Daniel Levy - Chairman

[glorygloryeze]

Those are good questions and I imagine everyone has their conditions as to how that balance looks. It's that same old cliche where I think the club has done well off the pitch, but scored multiple own goals and missed opportunities for progress on the pitch and progress is literally the only thing I want, not even directly trophies (continued progress will eventually lead to success).

I give credit and appreciate the good work in terms of the current development of the club structure, this is absolutely a positive in my eyes, ie. the approach we have made with signings largely since Paratici joined etc but we have to admit that all the good work that is being done now is to repair the damage done previously.

My skepticism of ENIC goes a long way back, specifically back to the 10/11 season. Which is kind of long and boring and in the past now, but my real critique starts from that era as the model we have we have followed over the years has never really been the problem, it's the application of that model that has befuddle me and where the debate about 'not being a football man" has rung accurate for me.

So I don't so much argue for alternatives although the obvious ones exist, what I have always wanted was to follow our model and apply it well and and more boldly, for too many years I haven't felt that was the case.

Out of interest, what was this scepticism that goes back to the 2010/11 season borne out of? What happened then that made you sceptical?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Out of interest, what was this scepticism that goes back to the 2010/11 season borne out of? What happened then that made you sceptical?

I loved that season with those CL nights

 

[Bishop]

Out of interest, what was this scepticism that goes back to the 2010/11 season borne out of? What happened then that made you sceptical?

Hah, this is gonna open a can of worms. We had finally hit the holy grail (CL football) but the season before we had one really obvious problem. Our strikers were shi...Defoe had the season of his career scoring 16 in the first half of the year but then only getting 2! For the rest of the season, ( he was also unsuited to move to a solo striker that was happening at the time). Crouch just used to miss chance after flipping chance after chance, the usual rebuttal is he scored the goal Vs City to get get the CL place but if he wasn't so bloody useless in front of goal and could finish we wouldn't have needed to get to that match to qualify in the first place. Pav clearly wasn't rated by Harry so we were in desperate need for a striker.

If you remember that was the summer with all the speculation linking us with Forlan, black and yellow and a pre Napoli Cavani amongst others. We were desperate for a striker and the fact that we didn't do anything in the end was the point at which I realised that Levy was either incompetent or just didn't care because for me there was no way he could have watched the games that season and not realised we needed a bloody new striker and it confused me because all the talk up to that point was that reaching the CL was to be goal and the aim to take the club forward but instead of trying to progress and work off that foundation we instead just sat with what we had which was proven to not really be good enough.

Van De Vaart papered over the cracks but even that move was one precipitated by Real wanting rid and offering him to us on the last day of the window and he wasn't a bloody striker. It kind of just said to me that the people in charge were clueless and had no ambition because if ever there was a time keep developing that was it (before City became what they they are) and surprise, surprise the next season we didn't make it to CL and largely because our strikers weren't good enough. Crouch and Defoe got 4 goals each that season. 4! Flipping goals in team that made oodles of fudging chances.

Then we have the infamous 11/12 winter window when we had a serious chance at really challenging for the title but we needed some reinforcements and we got broken Saha and Nelson!

 

[glorygloryeze]

Hah, this is gonna open a can of worms. We had finally hit the holy grail (CL football) but the season before we had one really obvious problem. Our strikers were shi...Defoe had the season of his career scoring 16 in the first half of the year but then only getting 2! For the rest of the season, ( he was also unsuited to move to a solo striker that was happening at the time). Crouch just used to miss chance after flipping chance after chance, the usual rebuttal is he scored the goal Vs City to get get the CL place but if he wasn't so bloody useless in front of goal and could finish we wouldn't have needed to get to that match to qualify in the first place. Pav clearly wasn't rated by Harry so we were in desperate need for a striker.

If you remember that was the summer with all the speculation linking us with Forlan, black and yellow and a pre Napoli Cavani amongst others. We were desperate for a striker and the fact that we didn't do anything in the end was the point at which I realised that Levy was either incompetent or just didn't care because for me there was no way he could have watched the games that season and not realised we needed a bloody new striker and it confused me because all the talk up to that point was that reaching the CL was to be goal and the aim to take the club forward but instead of trying to progress and work off that foundation we instead just sat with what we had which was proven to not really be good enough.

