AVB Postmortem poll: what occurance was the beginining of the end?

[Kingdawson]

So why didn't we bring Moutinho in? Even if it's third party ownership, for someone that would have been so vital to the system the manager was brought in to employ, I think you make it work.

Absolutely I blame Levy for AVB not working here. I don't know why I'm not allowed to put that idea across. I'm not passing off my opinions as fact, but from piecing together well connected sources stories I think it's pretty clear how some things were likely to have gone down.

What do you think your idol AVB was referring too when he kept going on about the Moutinho deal "being very difficult"? he literally kept using that phrase every time he spoke about it was pretty obvious to me he had no realistic expectation of the deal going through. He's not saying it's "very difficult" because we're trying to haggle over the 500k that the bull**** tabloids were spouting off imo...he's saying that because he was aware of the complicated third party ownership rights. Just like Damiao it was a difficult deal to complete so we pulled out. We tried and we failed.

You can carry on with your weird scenarios about pleat and Sherwood getting involved and how they brainwashed our chairman but any level headed person would simply see it for what it was....an extremely complicated deal to complete due to third party ownership.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Surely the issue is he promised one think in an interview and then behaved differently as soon as he got the job. It wasnt up to him what players we got and he knew that going into the job.

I think it would have been partly up to him to suggest players - otherwise how is he supposed to implement the system he would have presented in his interviews if he didn't get the players to do it? We ended up getting players completely different to the ones he suggested, basing our signings on value rather than suitability for the system. I've defended that approach from Levy for a decade, but he's just never learned that signing players that aren't best suited to what the head coach wants will mean there will be issues in having everything run smoothly. We didn't replace Carrick for Jol, and we sold Ramos' 2 best strikers and replaced them with relative tat. Harry doesn't rely on systems so he was ok, but Levy keeps employing these system managers. If he wants one, he needs to help them make it work. The marriage between Harry and Levy actually worked really well IMO because Harry would get value signings performing to a level consistent with their ability.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What do you think your idol AVB was referring too when he kept going on about the Moutinho deal "being very difficult"? he literally kept using that phrase every time he spoke about it was pretty obvious to me he had no realistic expectation of the deal going through. He's not saying it's "very difficult" because we're trying to haggle over the 500k that the bull**** tabloids were spouting off imo...he's saying that because he was aware of the complicated third party ownership rights. Just like Damiao it was a difficult deal to complete so we pulled out. We tried and we failed.

You can carry on with your weird scenarios about pleat and Sherwood getting involved and how they brainwashed our chairman but any level headed person would simply see it for what it was....an extremely complicated deal to complete due to third party ownership.

Just like you're getting annoyed with me 'becoming bitter' I'm getting quite tired of getting responses to my posts along the lines of 'oh you're only defending AVB because he's your idol, you're just bitter'. It's nonsense. Actually debate the points I'm making or don't respond. Don't attack the fact I'm debating a certain side.

How hard do you think we really tried with Moutinho? I don't think we tried hard enough. And that wasn't even my initial point - it was arguing against the idea that AVB was 'hoodwinking the club' by asking for a specific set of players that he knew would make his system work. And as I say above, under Levy we never seem to sign the players to make the systems work for the managers who he employs that want to implement them. We are too focussed on value and it's holding us back.

 

[Kingdawson]

Just like you're getting annoyed with me 'becoming bitter' I'm getting quite tired of getting responses to my posts along the lines of 'oh you're only defending AVB because he's your idol, you're just bitter'. It's nonsense. Actually debate the points I'm making or don't respond. Don't attack the fact I'm debating a certain side.

How hard do you think we really tried with Moutinho? I don't think we tried hard enough. And that wasn't even my initial point - it was arguing against the idea that AVB was 'hoodwinking the club' by asking for a specific set of players that he knew would make his system work. And as I say above, under Levy we never seem to sign the players to make the systems work for the managers who he employs that want to implement them. We are too focussed on value and it's holding us back.

