Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree with your Porto point. We are big because the league is watched around the world not because of actual achievements. We haven't won the PL nor the CL so for me we aren't bigger than teams that actually have and are limited by matters outside of their control like population size. I know we won't agree here on what constitutes a "big club" but wining big trophies HAS to be a big component, far more so than just finishing in the top 4.

Regarding the EL Sevilla won it when they knew they couldn't finish in the top 4, that does not suggest their league was easy. It suggests the opposite.

I don't know if I agree that winning the PL is harder than winning La Liga. It depends on the team and their circumstances. It's not easy to win La Liga for any team outside of Barcelona and Real Madrid and even for those two it isn't easy as they have fierce competition between themselves and for a time Athletico who of course also won it. We would be no closer to winning La Liga than we had been to winning the PL. So is the PL really harder? Leicester have won it, Liverpool are about to. If the breadth of winner suggests difficulty than surely the Bundesliga was tougher in 00s when the range of winners was bigger than the PL and La Liga or does it only apply when it happens in the PL?

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Sevilla didn’t compete in the league to save themselves for europa
They focussed on cups rather than the league
Was the range of winners in Germany bigger? I don’t know. I’d agree it’s more competitive that Spain though as you say
But IMO the prem is the hardest and it’s partly why it’s the most watched. More games, no breaks, more cups and teams than compete at all levels. And that was before the money impact
I agree winning trophies is the ultimate measure but freak seasons aside (the year they won CL) I don’t value the Portuguese league title or Europa very highly in the grand scheme of things as one is a weak league and the other has been massively devalued by its organisers

 

[Hootnow]

Because you and @Hootnow miss the point

- No one is fanboying our balance sheet, what people are appreciating is the club has been managed in a way that has allowed us to overcome a massive financial disparity that ENIC/Levy inherited, get good results and close that gap to where we have now passed the Scum and Chelsea fiscally for the first time in multiple decades. This is very important as a future indicator of our ability to meet those ambitions that you talk about (winning things).
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What point do you think I've missed exactly?

And I would strongly disagree with this point. Some of our fans, specially some of our fans on this board (I have never met anyone at the ground like this) fanboy our balance sheet. Hard.

They also fanboy things like attracting boxing matches or concerts to the stadium. Hard.

Seemingly not in a... Ah its cool we're gonna make a bit more money to put towards the football team (the main reason we do what we do) but in genuine pride at hosting these events.

 

[parklane1]

Or maybe they have been getting better value for money than we have?....

Here are the trophy hauls of the rest of the other members of the top six in the last decade:

Chelsea: 11 major trophies (3 x Premier League, 4 x FA Cup, 1 x League Cup, 1 x Champions League, 2 x Europa League)
Emirates Marketing Project: 10 major trophies (4 x Premier League, 2 x FA Cup, 4 x League Cup)
Man Utd: 6 major trophies (2 x Premier League, 1 x FA Cup, 2 x League Cup, 1 x Europa League)
Arsenal: 3 major trophies (3 x FA Cup)
Liverpool: 2 major trophies (1 x Champions League, 1 x League Cup)

What Pochettino did (taking a club with 6th biggest wage budget and what? 10th or 11th? highest net transfer spend to consistent top 4 finishes) is an obvious outlier in the premier league (and indeed any other big league in Europe). Throughout Europe there is a direct correlation between the clubs with the biggest wage bills and the clubs that win the trophies.

Hopefully now that our stadium build is out of the way we'll see our wage bill rise to the 'recommended' 55% level, which should help our manager (be that Jose or anyone else) to compete for the major trophies with the fellow big boys.

I think its a bit unfair and not compering like for like by including either City or Chelski as they have unlimited funds due to being finacialy doped, Utd have been for decades a rich club and still are. Its like compering apples to pears to try and push your point.

 

[glasgowspur]

The bigger club/league argument is silly, if for instance ajax, Porto or even either of the old firm who are all big clubs had access to the tv money the PL clubs had they could rival any team club with the possible exception of utd and Liverpool. English clubs are strong because of the sky money, end of.

