Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
This.
-
Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara
Carrick - Would he get in ahead of Dembele, Sandro?
- Thread starter yiddo2786
- Start date
This.
King of Norway
Gudni Bergsson
As much as I like both Sandro and Dembele, I do think we lack a playmaker in midfield. We don't have a player who demands the ball when we build attacks from the back, and we don't have anyone with the vision and passing ability to do somethign creative with the ball when they get it in the middle of the park. Sandro/Parker/Dembele all hide when we are in possession at times, and none of them are passers. Carrick would fill that role perfectly. I thought he was excellent and hugely important during his spell at Spurs.
He is also underrated as a defender. He positions himself well and covers the right areas. He doesn't chase around the pitch head under arm, but he is clever.
He is also underrated as a defender. He positions himself well and covers the right areas. He doesn't chase around the pitch head under arm, but he is clever.
King of Norway
Gudni Bergsson
I thought he was sa joy to watch when he played for us. Pure elegance. He is actually one of the players I have enjoyed watching the most in a Spurs-shirt.
:special:
AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
Yup, always happy to see him in action at The Lane. There's definitely a very strong case in the 'we would be CL regulars with him still in the side' argument.
Come on Billy... don't sit on the fence tell us what you really think
Mulletperm
Mauricio Taricco
:-s
DeanoAustin
Jimmy McCormick
I'd have Carrick back in a heartbeat. His positioning is that good he doesn't need to be charging into tackles like a lunatic. He breaks up play without people noticing.
His passing is sublime too. I'd have him over both Sandro and Dembele right now albeit both have time on their side to get even better.
His passing is sublime too. I'd have him over both Sandro and Dembele right now albeit both have time on their side to get even better.
Klinsmania
Bobby Zamora
I'd take Carrick over Dembele. At the start of the season Dembele was excellent for us, but he hasn't been producing the goods (IMO) over the last few months, so on current form I would pick Carrick.
Wow, Carrick is the new Kanoute, vastly overrated post Spurs player
No idea what form he is in this season (don't watch Red Scum play, when I do their results always seem better than their play), but have most folks forgotten the last 2 - 3 years, where he has been terrible?
Would not have traded Modric for him, would not trade Sandro for him, and he's a c@*t
No idea what form he is in this season (don't watch Red Scum play, when I do their results always seem better than their play), but have most folks forgotten the last 2 - 3 years, where he has been terrible?
Would not have traded Modric for him, would not trade Sandro for him, and he's a c@*t
Nonsense, everyone was rueful of the fact he left Spurs and so it proved as we missed him.
Why is he a c@nt? Because he chose to go to the best team in England?!
Have you ever seen an interview with the prick? always has some brick to say about Spurs.
Amazes me how Spurs fans pick their spacegoats, all the hate here for Keane, Berbatov, Modric, who were all very good player pre Spurs and generally have acknowledged us post Spurs.
Carrick who nobody was willing to take a chance on (looked like he was going to stay in the championship), who we chose to build our side around at the expense of a vastly more experienced player (Mendes), fudges off at first opportunity, never really fulfills his potential, but still has nothing but brick to say about us (I can recall several pre Manure games with him in the press talking about Spurs loser mentality), has had a brick couple of years, back in form at what 31? and people want him? wtf ...
Are we talking role or position here?
IMO he plays Dembele's role in Sandro's position - deeper-lying but more offensive than a destroyer. We'd probably have to replace both midfielders to fit him in.
Carrick & Modric = CL I think.
Moussa is quality. I wouldn't want Carrick back in place of him. I have convinced myself.
[video=youtube;RRNCJkqY_Jg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RRNCJkqY_Jg#![/video]
Surely most people would prefer Modric over Carrick?!
Robbo
Paul Walsh
Why we sold Carrick is a mystery, especially when he reportedly wasn't begging to move. He still had two years left on his contract as well, if I'm not mistaken. He was a great player for us, very vital to our play.
Just imagine a midfield of him, Modric and Sandro, with Bale and Lennon on the wings and Berbatov up front. We'd be title contenders for sure.
Just imagine a midfield of him, Modric and Sandro, with Bale and Lennon on the wings and Berbatov up front. We'd be title contenders for sure.
18.6m back then.
A midfield with Carrick, Modric and Sandro doesn't work. Lacks goals... Bale would make up for some lost goals, but you're wasting the number 10 position if you play Modric there. You'll have 3 holding midfielders, so you'll have to play a 4-3-3 and that doesn't work for Bale and Lennon.... Put Modric on the left in a 4 man midfield and he's not as effective... Doesn't fit.
