is why to answer the earlier post of why Lewis wouldn't jus give us 200M, absolutely no proof he would get it back. Barcelona does not make a profit, 16-18 of the 20 PL teams don't make a profit, yet you think Spurs is raking it in?

Pay less tax. We advise our multinational clients, including four Premiership clubs, on how to do this legally. I don't morally agree with it, especially when you look at Enron and Lehman Brothers and now when you look at the taxes Google, Amazon et al don't pay in the UK, but that's the reality of it.

 

[Spursalot]

Pay less tax. We advise our multinational clients, including four Premiership clubs, on how to do this legally. I don't morally agree with it, especially when you look at Enron and Lehman Brothers and now when you look at the taxes Google, Amazon et al don't pay in the UK, but that's the reality of it.

Tax avoidance is perfectly legal though. There is nothing dodgy there.


Enron is the worst case scenario when a government gets into bed with such a massive corporation. The American Financial legal system is completely different to the UK Financial legal system. They bear little resemblance to each other. It has very little to do with Spurs. Amusing considering your comments about me taking things to extremes, as Enron are the most extreme example of financial corruption that exists.


Mostly because in the US financial legal system they have laws, however when you encounter something that is not covered by these laws, you are allowed to do whatever the fudge you want. Whereas in the UK you are not.

 

[braineclipse]

No, I am stating that I don't know about Spurs. I know plenty about financial reports, and more importantly I know what goes on behind them.

As for your sarcastic comments regarding Vertonghen and Sigurdsson, when did we sign Lloris and Dempsey? I stick by my original thoughts. Just once I would like all our transfer dealings to be conducted before the first game of the season. Just once. I don't think that it's too much to ask.

Yet, despite not knowing anything about Spurs you claimed that we made some serious cash during our season in the CL that wasn't spent on the team. You have little to nothing backing up your claim other than some speculation that there might be something fishy going on with the financial reports. What you said was about Spurs specifically.

"I don't think we should go nuts, but if getting a player in two weeks earlier costs us an extra £1m, but also gives us the increased chance of Champion's League qualification then I'd back it once in a while. Right now, just once would be nice."

I don't see how I could have read this to mean that you wanted our entire transfer dealings to be conducted before the first game of the season. My comment wasn't sarcastic, I pointed out some cases last summer where we did sign players early. Seemed to me that this was what you were asking for.

 

[Whitehart]

my main issue as mentioned earlier is 1 cup in 13 years really isn't good enough, regardless of how much money hasn't or has been ploughed in

 

[spurs' magna carter]

my main issue as mentioned earlier is 1 cup in 13 years really isn't good enough, regardless of how much money hasn't or has been ploughed in

I agree with you completely, its all good finishing high in the league but in the world that we're aiming to a part of you're judged on how many trophies you've won and can win. This is way I feel Harry was sacked, the turning point for me personally was the end of 2010/11 season when he said "finishing 5th place in the league and reaching the Q/F of the CL is a fantastic achievement for a club like Tottenham" it made us look so small. AVB was hired because winning trophies is all he wants when he said "this isn't about restoring my reputation, this is about putting Tottenham back on track with titles" I felt like we could be what we really want to be, a trophy winning club.

 

[Raziel]

my main issue as mentioned earlier is 1 cup in 13 years really isn't good enough, regardless of how much money hasn't or has been ploughed in

Fair enough statement, we have been to a large number of QF/SF/Finals in that time, the team/manager hasn't managed to bring it across the line, not sure if that's purely a money play.

That said, it's unfortunate that the last decade has seen a monopolization of trophies in most of the major leagues by a very small group of clubs.

 

[lurker of old]

When we criticise ENIC for failing to invest further, we might think about badly run clubs. Take Coventry City who are planning to groundshare with Walsall or Birmingham, because the relationship with the Ricoh Arena's owners is so poor. Or Leeds. Or Portsmouth, Blackburn, etc etc.

Our complaint is that ENIC have "only" kept us in the top 4 or 5 for the last 5 years. Could have been worse though guys, could have been worse. Personally I would prioritise the FA Cup over the Europa League....surely every Spurs fan would want to see Spurs in the FA Cup final.....but it is all relative.

 

[spasm]

yes

 

[Superhudd]

Fair enough statement, we have been to a large number of QF/SF/Finals in that time, the team/manager hasn't managed to bring it across the line, not sure if that's purely a money play.

That said, it's unfortunate that the last decade has seen a monopolization of trophies in most of the major leagues by a very small group of clubs.

Sorry but what is this large number you speak of?

 

[AuroRaman]

What about laws that are open to interpretation? Actually I don't even want to get into this debate with you. You're either a kid, or ignorant to financial law and either way debating this with you is going to achieve nothing and is completely off topic.

Jumpers, this is the third time I've encountered a thread you have posted in where you have declared that you are not willing to debate a topic anymore, whenever your opinion has been challenged.

May I respectfully suggest that you don't engage in these types of discussions in the first place if you're not willing to have your opinions challenged. It's interesting as a reader to view most discussions on here, especially when there are two differing viewpoints.

It just feels like you're leaving and taking your football home with you all the time!

 

[Libero]

Sorry but what is this large number you speak of?

In fairness to the poster and the board, we have been to the latter stages of cups quite alot over the 12 years they have been in charge.

2001-2002: Worthington Cup Finalists (lost 1-2 v Blackburn), FA Cup Quarter Finalists (lost 0-4 v Chelsea)

2003-2004: Carling Cup Quarter Finalists - lost on pens v Middlesbrough

2004-2005: FA cup quarter finalists (lost 1-0 v Saudi Sportswashing Machine) and Carling cup quarter finalists (lost on pens v Liverpool)

2006-2007: Uefa Cup and FA cup quarter finalists (lost 4-3 v Sevilla and 1-2 v Chelsea), Carling Cup Semi Finalists (lost 5-3 on agg v Arsenal)

2007-2008: Carling Cup Winners (won 2-1 v Chelsea)

2008-2009: Carling Cup Finalists (lost on Pens v Man Utd)

2009-2010: FA Cup Semi Finalists (lost 0-2 v Portsmouth), Carling Cup quarter finalists (lost 2-0 v Man Utd)

2010-2011: Champions League Quarter Finalists (lost 0-5 on agg v R Madrid)

2011-2012: FA Cup Semi Finalists (Lost 1-5 v Chelsea)

2012-2013: Europa League Quarter Finalists (lost on pens v Basel)

That to me is a decent return of latter stages although certainly at least two of the semi finals in 2007 and 2010 should have resulted in a final appearance. Since 2006-07 we have managed to have at least one long cup run every season including the one that has just ended.

 

[Superhudd]

So say its

an average of 2 cup competitions for 7 years = 14
an average of 3 cup competitions for 6 years = 18

32 competitions.

And you give

9 Qtrs
3 Semi
2 Finalist
1 Winner

In my book.. that ain't no large number. Qtrs are the minimum we should be looking at, therefore I am pleased but underwhelmed by the 6 times we gained a semi or better.

Whats worse is nearly 50% of them are Carling Cup.. where other teams don't give a brick.