I'm not attacking the fact that your debating a certain side....i'm attacking because you're now trying to pass your opinions off as fact and have done so for a few weeks (which is a massive change on how you posted before). As i said, generally you're one of the best posters on this site imo but there's no denying you're now starting to sound quite bitter IMO. I won't say that anymore being that i meant no harm.

How can anyone say how hard we tried for Moutinho? i mean we have to go on what the clubs feeds to the press and that's it. For us to agree a fee with Porto means we must have tried pretty damn hard. The fact is, we didn't sign a 'passing AVB type CM' even when Baldini was here (that's the guy that AVB wanted btw). I can accept us not signing one the first time but not signing one again? that leads me to believe our manager wasn't as interested in a passing type cm as some would like us to believe.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I'm not attacking the fact that your debating a certain side....i'm attacking because you're now trying to pass your opinions off as fact and have done so for a few weeks (which is a massive change on how you posted before). As i said, generally you're one of the best posters on this site imo but there's no denying you're now starting to sound quite bitter IMO. I won't say that anymore being that i meant no harm.

How can anyone say how hard we tried for Moutinho? i mean we have to go on what the clubs feeds to the press and that's it. For us to agree a fee with Porto means we must have tried pretty damn hard. The fact is, we didn't sign a 'passing AVB type CM' even when Baldini was here (that's the guy that AVB wanted btw). I can accept us not signing one the first time but not signing one again? that leads me to believe our manager wasn't as interested in a passing type cm as some would like us to believe.

What opinion am I trying to pass off as fact? I've said I was 'almost certain' the conversation went something like I had written, and considering the respective positions and incentives of Levy and AVB, I don't think it went far differently. The Pleat part was just a joke, but I also don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Sherwood was offering the alternative view to AVB a lot of the time - indeed most reports from Castles (saying AVB considered Sherwood a disruptive influence throughout his time here) and Stobart (saying Sherwood had pointed out that AVB agreed to use more young players before demanding money to sign big name players) pretty much confirm that. And that's from one journo that reports from AVB's camp, and the other that puts forward the Spurs line. It's not me coming out with crazy theories that everyone is out to get AVB, I'm just saying he was contending with a fair amount of dissenting voices (alongside whichever board member it was that came out with the 'he's either a genius or a fraud' line) and that wouldn't have helped him.

And in terms of who I ultimately back, and consider responsible for AVB's demise - such is the point of this thread - I blame Levy and I back AVB. For 10 or 11 years I have backed Levy to the hilt. I've usually seen it as 'Levy made the right decisions but circumstances went against him and he had no choice', but now after the failure of AVB I look at it as 'AVB made the right choices but wasn't backed properly' because there are only so many failed managerial appointments I can take under Levy's watch before I decide that he is the issue. If he wants to make 'system' managers work well he needs to provide players that will make those systems work rather than focussing on value signings IMO. I think Harry was actually a really good manager for Levy because even though he wasn't young and progressive and they may often clash, the fact that he didn't 'need' certain players to make a specific system work meant he could often make something out of what he was given. So it's no surprise we had our most consistent run of seasons under him.

As for why we didn't go for a Moutinho or similar this summer - I think maybe we already had Dembele and we'd already established a 4-2-3-1 that we didn't want to make further changes from. We had Sandro, Dembele, and Capoue is the Sandro back up. We had also just signed Holtby, and Paulinho is intended to provide the required goal threat from midfield. So signing a another player of that type would require further transition - Dembele out probably and someone else in. But I don't know the facts on that one, it's just my opinion again but I think that's a reasonable opinion. It's like Moyes at Everton - he could sign players to play more attacking football but he's stuck with a certain type to fit in with the system that's already been established because to rip it up - especially when you don't have much money - to start something different is risky. I'm not saying this means Moyes couldn't have done it because Martinez has achieved it, but it maybe takes a new perspective of a totally new person to take the decision to rip up one model to start again with another. And I think considering the transition already taking place in our squad, and considering Dembele had already played well, it would have been hard to replace him this year and quite risky to do it.