Van De Vaart papered over the cracks but even that move was one precipitated by Real wanting rid and offering him to us on the last day of the window and he wasn't a bloody striker. It kind of just said to me that the people in charge were clueless and had no ambition because if ever there was a time keep developing that was it (before City became what they they are) and surprise, surprise the next season we didn't make it to CL and largely because our strikers weren't good enough. Crouch and Defoe got 4 goals each that season. 4! Flipping goals in team that made oodles of fudging chances.

Then we have the infamous 11/12 winter window when we had a serious chance at really challenging for the title but we needed some reinforcements and we got broken Saha and Nelson!

Yes, i remember all of that. I also remember that January of 2011 when there were all these stories of bids going in for the likes of Aguero and Cavani...it seemed like just half-hearted attempts to look ambitious (and that was because of the reports from Athletico saying that we didn't seem to be serious as to when we bid and how much we bid to get Aguero).

Oh man, that really is a can of worms, but one i also feel with you!!

 

[Muttley]

Hah, this is gonna open a can of worms. We had finally hit the holy grail (CL football) but the season before we had one really obvious problem. Our strikers were shi...Defoe had the season of his career scoring 16 in the first half of the year but then only getting 2! For the rest of the season, ( he was also unsuited to move to a solo striker that was happening at the time). Crouch just used to miss chance after flipping chance after chance, the usual rebuttal is he scored the goal Vs City to get get the CL place but if he wasn't so bloody useless in front of goal and could finish we wouldn't have needed to get to that match to qualify in the first place. Pav clearly wasn't rated by Harry so we were in desperate need for a striker.

If you remember that was the summer with all the speculation linking us with Forlan, black and yellow and a pre Napoli Cavani amongst others. We were desperate for a striker and the fact that we didn't do anything in the end was the point at which I realised that Levy was either incompetent or just didn't care because for me there was no way he could have watched the games that season and not realised we needed a bloody new striker and it confused me because all the talk up to that point was that reaching the CL was to be goal and the aim to take the club forward but instead of trying to progress and work off that foundation we instead just sat with what we had which was proven to not really be good enough.

Van De Vaart papered over the cracks but even that move was one precipitated by Real wanting rid and offering him to us on the last day of the window and he wasn't a bloody striker. It kind of just said to me that the people in charge were clueless and had no ambition because if ever there was a time keep developing that was it (before City became what they they are) and surprise, surprise the next season we didn't make it to CL and largely because our strikers weren't good enough. Crouch and Defoe got 4 goals each that season. 4! Flipping goals in team that made oodles of fudging chances.

Then we have the infamous 11/12 winter window when we had a serious chance at really challenging for the title but we needed some reinforcements and we got broken Saha and Nelson!

Yes, i remember all of that. I also remember that January of 2011 when there were all these stories of bids going in for the likes of Aguero and Cavani...it seemed like just half-hearted attempts to look ambitious (and that was because of the reports from Athletico saying that we didn't seem to be serious as to when we bid and how much we bid to get Aguero).

Oh man, that really is a can of worms, but one i also feel with you!!

So interesting that neither of you mention any of the words Harry, Redknapp, Daniel or Levy in your summary of that period.

The deep root causes of the issues you talk about were exactly those 4 words. In stockpile Harry we had a first team coach, not a manager. He was more junior than either rookies Jol and AVB, and just couldn't get his head around finally managing a BIG club. He stockpiled so many players and we had no manoeuvrability in the transfer market because of our sub-optimal football operations. Levy was in control of football ops and it was not his finest hour. It was so sub-optimal compared to what it could have been with some squad strategy and with way better judgments from our 2 leaders. The Steven Pienaar saga was just an absolute joke. The blind leading the blind.

There perhaps was a parallel universe where an Aguero would have joined Spurs. A universe where you don't start every summer with 35 senior pro's and have to sell in the last week of every transfer window just to add another average player. A universe where football operations allowed you to attract an Aguero, rather than ending up with your first team manager making snidey comments about his chairman and creating a narrative that he was the victim. That 's after taking up the wage bill by 35% and knowing that a lot of his highest paid players had no impact on his 1st team.