The fact is they, the other clubs, are winning trophies against clubs on an even footing as themselves, and in the past when it was a more level playing field won trophies across the European tournaments.
Almost all of the trophies in England go to the same clubs, the doped ones. It's the same in every country, wealthiest win.
There is now an elite level of clubs, real Madrid, barca, Liverpool, utd, City, bayern. These clubs are a law unto themselves when it comes comes to money because they are not reliant on the same income streams as the rest.
Us, Chelsea, psg and juve are not trying to catch up but trying not to let the distance get any wider.
We can do that do that because of the vision of Levy. I don't agree with everything he does, I think he has made mistakes but we are what we are and where we are because of levy.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Its professional sport, every single metric goes down in history.

The discussion was on value for money pertaining to value of transfer fees.

I can't wait for that time in years to come when I get to tell my grandkids about the glory days of us having the best value for money squad in the Premier League....

"Oh Granddad, tell us that story again about how Levy squeezed the price on Lo Celso by £2 million by waiting for transfer deadline day, what a day that must've been, I wish that we were around to see it". It doesn't quite compare with my Granddad's tales of the double winning team I must say.

I think (and it was a while ago so I could be wrong) the discussion started with the suggestion that perhaps our players weren't so underpaid after all. Compared to all of the clubs below us (except Everton) that is indeed true. However compared the 5 clubs we are competing (badly) with for trophies that isn't true.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Oh and looking at player amortisation (as a proxy for transfer spending) also highlights how we’re playing catch-up with rest of Sky Six... they’ve literally spent £billions more than us!

View attachment 8203

Emirates Marketing Project: £981million (+£1,843million in wages = £2,824million)
Chavski: £936million (+£1,785million in wages = £2,721million)
ManUre: £789million (+£1,838million in wages = £2,627million)
Dippers: £486million (+£1,495million in wages = £1,981million)
ARSEnal: £465million (+£1,508million in wages = £1,973million)
Tottenham: £375million (+£920million in wages = £1,295million)

View attachment 8206

So the logical conclusion is that yes, compared to the other big clubs we do (or at least have been) underpaying?

 

[Hootnow]

The bigger club/league argument is silly, if for instance ajax, Porto or even either of the old firm who are all big clubs had access to the tv money the PL clubs had they could rival any team club with the possible exception of utd and Liverpool. English clubs are strong because of the sky money, end of.

The fact is they, the other clubs, are winning trophies against clubs on an even footing as themselves, and in the past when it was a more level playing field won trophies across the European tournaments.
Almost all of the trophies in England go to the same clubs, the doped ones. It's the same in every country, wealthiest win.
There is now an elite level of clubs, real Madrid, barca, Liverpool, utd, City, bayern. These clubs are a law unto themselves when it comes comes to money because they are not reliant on the same income streams as the rest.
Us, Chelsea, psg and juve are not trying to catch up but trying not to let the distance get any wider.
We can do that do that because of the vision of Levy. I don't agree with everything he does, I think he has made mistakes but we are what we are and where we are because of levy.

I think Liverpool (albeit they are obviously on a different level to ourselves in terms of commercial links and history/size etc) are not in that group by money.

They should actually be our model because I think even the most blinkered anti-Liverpool fan can attest to the fact that the work Klopp has done and the recruitment team over the past 3-4 seasons, has put them where they are now and has been incredible.

Liverpool are only 3rd in the league in terms of revenue and 7th in Europe (and this after 2 runs to the CL final) and yet look to be putting together the most dominant league campaign in history and I wouldn't bet against them reaching another CL final. That isn't because of some inherent financial advantage, their wage bill is less than the 2 Manchester clubs and Chelsea too I believe.

I wonder if their fans are gearing up for the best value for money spend parade yet.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So the logical conclusion is that yes, compared to the other big clubs we do (or at least have been) underpaying?

How do you compare over paying vs under paying?
I’d argue strongly that a club that chooses to pay someone £350k a week whereas another chooses to split the same money over 4/5 players may be getting value. The key or is the illusion that in football you get at you pay for which of course is delusional
True incentive based contracts are the way I see the market myself and that will see a change over time to the model we operate under more and more

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think Liverpool (albeit they are obviously on a different level to ourselves in terms of commercial links and history/size etc) are not in that group by money.

They should actually be our model because I think even the most blinkered anti-Liverpool fan can attest to the fact that the work Klopp has done and the recruitment team over the past 3-4 seasons, has put them where they are now and has been incredible.