 

[Truth]

Buying Soldado - without a shadow of a doubt.

In a 4-2-3-1, the striker is the most important player on the pitch.

Soldado is the antithesis of what you want in a striker in that system - weak, slow, lazy, poor touch - and perhaps any system. He's truly terrible.

Not only did he have a waste of space, but it was at the expense of our best player, Adebayor.

 

[Spur of the moment]

You know Scaramanga...you've made a few bogus posts insinuating that technical ability wouldn't be appreciated by Sherwood as much as it was under AVB. Lets really analyse this:

My opinion is that it's an absolute myth that AVB values technical ability and i'll explain why:

1) Firstly he was a big fan of Clint Dempsey and played him about Siggy who was technically superior.

2) He had no time for Tom Huddlestone and rarely played him...and then sold him.

3) He had no time for Benoit Ekotto and actually thought Kyle Naughton was a better option on the left for some games last season.

4) He didn't have any time for Ade this season who is technically our best striker.

5) He allowed Caulker to leave who is technically good. He preferred Dawson.

6) His favourite CM is Paulinho who is the least technically gifted of the bunch. He would 'rest' Sandro...'rest' Dembele....play Paulinho under any circumstance

7) He gave Erik Lamela little to no chance.

8) We signed no creative passing cm in the 3 transfer windows under him. We signed 5 central players in total and only Eriksen could be considered a 'passer'.


I think it's a total myth he appreciates technical ability.

This ought to have been an option on the poll.

For all Thudds faults (which the likes of Sandro or Dembele could have helped compensate for), he more than any other possessed the guile, invention and experience to unlock the parked buses we've been regularly coming up against this season. I consistently voiced my opposition to his transfer at the time because it was evident he was gradually but steadily coming back to his best form.

 

[braineclipse]

It's funny, but I have absolutely no problem with AVB doing this. If he's part of the transfer committee he should have an influential voice, and he is also the guy that's just been told 'we need to get back in the top 4 this season', so of course he is going to offer suggestions as to what he thinks is the best way to do it. It also doesn't mean for a second that he won't use youth players when given the chance and he gave Caulker plenty of chances, but youth players have to be ready to deliver top 4 with him. He's asking for a select few players that he knows will work in his system, that can play the incisive passing required for it, and just like this season it seemed he wanted less signings at higher quality, rather than loads of signings at lesser quality. And if that happened, there probably would have been more space for youth players to fill in the squad.

He's also been told Modric is going, so we will have at least 30-35 million to play with right off the bat, plus the eventual sales of Dos Santos, Bassong, Corluka, Krancjar, Van der Vaart, and the removal from the wage bill of Jenas and Bentley. I make that 66 million at a good estimate and about 50 million at a conservative estimate, not including wages off the salary bill. And that's no including any money we would be prepared to - shock horror - give him to allow him to build a squad to challenge for the top 4 with a positive net spend!

So he asks for Moutinho, the absolute key to making his system work. I'm almost certain that conversation goes something like this

Levy: 'Sorry Andre, but Moutinho is 26, so he won't have as much re-sale value. He will also cost in the region of 23 million pounds. We have been scouting Mousa Dembele, who also plays in Modric's position in midfield. He is a year younger and has a release clause of 15 million pounds. I think this is the best way to go - Tim, what do you think?'

Tim: 'Yes Daniel I think Dembele is the right choice. Great.'

Pleaty? 'Yes me too.' 'Great, that's settled then.'

Andre then counters: 'But I know Dembele. He is more of a dribbler through midfield. He's strong with the ball but Moutinho is capable of finding the vertical passes as well as the horizontal - as I explained to you in my presentation last month about my system, Dembele holds on to the ball too long'.