-------------
Strange. He has done plenty of sublime passes.
By that logic though, watching Barca play one-twos around and entire team is not entertaining? Yet many feel they are the most entertaining team in the world.
I still can't quite wrap my head around what you just said.
For the record, football is about winning, not entertainment. If a winning team is an entertaining team great, if a winning team felt the need to give away last minute corners to add to the drama, they'd be stupid as well as entertaining.
Crunching tackles are now called "fouls", even if you mean the beautiful sliding tackles Sandro does where he does not touch players and there is no "crunch", that is not something that can be done often. The primary way of winning the ball back changed a number of years ago from tackling to interceptions. Tackling still exists, but it is very rarely highlight reel worthy.
I have to disagree with you about "nothing memorable in his career" too...
Overall I think we both have extreme differences of opinion when it comes to how football works. I think a team does whatever it has to in order to win games, you seem to think it's a game of horse.
Did Modric make sublime passes or were his tackles crunchy enough for him to be considered good? I'm really interested in what makes a sublime pass for you... If you look at the current Spain side, how many of those players do you rate?
----------------------
On to the actual topic.
The problem comes from the style of team and the value whoever picks the team places on Carrick.
Some of you guys would put Carrick in your PL XI, some wouldn't.
The biggest issue I have with guys saying they'd swap Dembele or someone for Carrick is his age rather than anything else. He's going to be 32 in the summer. Regardless of a player's ability, that's pretty old to swap one of our 15m 25ish year olds for.
If it's a case of just picking a side for a game tomorrow, then that's one thing but it's too late to put him in a side, build a side around him and plan for the future around him.
Man United paid 18.6m for him around 2006, in today's money that's probably more than Real Madrid paid us for Modric. (The added English player tax would have been more now too as the squad size rules are in place now.)
Personally I wouldn't put him in the team ahead of Sandro because I like my DM to be a proper destroyer rather than a passing DM. (Romeu and other passing DMs haven't really taken off.) Carrick has some versatility though. Playing him in the midfield with Sandro isn't like playing two pure destroyers that can't do anything on the ball, so Carrick can be played as a deep lying creative midfielder as Scholes is played. It'd be a solid midfielder, Alonso isn't a real DM but has better defensive stats than Carrick, he shows the potential both defensively and offensively with a midfield duo like that. Busquets and Alonso for Spain also have that sort of thing going.
The thing that gets me though is Dembele was an AM we converted to a deep lying midfielder... He has better defensive stats than Carrick. So surely this just highlights the option Man United had to play a destroyer DM (Jones works, they haven't wanted to buy one), they could move Carrick into the position Scholes plays for them. They bought Kagawa which is basically a player that has good ball control and good passing... Ignoring Asian shirt sales and so on, why would they do that?
Kagawa is basically an AM version of Carrick. He is more mobile but that's it. Kagawa has spent his career sitting on deep lying midfielders so he isn't useless defensively. If you want a guy to sit on Pirlo, Modric, Alonso, Scholes, etc, he's your guy. Did United buy Kagawa because Carrick wasn't mobile enough to play CM with a proper DM or did United feel Jones could play DM when they needed one and as a result they could use Carrick against weaker teams?
Against Spurs, Everton and Real Madrid Jones played. Is Carrick even capable of playing DM on his own against good teams?
In an ideal world, I'd probably play Sandro, Carrick and Dembele. But that midfield wouldn't score enough goals. I don't think I'd put Carrick into our current team, he'd be nice to help us launch counter attacks but if a team parks the bus, Dembele dribbling past people vs Carrick trying to pass beyond people would be debatable.
I would take VDV over Carrick at the moment. We would have amazing passing, goals, etc.... Carrick's defensive qualities aren't what we need right now and Carrick's creative qualities are limited compared to everyone else 4 assists (in 24 games) and an average of one key pass a game for Carrick. 3 assists (in 17 games) for Dembele and 2.1 key passes per match. (Also remember, his passes go to Defoe or Ade rather than RVP.) Even Sandro has 1 key pass a game.
I think Holtby could perform alongside Sandro and give a blend of Parker's crazy closing down and Carrick's passing.
Don't get me wrong, despite all of this, I think Carrick has played very well this year and is key to Man United. I just think Sandro and Dembele have been key to us. I even think Carrick is a good shout for a PL XI, just not my shout.
As for if Carrick gets into any side in the league... I've just gone over us.
But the rest.
United - obviously.
City - Better than Barry or Garcia. So yes. Mancini is crazy though, I'm sure he'd play Carrick anyway.