Liverpool are only 3rd in the league in terms of revenue and 7th in Europe (and this after 2 runs to the CL final) and yet look to be putting together the most dominant league campaign in history and I wouldn't bet against them reaching another CL final. That isn't because of some inherent financial advantage, their wage bill is less than the 2 Manchester clubs and Chelsea too I believe.

I wonder if their fans are gearing up for the best value for money spend parade yet.

cant argue with that but don’t forget they have adapted their model and also had an element of luck with signings (you need that luck). The key will be is can they sustain the levels as only a year ago it was City who were going to dominate the world.

 

[Baleforce]

I can't wait for that time in years to come when I get to tell my grandkids about the glory days of us having the best value for money squad in the Premier League....

"Oh Granddad, tell us that story again about how Levy squeezed the price on Lo Celso by £2 million by waiting for transfer deadline day, what a day that must've been, I wish that we were around to see it". It doesn't quite compare with my Granddad's tales of the double winning team I must say.

I think (and it was a while ago so I could be wrong) the discussion started with the suggestion that perhaps our players weren't so underpaid after all. Compared to all of the clubs below us (except Everton) that is indeed true. However compared the 5 clubs we are competing (badly) with for trophies that isn't true.

so United paying 350/400k a week to Sanchez and Pogba, for example, has been worth it?

 

[Hootnow]

How do you compare over paying vs under paying?
I’d argue strongly that a club that chooses to pay someone £350k a week whereas another chooses to split the same money over 4/5 players may be getting value. The key or is the illusion that in football you get at you pay for which of course is delusional
True incentive based contracts are the way I see the market myself and that will see a change over time to the model we operate under more and more

I think you can only compare it to the situation around you. Compared to the other members of the top 6, we are underpaying. Compared to almost the entirety of the rest of the world, we are not, we're overpaying.

I think there will have to be a bit of an attitude change in Spurs fans over the next few years. I've still seen disparaging remarks about the 'sky 4' or people talking about how rich clubs will be looking to do business in the future, as if we weren't a part of that conversation.

The reality is that we are now part of the elite Sky 6. The other 14 clubs and their fans note that. The reality is that there are only 7 clubs in the world. WORLD. With more revenue than us. That may fluctuate a bit with CL runs etc but we probably won't drop too far out of the top 10 even at the worst of times. Our fans need to stop seeing us as little old paupers. To most clubs in Europe, we are now a financial powerhouse.

Frankly, as long as the club is still running and not doing a Leeds (ie almost all clubs), I couldn't really care that much about £ spent per position or better value for money. I want to see my team win games and trophies. I want to see our club having iconic moments I and the rest of our fans will remember for life. Not the time we finished 5th but actually only had the 8th highest wage bill and the 10th highest net spend so pound for pound had the most efficient league placing.

I think I've mentioned before that it probably comes across as me being far more anti-Levy than I actually am on this board, purely because the prevailing wind of opinion on here is so set on one direction. If you asked me, I would say Levy is one of the best chairmen in the league and the work he's done for the club has been incredible.

Probably peoples' expectations are converging though, regardless of which side they fall on. I think most people are saying that now we've finished all of the major infrastructure projects, know where we are financially etc, we can start to unleash some of this financial power we've been building towards for years. That we can now prioritise the footballing side sometimes, rather than always the business side. If in 5 years time we're still operating in a similar way...I'd have a few more questions to be honest.

 

[Raziel]

Probably peoples' expectations are converging though, regardless of which side they fall on. I think most people are saying that now we've finished all of the major infrastructure projects, know where we are financially etc, we can start to unleash some of this financial power we've been building towards for years. That we can now prioritise the footballing side sometimes, rather than always the business side. If in 5 years time we're still operating in a similar way...I'd have a few more questions to be honest.

This .. at least for me, I'm not interested in the revise history argument (if we had paid more wages, bought one more player, whatever).

I don't think we need 5 years, I think we need 3-4 transfer windows, I said it before, Levy has done the setup work to get us to the financial level to have a real shot (not rely completely on luck and over-performance), now his job is to give us that shot.

And that is what he should be measured on, not what we didn't do when we were significantly behind every other top 6 club in revenue with the pressure of also having a major infrastructure project

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think you can only compare it to the situation around you. Compared to the other members of the top 6, we are underpaying. Compared to almost the entirety of the rest of the world, we are not, we're overpaying.