Sherwood: 'Andre, you agreed to this committee and I think it's a bit funny that you're now demanding extra money to sign older players. Dembele is an excellent midfielder proven in this division.'

Levy: 'Quite right Tim. As for Anderson, he's been out of form for a while, and looks unfit. He's never really done it at Man United, and was a waste of their money. Why would he be different here? No, no. I can get you Gylfi Sigurddsson for a good price. Again, he's young, and should develop into a big player in the future. Andre, just to let you know, there is no chance of Hulk happening, but I have been keeping an eye in Clint Dempsey's contract situation and I think if we leave it late, I should be able to make a deal for about 6 million. He'll get you goals from midfield right??

Basically, right from the off he had been brought in on the basis that his teams will play a certain way, and that will allow us to compete. But from the various first meeting, Chairman Levy takes over and decides value is more important than suitability. And AVB STILL made it work. He still got record points. He still moulded what he had been given into a system that has won more games than we ever had done before. But I think the writing was on the wall back then, only AVB couldn't walk out or even cause too much of a hassle because of what happened at Chelsea - he would legitimise the claims that he is impossible to work with, stubborn, unable to work in English football etc. But he still did well.

That is tremendously one sided mate. For you to be so certain about something which is nothing more than absolute speculation should tell you something about your own biases I think.

If (and that's a big if) Moutinho was so key to making AVB's system work then he should have been able to identify 4-5 other options for that role, not just the one. To depend on one £20m+ signing as the only option to make your team work is outright poor management. What then if that player can't be signed? What then if that player is injured? What then if that player suffers a long lasting drop in form? If that is a key role for our system he should have been able to find other options, he should have been able to name younger and cheaper options for that role.

In addition to that, if he's as smart as you think he is he should be capable of convincing someone like Baldini that this player type is needed. Yet, even after a clear footballing man like Baldini was brought in, at AVB's request, we still went for Paulinho and Capoue who I don't see as similar players to Moutinho at all. And we now have Eriksen in our squad, probably the closest we are to a Moutinho style player. A player that Tim Sherwood is comfortable with starting in a midfield duo in a 4-4-2 at least against smaller teams. Yet AVB didn't see fit to use him in a deeper role much at all.

 

[Kingdawson]

good post.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

That is tremendously one sided mate. For you to be so certain about something which is nothing more than absolute speculation should tell you something about your own biases I think.

If (and that's a big if) Moutinho was so key to making AVB's system work then he should have been able to identify 4-5 other options for that role, not just the one. To depend on one £20m+ signing as the only option to make your team work is outright poor management. What then if that player can't be signed? What then if that player is injured? What then if that player suffers a long lasting drop in form? If that is a key role for our system he should have been able to find other options, he should have been able to name younger and cheaper options for that role.

In addition to that, if he's as smart as you think he is he should be capable of convincing someone like Baldini that this player type is needed. Yet, even after a clear footballing man like Baldini was brought in, at AVB's request, we still went for Paulinho and Capoue who I don't see as similar players to Moutinho at all. And we now have Eriksen in our squad, probably the closest we are to a Moutinho style player. A player that Tim Sherwood is comfortable with starting in a midfield duo in a 4-4-2 at least against smaller teams. Yet AVB didn't see fit to use him in a deeper role much at all.

Goodness grief, I wrote that conversation largely as a joke. Is the idea that Levy has signed players for value rather than to suit the system preferred by the Head Coach (which is all I was really trying to say) really such a stretch? I think we've seen enough examples of it in the last decade to know it's exactly what he does.

As for whether he should have convinced Baldini ('if he was so smart'), well it's probably one of the reasons he didn't want to be here anymore, the fact that on transfer strategy he wasn't listened to as much as he would like. We could blame AVB for lacking smarts, or we could blame Levy for stubbornness (as people have been very happy to blame AVB for that particular trait in the past).