All hail King and Modric and a young Walker and Bale though. They deserved to play with Aguero and Cavani but were never going to under that leadership duo.

Thinking back to those incredibly frustrating times make me so thankful how far we have come.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Levy did surround himself with people with "football dna" arnesen, comoli, pleat, baldini, paratici, mitchel...

Some people seem to think he plays fifa or fm and picks players from that.

A couple of those he lost over money/control, another he sacked to take the heat off of himself.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Two men that had generational managers. Yes, they probably made a good decision to hire them as managers but what those managers achieved probably make many other decisions 'look' right.

And that's the rub. If you win trophies everything is pretty much alright.
There are plenty of 'football men' without trophies, as many as there are of those apparently without that 'dna'.

.

David Dein was a fantastic operator, he had great relationships across the board with the PL, FA and other clubs liked dealing with him. Had Spurs and Arsenal been swapped with Lasagna gate, I guarantee that Arsenal would have played that game on a later date.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Out of interest, why do you want new owners?

What is very clear in my mind, Levy has ridden this football money train brilliantly. His own wealth has transformed his £30m into a £1b based on our Sky subscriptions, season tickets, merchandise etc. There were huge periods of our club's history where that wasn't possible for a chairman.

The quid pro quo is that whilst Levy gets rich, we get the ultimate prize.....trophies. Daniel sits on both sides of that fence as he wants them as badly as we do.

I actually don't want him gone, but do want him upstairs rather than on the shop floor.

Does he? I’m not convinced, we’ve been well placed a few times but not really gone for it because their isn’t a massive financial benefit between 1st and 4th.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So interesting that neither of you mention any of the words Harry, Redknapp, Daniel or Levy in your summary of that period.

The deep root causes of the issues you talk about were exactly those 4 words. In stockpile Harry we had a first team coach, not a manager. He was more junior than either rookies Jol and AVB, and just couldn't get his head around finally managing a BIG club. He stockpiled so many players and we had no manoeuvrability in the transfer market because of our sub-optimal football operations. Levy was in control of football ops and it was not his finest hour. It was so sub-optimal compared to what it could have been with some squad strategy and with way better judgments from our 2 leaders. The Steven Pienaar saga was just an absolute joke. The blind leading the blind.

There perhaps was a parallel universe where an Aguero would have joined Spurs. A universe where you don't start every summer with 35 senior pro's and have to sell in the last week of every transfer window just to add another average player. A universe where football operations allowed you to attract an Aguero, rather than ending up with your first team manager making snidey comments about his chairman and creating a narrative that he was the victim. That 's after taking up the wage bill by 35% and knowing that a lot of his highest paid players had no impact on his 1st team.

All hail King and Modric and a young Walker and Bale though. They deserved to play with Aguero and Cavani but were never going to under that leadership duo.

Thinking back to those incredibly frustrating times make me so thankful how far we have come.

Redknapp was probably the only manager in ENICs time at Spurs who actually put together a squad that was deep enough to win the PL.

 

[Bishop]

So interesting that neither of you mention any of the words Harry, Redknapp, Daniel or Levy in your summary of that period.

The deep root causes of the issues you talk about were exactly those 4 words. In stockpile Harry we had a first team coach, not a manager. He was more junior than either rookies Jol and AVB, and just couldn't get his head around finally managing a BIG club. He stockpiled so many players and we had no manoeuvrability in the transfer market because of our sub-optimal football operations. Levy was in control of football ops and it was not his finest hour. It was so sub-optimal compared to what it could have been with some squad strategy and with way better judgments from our 2 leaders. The Steven Pienaar saga was just an absolute joke. The blind leading the blind.

There perhaps was a parallel universe where an Aguero would have joined Spurs. A universe where you don't start every summer with 35 senior pro's and have to sell in the last week of every transfer window just to add another average player. A universe where football operations allowed you to attract an Aguero, rather than ending up with your first team manager making snidey comments about his chairman and creating a narrative that he was the victim. That 's after taking up the wage bill by 35% and knowing that a lot of his highest paid players had no impact on his 1st team.

