AVB Postmortem poll: what occurance was the beginining of the end?

[Kingdawson]

didnt Verts play at CB in the second half capitulation at home to West Ham?

:lol:

 

[Hootnow]

Anyway, my own personal view is that we need a Moutinho type in cm. I'm not sure I can blame this for our problems as other than Moutinho himself, when it seems like AVB saw him as a one-off opportunistic purchase, considering the 3 cms he has signed (out of our 4) cannot play like Moutinho at all.

My own view is that we needed a striker in January. I'm also becoming increasingly worried that for Soldado to be a success in this league, we need to be playing a certain type of football and I'm not sure how likely we're going to be getting to such a style (and thus whether it was the right decision to spend almost £30 million on someone who isn't anywhere near to being a complete striker).

The Sandro injury vs QPR IF he stays fit for the season, we finish the season in top 4 imo. Huge huge shame. And who knows how different things could have been if we had? I'll go for that one I think.

 

[scaramanga]

Whereas the Portugese, Italians and Spaniards, known for their many outstanding scientists and intellectuals, are in complete love with intellectuals when compared to the English?

You show far more about your own prejudices about the 'common man' with these posts than any deep insight into the psyche of the British population.

I'd say their fans are more accepting of the fact that thinking has a place in football, yes. You only need to look at comments on this forum to see very clear evidence that thinking is considered one of AVB's weaknesses by a number of fans. And we're Spurs fans, supposedly some of the most progressive out there!

Read any comment on him by Jamie Redknapp or any of the other ex-player types given a prominent place in the media, despite not being able to string a sentence together.

It's not just me who thinks that either:
http://m.si.com/3718482/tottenham-gambles-on-inexperienced-unknown-commodity-sherwood/

Some people are a bit iffy about AVB because of his record at Chelsea. He came and did a decent job in his 1st season, though some fans flagged up the worrying style of play in the 2nd half of the season and the over reliance on Bale. Then came this season, where our style of play was poor, we received 3 thrashings within a short space of time and we weren't scoring. And the worries about his failure at Chelsea started to crop up again.

I'm not sure performance under Abramovic is a fair way of judging any manager. Doing that will lead to the downgrade of a lot of good managers pretty quickly.

You keep on mentioning Neanderthal fans (in effect) and obsession with 4-4-2 but the reality is that there are few teams in this league now who play a traditional 4-4-2, even those led by old school British managers. You also wrongly conflate playing something other than 4-4-2 with playing boring football. The reality of course is that you can play exceptional football, or at least something other than sleep inducing football, with formations other than 4-4-2 (indeed, they are probably far superior at producing such football). The problem was how **** our football (regardless of formation) was and that was the reason for disquiet from fans, not any ridiculous notion of inferior intellect.

There's a very good reason why so few teams play 4-4-2, but that doesn't stop the clamour of fans shouting for it. Again, just read the posts on this forum, from fans who are supposed to see the beauty in football more than others. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the rest of that paragraph - I think better football comes from not playing 4-4-2 a formation that's perfect for "drunks slugging it out in a parking lot" but not what I consider the beautiful game.

There certainly is an element within British football which is hostile to people like AVB. However, it certainly was not the overriding feeling amongst Spurs fans and was not the main reason (in my opinion, not even a factor) for AVB leaving the club.

I'd say on this forum (so we have 'enlightened' Spurs fans, filtered down even further to those intelligent enough to work out that a keyboard isn't operated with one's forehead) the split was about 50:50. Maybe that's not the case, maybe some types just shout louder and more often than others, but it doesn't seem like it.

I really do think that this is the main reason why AVB didnt last. It's a way of thinking that's common with fans through to the press. I think it reached Levy in the form of being unwilling to take short term pain for long term gain.

 

[Hootnow]

I'd say their fans are more accepting of the fact that thinking has a place in football, yes. You only need to look at comments on this forum to see very clear evidence that thinking is considered one of AVB's weaknesses by a number of fans. And we're Spurs fans, supposedly some of the most progressive out there!

Read any comment on him by Jamie Redknapp or any of the other ex-player types given a prominent place in the media, despite not being able to string a sentence together.

It's not just me who thinks that either:
http://m.si.com/3718482/tottenham-gambles-on-inexperienced-unknown-commodity-sherwood/



I'm not sure performance under Abramovic is a fair way of judging any manager. Doing that will lead to the downgrade of a lot of good managers pretty quickly.



There's a very good reason why so few teams play 4-4-2, but that doesn't stop the clamour of fans shouting for it. Again, just read the posts on this forum, from fans who are supposed to see the beauty in football more than others. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the rest of that paragraph - I think better football comes from not playing 4-4-2 a formation that's perfect for "drunks slugging it out in a parking lot" but not what I consider the beautiful game.