I'm no more biased towards AVB than people are biased against him and pro Levy. The likelihood is he will have wanted certain players, the likelihood is Levy will have signed other players that represented good value instead. That idea isn't a stretch. We don't know that he didn't put forward other players, but maybe on the committee, it was decided that Dembele represented the perfect combination of value, good age, and settled in this league and more likely to make an impact, so the group decision was to go with that. Moutinho clearly wasn't so vital to AVB getting results, because he got them anyway, but he probably would have done better had be been given the player he wanted.

And the subject of this thread is where it started to go wrong for him, I think you can see warning signs when we decide not to give him Moutinho and it's an entirely fair point to make. Really getting tired of this 'oooh you're only saying it because you're biased' nonsense. I've already gave a perfectly logical reason as to why we may have gone down different routes for players (both last season and this). Argue the points rather than the fact I'm on a certain side. Because yes, in a thread about where it went wrong for AVB, I am completely of the opinion we didn't create the environment for him to succeed (along with the fact that culturally, as a club, too many people will always be against his style of football) and the fault of that lies with Levy ultimately IMo

 

[Jurgen the German]

Can we selling VDV to the list? That for me was one of the worst decisions he made, and you replace him with Sigurdsson and Dempsey? ](*,)

There's more than one factor that led to his justified sacking but the one that's most pertinent to me is not getting a striker in January. Now of course we don't know if AVB didn't want one or maybe Levy said to him you're not getting one deal with it and AVB just towed the party line in the media whilst showing his frustration in private. We had Defoe has everyone knows is streaky and ultimately lets you down and Adebayor who was playing poorly at the time and was leaving for the ACN anyway, it was pure madness whoever made the decision!

Have genuine sympathy for not getting Moutinho as it was out of his hands, but nearly every manager in world football misses out on players, feck even Real lost out on Neymar. You're supposed to make the best out of what you've got. He also had two consecutive windows to address the fact that we needed a passer. As Braineclipse says, it's poor management to identify or rely solely on one player as it looks like AVB did in wanting Moutinho.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You know Scaramanga...you've made a few bogus posts insinuating that technical ability wouldn't be appreciated by Sherwood as much as it was under AVB. Lets really analyse this:

My opinion is that it's an absolute myth that AVB values technical ability and i'll explain why:

1) Firstly he was a big fan of Clint Dempsey and played him about Siggy who was technically superior.

2) He had no time for Tom Huddlestone and rarely played him...and then sold him.

3) He had no time for Benoit Ekotto and actually thought Kyle Naughton was a better option on the left for some games last season.

4) He didn't have any time for Ade this season who is technically our best striker.

5) He allowed Caulker to leave who is technically good. He preferred Dawson.

6) His favourite CM is Paulinho who is the least technically gifted of the bunch. He would 'rest' Sandro...'rest' Dembele....play Paulinho under any circumstance

7) He gave Erik Lamela little to no chance.

8) We signed no creative passing cm in the 3 transfer windows under him. We signed 5 central players in total and only Eriksen could be considered a 'passer'.


I think it's a total myth he appreciates technical ability.

Great post. Add sold VDV and replaced him with Sigurdsson to the list of reasons he doesn't favour technical ability. Look at the players in our squad now, most of them are big, physical lumps or triers like Holtby, Chadli and Paulinho.

 

[thfcsteff]

Can we selling VDV to the list? That for me was one of the worst decisions he made, and you replace him with Sigurdsson and Dempsey? ](*,)

There's more than one factor that led to his justified sacking but the one that's most pertinent to me is not getting a striker in January. Now of course we don't know if AVB didn't want one or maybe Levy said to him you're not getting one deal with it and AVB just towed the party line in the media whilst showing his frustration in private. We had Defoe has everyone knows is streaky and ultimately lets you down and Adebayor who was playing poorly at the time and was leaving for the ACN anyway, it was pure madness whoever made the decision!