All hail King and Modric and a young Walker and Bale though. They deserved to play with Aguero and Cavani but were never going to under that leadership duo.

Thinking back to those incredibly frustrating times make me so thankful how far we have come.

Why would I criticise Harry? He said at the time he was not involved in the player negotiations. He told Levy who he wanted and didn't want and left him to it.

And honestly fudge all of that. If you watched that team in 09/10 we had one priority one. Next season we needed a striker. that should have been the first incoming and hell only incoming if needed. My beef is that Levy either couldn't see that, or just wasn't bothered about the team progressing on to the next level. What exactly was the pint of qualifying for the CL again?

 

[thfcsteff]

David Dein was a fantastic operator, he had great relationships across the board with the PL, FA and other clubs liked dealing with him. Had Spurs and Arsenal been swapped with Lasagna gate, I guarantee that Arsenal would have played that game on a later date.

100% this. All day.

 

[Bishop]

Two men that had generational managers. Yes, they probably made a good decision to hire them as managers but what those managers achieved probably make many other decisions 'look' right.

And that's the rub. If you win trophies everything is pretty much alright.
There are plenty of 'football men' without trophies, as many as there are of those apparently without that 'dna'.

.

Why did they hire them in the first place? Wenger especially was a virtual unknown on UK shores and foreign managers were basically unheard of at the time.

Why didn't Edwards fire Fergie in the 80s before he had even begun to build his dynasty unlike Levy who fired Poch despite the relative success he had provided despite being starved of incomings?

This is where the talk of a "football man" comes in. Dein scouted Wenger, looked at his previous records and hired the man because he believed rightfully that he would deliver. Edwards didn't fire Fergie because he saw potential and was aware of the inner turmoil he was rooting out at United.

When it was out turn Levy decided to sack the best coach he's had for yesterday's man who anyone with some boys could see was a busted flush after his time at first Chelsea and then United. Is this really someone we want to claim as any football sense?

It's not about what they've won. Monchi at Sevilla had gallons of football sense yet he never won La Liga. It's about the actions and decisions they made at key moments. Fergie not getting sacked as example as compared to Poch getting the boot and replaced with Jose Mourinho of all people. I don't think there was a coach less suited to our setup then that man oh wait there is. His name was Antonio Conte. You literally couldn't make it up.

 

[Lemonade Money]

David Dein was a fantastic operator, he had great relationships across the board with the PL, FA and other clubs liked dealing with him. Had Spurs and Arsenal been swapped with Lasagna gate, I guarantee that Arsenal would have played that game on a later date.

I doubt Dein would've poisoned his own team.

 

[DubSpur]

Why did they hire them in the first place? Wenger especially was a virtual unknown on UK shores and foreign managers were basically unheard of at the time.

Why didn't Edwards fire Fergie in the 80s before he had even begun to build his dynasty unlike Levy who fired Poch despite the relative success he had provided despite being starved of incomings?

This is where the talk of a "football man" comes in. Dein scouted Wenger, looked at his previous records and hired the man because he believed rightfully that he would deliver. Edwards didn't fire Fergie because he saw potential and was aware of the inner turmoil he was rooting out at United.

When it was out turn Levy decided to sack the best coach he's had for yesterday's man who anyone with some boys could see was a busted flush after his time at first Chelsea and then United. Is this really someone we want to claim as any football sense?

It's not about what they've won. Monchi at Sevilla had gallons of football sense yet he never won La Liga. It's about the actions and decisions they made at key moments. Fergie not getting sacked as example as compared to Poch getting the boot and replaced with Jose Mourinho of all people. I don't think there was a coach less suited to our setup then that man oh wait there is. His name was Antonio Conte. You literally couldn't make it up.

Fergie was reportedly very close to being sacked in 1990. If he had lost to Oldham in the semi final of the FA cup he was gone but Mark Robins scored late in injury time to win it. Luck plays it's part in football and Utd got lucky that day.

And it's a laugh to talk about Poch in the same sentence as Wenger, never mind Ferguson. He's done nothing since leaving us and didn't manage to get us over the line either.