I think there will have to be a bit of an attitude change in Spurs fans over the next few years. I've still seen disparaging remarks about the 'sky 4' or people talking about how rich clubs will be looking to do business in the future, as if we weren't a part of that conversation.

The reality is that we are now part of the elite Sky 6. The other 14 clubs and their fans note that. The reality is that there are only 7 clubs in the world. WORLD. With more revenue than us. That may fluctuate a bit with CL runs etc but we probably won't drop too far out of the top 10 even at the worst of times. Our fans need to stop seeing us as little old paupers. To most clubs in Europe, we are now a financial powerhouse.

Frankly, as long as the club is still running and not doing a Leeds (ie almost all clubs), I couldn't really care that much about £ spent per position or better value for money. I want to see my team win games and trophies. I want to see our club having iconic moments I and the rest of our fans will remember for life. Not the time we finished 5th but actually only had the 8th highest wage bill and the 10th highest net spend so pound for pound had the most efficient league placing.

I think I've mentioned before that it probably comes across as me being far more anti-Levy than I actually am on this board, purely because the prevailing wind of opinion on here is so set on one direction. If you asked me, I would say Levy is one of the best chairmen in the league and the work he's done for the club has been incredible.

Probably peoples' expectations are converging though, regardless of which side they fall on. I think most people are saying that now we've finished all of the major infrastructure projects, know where we are financially etc, we can start to unleash some of this financial power we've been building towards for years. That we can now prioritise the footballing side sometimes, rather than always the business side. If in 5 years time we're still operating in a similar way...I'd have a few more questions to be honest.

I don’t think fans care what we pay players in reality. Why should we?

Here’s an analogy

I don’t care what the guy who fixes my car gets paid... I just care about my bill and that’s it’s done right to the best their abilities

If VW make a commercial decision to pay less than say BMW and this guy is happy with that then good luck to them. And if VW see a new supper engineer out there that will cost more but will give them a better offer they may choose to pay him more to get him in...

similarly if BMW choose to a pay a lazy German engineer with really large eyes something like 3 times the normal salary for a player of his effort and delivery then that’s their choice too. It may mean people stop going to that garage

It’s in every clubs interest to pay less if they can. Emirates Marketing Project didn’t buy Maguire as the deal wasn’t right for them financially. This is city who have burned money to date but their model is about getting their house in order aligned to their financially fudged model

a side like United which is less attractive now has to offer more as they can’t offer a pep, or a trophy cabinet as well as the £££

 

[Finney Is Back]

How do you compare over paying vs under paying?
I’d argue strongly that a club that chooses to pay someone £350k a week whereas another chooses to split the same money over 4/5 players may be getting value. The key or is the illusion that in football you get at you pay for which of course is delusional
True incentive based contracts are the way I see the market myself and that will see a change over time to the model we operate under more and more

The 5 clubs who pay more than us won 32 major trophies between them in the last decade. Over 6 times more than the other 100 odd professional clubs in England combined.

Would they have won those trophies without having their level of wage and transfer spend? Probably not I'd say.

If we had been able to push the boat out and operate a wage bill 50% bigger then would it have got us over the line in the semis and finals that we have played? That one is more arguable but I would suggest that it certainly wouldn't have hurt, at least in having a deeper squad and fresher players towards the end of the season when the trophies are really contested.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This .. at least for me, I'm not interested in the revise history argument (if we had paid more wages, bought one more player, whatever).

I don't think we need 5 years, I think we need 3-4 transfer windows, I said it before, Levy has done the setup work to get us to the financial level to have a real shot (not rely completely on luck and over-performance), now his job is to give us that shot.

And that is what he should be measured on, not what we didn't do when we were significantly behind every other top 6 club in revenue with the pressure of also having a major infrastructure project

I agree
In 2 windows we have readjusted the squads age profile significantly and also arguably the value of the squad hasn’t been negated with the 6 new bodies
There aren’t excuses anymore in not suitably investing and I believe we’re on the right path for that

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The 5 clubs who pay more than us won 32 major trophies between them in the last decade. Over 6 times more than every other club in England combined. Would they have won those trophies without having their level of wage and transfer spend? Probably not I'd say. If we had been able to push the boat out and operate a wage bill 50% bigger then would it have got us over the line in the semis and finals that we have played? That one is more arguable but I would suggest that it certainly wouldn't have hurt, at least in having a deeper squad and fresher players towards the end of the season when the trophies are really contested.