Chelsea - They rotate, so sometimes... Whether he'd get into their best 11 is debatable. They use 2 holding midfielders though, so he could play in there depending what they needed. (He might fit them pretty well. Being able to find Mata or Hazard would be good, but they need Lampard's goals at the moment.) I think he'd probably get in. Rafa would probably appreciate Carrick's defensive qualities and could start him to keep games tight and bring on Lampard if they need a penalty taker.
Us - Judgment call. He'd probably get subbed on for 30 minutes each game.
Arsenal - Wenger uses Arteta for this. I don't think he'd change to Carrick.
Everton - I don't think he'd play DM. Moyes would want Neville to stay DM. He might replace Osman but Osman is good on the ball, hard working off the ball and will go box to box. If Everton did just go with a 4-2-3-1 and were ok with using Carrick defensively, maybe... But Carrick doesn't fit into this side that well.
Liverpool - They tried this with Joe Allen. Brendon Rodgers loves Joe Allen. Lucus is a very very very good DM, Gerrard is undroppable. I don't know how this would work. Early on Brendon Rodgers would have loved to put a passer alongside Lucus and Gerrard, but with Sturridge and Suarez I think he's just going to use Lucus and Gerrard, so no place for Carrick in their current system. (I think that'd kill Rodgers a bit though, he'd probably try to put Suarez and Allen out on the wings, Gerrard behind Sturridge and play Carrick with Lucus.)
Swansea - He is an upgrade from Leon Britton... Carrick is good enough to make Laudrup push his players forward to make space for Carrick... De Guzman would play in Michu's best role and Michu would be forced forward to play up front. Still, worst case scenario for Carrick is that he'd just replace Britton.
West Brom - They have an extremely good CM combination. I think we're at the level where Carrick is good enough to make teams completely change their set up for him (as I sort of thought about with Swansea). I'm not sure he'd get in if they didn't change everything around for him though. It's like Guardiola, amazing player but no one played a system for him at the end of his career, he could have played for his own Barca but couldn't play for most teams in the world because his position didn't exist anymore. (Sort of how second strikers are going at the moment. Those shortasses are all on benches now.)
Stoke - This would be weird. He could replace Charlie Adam, I guess. I'm sure he'd get in, but it'd just be weird.
West Ham - They'd take him back. Although they rate Diame and Noble very highly. I'm sure they'd change their system or shuffle some people around to give Carrick a role.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine - If Tiote was playing like was last season, this would be difficult. Carrick isn't a pure destroyer, so I'm sure they'd keep someone to do that job. They wouldn't drop Cabaye and Saudi Sportswashing Machine don't mind playing long balls so where would Carrick fit here anyway? Don't get me wrong, they'd probably find a place, but I'm not sure he gets in a 4-4-2, maybe a 4-3-3 but even then Sissoko has to go somewhere. Assuming every Saudi Sportswashing Machine player is fit, I'm not sure Pardew would find it easy to get him on... Their style and the way he picks teams doesn't make me feel Carrick would be an automatic starter.
So getting back to whether Carrick would walk into every team as a DM. No, no way. Most teams need a DM that is better defensively than Carrick. It's one of those situations where Man United can get away with it because they aren't full of relegation material players. Barca can play Mascherano, Song, etc as CBs. A relegation struggler could not... They'd put them in the team somewhere else, but not as CB... That's what I'm saying the situation is with Carrick.
Carrick is lucky he is playing now, as more teams can play him as a midfielder now than 10 years ago. He is more in demand at 31 than 21. It's not a question of his quality, it's just a case of there being no place for a proper number 10 when the PL had 20 teams playing 4-4-2. They got played on the wings if at all. Sometimes an amazing player comes along and teams have to ask themselves if it's worth smashing up their current system and building a team around this player. How many trequartistas had a team shaped just for them rather than just being thrown out of position? Even when they were the best players in the team.... At least Carrick doesn't have as big a problem as those guys, he can be deployed in a couple of positions that aren't too far from his proper position. But I still think there are plenty of teams that'd feel he doesn't fit their midfield dynamic and wouldn't play him.
--------------------
TLDR: I completely disagree with Onlyme's view on Carrick and football in general.
Carrick is good but I think Dembele shades it for us. Sandro is untouchable.
Carrick would not get into every PL team, there are plenty of teams that don't have a place for that sort of player regardless of his talent.
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
On present form I'd go Carrick.
Sandro is a superb ball-winner but his forward passing is erratic at best. Carrick is no great ball-winner but he hasn't half got an eye for a pass.
Sandro is a superb ball-winner but his forward passing is erratic at best. Carrick is no great ball-winner but he hasn't half got an eye for a pass.