 

[Bishop]

Fergie was reportedly very close to being sacked in 1990. If he had lost to Oldham in the semi final of the FA cup he was gone but Mark Robins scored late in injury time to win it. Luck plays it's part in football and Utd got lucky that day.

And it's a laugh to talk about Poch in the same sentence as Wenger, never mind Ferguson. He's done nothing since leaving us and didn't manage to get us over the line either.

@Grays_1890 see what I'm saying about Teflon?

But Fergie wasn't sacked was he? All the speculation and rumours in the world don't change the fact it didn't happen. When push came to shove and a decision could be made Edwards the football made the right decision.

With regards to Poch I'm not even claiming he shouldn't have been sacked, the issue is who he replaced him with. Jose at that point was a used flush it was so obvious. To the extent people on our fan base were arguing that what he needed to restart the fire was a lower level club than he was used to like us.

Again the point is the football man that Levy is couldn't see after his last disaster season at Chelsea and really his entire United spell that no this was not the man for us. Tactically he didn't suit the squad we had, character wise our players didn't suit him either. So rather than getting a coach of a similar mindset and tactical setup as Poch to reinvigorate the existing squad and continue the system we already had Levy couldn't see this and went for a polar opposite probably not realising how unsuited we were as a pairing. It was an awful decision on his part and one a football man would not have made and that's the point.

 

[DubSpur]

@Grays_1890 see what I'm saying about Teflon?

But Fergie wasn't sacked was he? All the speculation and rumours in the world don't change the fact it didn't happen. When push came to shove and a decision could be made Edwards the football made the right decision.

With regards to Poch I'm not even claiming he shouldn't have been sacked, the issue is who he replaced him with. Jose at that point was a used flush it was so obvious. To the extent people on our fan base were arguing that what he needed to restart the fire was a lower level club than he was used to like us.

Again the point is the football man that Levy is couldn't see after his last disaster season at Chelsea and really his entire United spell that no this was not the man for us. Tactically he didn't suit the squad we had, character wise our players didn't suit him either. So rather than getting a coach of a similar mindset and tactical setup as Poch to reinvigorate the existing squad and continue the system we already had Levy couldn't see this and went for a polar opposite probably not realising how unsuited we were as a pairing. It was an awful decision on his part and one a football man would not have made and that's the point.

Wtf has your teflon quote got to do with what was said? Where was Levy mentioned? Doing acrobatics there if you're going to try and twist what was said into anything to do with Levy.

 

[Bishop]

Wtf has your teflon quote got to do with what was said? Where was Levy mentioned? Doing acrobatics there if you're going to try and twist what was said into anything to do with Levy.

My post was about Levy, rather than addressing that you justified the decision Levy made. This is what I mean by some people not being able to look at him with balance.

 

[billyiddo]

David Dein was a fantastic operator, he had great relationships across the board with the PL, FA and other clubs liked dealing with him. Had Spurs and Arsenal been swapped with Lasagna gate, I guarantee that Arsenal would have played that game on a later date.

Iirc Dein was actually on the board of the FA during that period wasn't he? Which was probably no small part of the reason why our game wasn't delayed

 

[DubSpur]

My post was about Levy, rather than addressing that you justified the decision Levy made. This is what I mean by some people not being able to look at him with balance.

I didn't mention any decision that Levy made, I mentioned that Utd were lucky in that Fergie came very close to being sacked. One game was the difference. In football at times there are very close margins and luck one way or the other can influence things. Wtf has that got to do with Levy?

You were comparing Poch to Fergie and Wenger, which is laughable. Wtf has that got to do with Levy?

 

[Bishop]

I didn't mention any decision that Levy made, I mentioned that Utd were lucky in that Fergie came very close to being sacked. One game was the difference. In football at times there are very close margins and luck one way or the other can influence things. Wtf has that got to do with Levy?

You were comparing Poch to Fergie and Wenger, which is laughable. Wtf has that got to do with Levy?

I wasn't comparing them in terms of ability but comparing the decisions made by Dein, Edwards and Levy. Football men versus the business man.

If you want to deflect from the decisions Levy made cool, it's just demonstrates the imbalance of the analysis of Levy.