But whose to say they wouldn’t have won those trophies still and that we wouldn’t now be financially stable to viable and could have done a Leeds???

It’s all guess work

What we do know now is that the club is on its strongest financial footing ever so there is no excuse not to spend

 

[Hootnow]

This .. at least for me, I'm not interested in the revise history argument (if we had paid more wages, bought one more player, whatever).

I don't think we need 5 years, I think we need 3-4 transfer windows, I said it before, Levy has done the setup work to get us to the financial level to have a real shot (not rely completely on luck and over-performance), now his job is to give us that shot.

And that is what he should be measured on, not what we didn't do when we were significantly behind every other top 6 club in revenue with the pressure of also having a major infrastructure project

And it is a view I mostly agree with. As I've said before I think, my only gripes (while appreciating I don't have all the information necessarily) are the Saha/Nelson window, the year of no transfers and a feeling that sometimes it is ok to pay a little more to get a player in earlier for a proper pre-season. Otherwise I don't think Levy is some kind of money hoarder or ass.

For all of our sakes, I hope nothing similar is repeated in the future and we can move forward, make good investments and win some trophies!

 

[glasgowspur]

I think Liverpool (albeit they are obviously on a different level to ourselves in terms of commercial links and history/size etc) are not in that group by money.

They should actually be our model because I think even the most blinkered anti-Liverpool fan can attest to the fact that the work Klopp has done and the recruitment team over the past 3-4 seasons, has put them where they are now and has been incredible.

Liverpool are only 3rd in the league in terms of revenue and 7th in Europe (and this after 2 runs to the CL final) and yet look to be putting together the most dominant league campaign in history and I wouldn't bet against them reaching another CL final. That isn't because of some inherent financial advantage, their wage bill is less than the 2 Manchester clubs and Chelsea too I believe.

I wonder if their fans are gearing up for the best value for money spend parade yet.

Liverpool are an interesting one, their worldwide fanbase is as good as almost anyone's, but it would seem like they haven't properly tapped in to it. I would expect this to change now they are having sucess on the field.
From what I can see their low wage bill is down to some shrewd signings but also a fairly small squad. Utd, City and Chelsea pay big wages for second and third choice players. Stones at City is probably on as much as some Liverpool first team regulars. Sanchez at utd would be Liverpool top earner I think, and by quite a distance.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don’t think fans care what we pay players in reality. Why should we?

Here’s an analogy

I don’t care what the guy who fixes my car gets paid... I just care about my bill and that’s it’s done right to the best their abilities

If VW make a commercial decision to pay less than say BMW and this guy is happy with that then good luck to them. And if VW see a new supper engineer out there that will cost more but will give them a better offer they may choose to pay him more to get him in...

similarly if BMW choose to a pay a lazy German engineer with really large eyes something like 3 times the normal salary for a player of his effort and delivery then that’s their choice too. It may mean people stop going to that garage

It’s in every clubs interest to pay less if they can. Emirates Marketing Project didn’t buy Maguire as the deal wasn’t right for them financially. This is city who have burned money to date but their model is about getting their house in order aligned to their financially fudged model

a side like United which is less attractive now has to offer more as they can’t offer a pep, or a trophy cabinet as well as the £££

Instead of thinking about your ordinary run of the mill car, consider instead a formula one team. Who has the biggest budget and pays their engineers most? Mercedes.... and who wins all of the titles? Mercedes. Their challengers are the couple of teams with the next biggest budgets.

In every capitalist industry the best talent gets paid the biggest money and the biggest payers therefore attract the best talent. Yes some of the employees are not worth their salary, but overall the talent pool is higher and the results reflect that.

It is why in every league in Europe the few clubs with the biggest budgets win all the trophies.

 

[Finney Is Back]

But whose to say they wouldn’t have won those trophies still and that we wouldn’t now be financially stable to viable and could have done a Leeds???

It’s all guess work

What we do know now is that the club is on its strongest financial footing ever so there is no excuse not to spend

You think Liverpool wouldve won the CL last year and PL this year without pushing the boat out for all of Allison, VVD, Mane and Wjnaldum?