To be fair, I never understood the stick Dempsey got. He wasn't Pele…he wasn't even Peter Crouch…but he got 12 goals and a bunch of assists. Very very underrated IMO.

 

[Kingdawson]

Great post. Add sold VDV and replaced him with Sigurdsson to the list of reasons he doesn't favour technical ability. Look at the players in our squad now, most of them are big, physical lumps or triers like Holtby, Chadli and Paulinho.

Totally forgot about VDV.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Whereas the Portugese, Italians and Spaniards, known for their many outstanding scientists and intellectuals, are in complete love with intellectuals when compared to the English?

You show far more about your own prejudices about the 'common man' with these posts than any deep insight into the psyche of the British population.

Some people are a bit iffy about AVB because of his record at Chelsea. He came and did a decent job in his 1st season, though some fans flagged up the worrying style of play in the 2nd half of the season and the over reliance on Bale. Then came this season, where our style of play was poor, we received 3 thrashings within a short space of time and we weren't scoring. And the worries about his failure at Chelsea started to crop up again.

You keep on mentioning Neanderthal fans (in effect) and obsession with 4-4-2 but the reality is that there are few teams in this league now who play a traditional 4-4-2, even those led by old school British managers. You also wrongly conflate playing something other than 4-4-2 with playing boring football. The reality of course is that you can play exceptional football, or at least something other than sleep inducing football, with formations other than 4-4-2 (indeed, they are probably far superior at producing such football). The problem was how **** our football (regardless of formation) was and that was the reason for disquiet from fans, not any ridiculous notion of inferior intellect.


There certainly is an element within British football which is hostile to people like AVB. However, it certainly was not the overriding feeling amongst Spurs fans and was not the main reason (in my opinion, not even a factor) for AVB leaving the club.

Outstanding post.

 

[Jurgen the German]

To be fair, I never understood the stick Dempsey got. He wasn't Pele…he wasn't even Peter Crouch…but he got 12 goals and a bunch of assists. Very very underrated IMO.

Of course but he's no VDV.

 

[Jurgen the German]

None of the above. He was doomed to failure for attempting to bring thinking to a country where people are still inherently suspicious of intellectuals.

He underachieved in an albeit short time at Chelsea and was underachieving this season. Nothing to do with his intellect. It's obvious that how a manager presents himself and how he articulates himself is more important than the results we get or the football we play.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Great post. Add sold VDV and replaced him with Sigurdsson to the list of reasons he doesn't favour technical ability. Look at the players in our squad now, most of them are big, physical lumps or triers like Holtby, Chadli and Paulinho.

Team oriented players rather than individuals. So is Eriksen. He wanted Willian. I think he does like technical ability but it has to be matched with the 'trying' element. We saw today Paulinho has serious technical ability that he had shown in flashes before.

 

[Cochise]

AVB's problems probably come from having the wrong mix in the centre of the park (I voted the Moutinho non-purchase in the poll). That said I do think we were too rigid and lacking in movement, something which TS has brought in after a few games. I think AVB's mentality of keeping it tight and not taking any risks was the overall problem because the team never really got to strut their stuff so to speak. Too often we didn't attack until it was late in the game or we were behind.

 

[Parklaner81]

How can anyone say how hard we tried for Moutinho? i mean we have to go on what the clubs feeds to the press and that's it. For us to agree a fee with Porto means we must have tried pretty damn hard. The fact is, we didn't sign a 'passing AVB type CM' even when Baldini was here (that's the guy that AVB wanted btw). I can accept us not signing one the first time but not signing one again? that leads me to believe our manager wasn't as interested in a passing type cm as some would like us to believe.

This.

While I voted for the Moutinho option in the poll as I believe it was the biggest blow of the options listed, I have often had this thought. If it was so vital to AVB, where were the alternative targets after that deal failed? He just didn't seem interested in passing midfielders apart from Moutinho......? And that was a big problem - the lack of creativity - that wasn't properly addressed.