I'd say on this forum (so we have 'enlightened' Spurs fans, filtered down even further to those intelligent enough to work out that a keyboard isn't operated with one's forehead) the split was about 50:50. Maybe that's not the case, maybe some types just shout louder and more often than others, but it doesn't seem like it.

I really do think that this is the main reason why AVB didnt last. It's a way of thinking that's common with fans through to the press. I think it reached Levy in the form of being unwilling to take short term pain for long term gain.

Really? What basis do you have for that? Have you been to away European games to Italy? Their fans are complete thugs. In Spain, this is the country of Real Madrid and Spain, the two fan owned clubs. In theory, great, in reality, the macaronic way they're run is due to how stupid the fans are. The fans of a lot of the clubs want attacking football and that is a big reason why you see thrashings in Spain, because you don't get the 11 players behind the ball anywhere near as often as you see here. Their people (and their fans) are no more accepting of intellectuals than we are.

I agreed with you that there are macaronic elements in the football media in this country who dislike AVB for this reason. I don't have Sky and am delighted that I don't pay a penny directly to Redknapp's salary (though of course I know I do so indirectly).

It wasn't general performance under AVB that was the issue. It was the performances under him that were the problem, his perseverance with certain tactics and line ups in the face of all logic and his alienation of senior players pretty quickly.

That is exactly what I'm saying in the rest of the paragraph. Some fans will call for 4-4-2 (and the number of those doing so will rise when we're playing dog**** football) but you seem to think fans should tolerate poor football in an attacking sense when we're not playing 4-4-2, when in reality, my view is that the best football is produced by teams not playing 4-4-2. 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 should have left us able to play exceptional football, especially with the players in the squad. Instead, we were playing very poorly. Abandoning 4-4-2 should not mean having to tolerate poor football, especially when we abandoned 4-4-2 years ago now.

AVB would have lasted if there was some degree of compromise in his football. Some ability to change the high line when our faster defenders were out, some way of being a bit more attacking at home.

 

[mudshark]

Fulham at home, March last season.

I was tempted to say exactly the same, but, on reflection, I'm not so certain now that, even had we managed to beat Fulham and made it into the CL, we'd actually have avoided many of the same problems.

We'd already missed out on Moutinho, who, I believe, AVB regarded as key; I think Bale would still have left us regardless and we'd still have failed to reinvest the money from the sale effectively. Yes, we might have acquired Willian, though that can't be asserted and he clearly wouldn't have been a panacea anyway.

If I'm right, then the only material difference for us would have been that we'd have had to play some far more demanding European ties earlier this season, which would likely have made matters even worse in terms of our current league position.

For me, the only thing that would have had us challenging effectively again this season and kept AVB in a job would have been holding on to Bale. We could have added, say, two or three to the squad in key positions and been riding high. I think that freight train was coming, though, and it would have hit us anyway, Champions' League or no Champions' League.

I think it's arguable that the positive effect on Arsenal of our failure to get CL at the end of last season has actually been more important in the scheme of things than the negatives it produced for us per se, because they probably wouldn't have signed Özil otherwise.

 

[DHSF]

I dont think there is one single point. A lot of people would like 'closure' by establishing at which point was the beginning of the end - not black or white. I see it as a culmination of many things that snowballed into the end.

 

[metalgear]

it could be that he still wanted moutinho/conceicao in Jan but knew there weren't coming, perhaps because we wanted to buy kids and sherwood was doing good with the U21s and avb wanted more than that

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I voted not getting Moutinho, although the brainfart at Liverpool was a big one for me to. It's like, he didn't get the players he needed in order to implement the system that he was brought in to implement, but he made it work anyway. And if a few other bits of luck went our way, we could still have made top 4. Getting the deserved result at Liverpool could have seen us home.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

None of the above. He was doomed to failure for attempting to bring thinking to a country where people are still inherently suspicious of intellectuals.

Actually this, doomed from the start. Because no matter how much Levy would claim he wanted someone for the long term, how he wanted a progressive young coach, he allowed people close to him to be suspicious of the guy and that ensured, when we would inevitably have dips in form, that these voices would have a lot of credibility in his mind and we wouldn't be able to ride it out without influential people thinking he is a fraud.

There is has been absolutely no hint of suspicion towards Moyes even during some of his bad results this season, and there wasn't towards Wenger even when they were making awful starts to the season and losing 8-2. Absolutely none. There was no insinuation whatsoever that the club wasn't going to back their manager. But with us, we've got some good old boys advising the board that probably think they are providing the balance required, and actually just holding the club back.

 

[the dza]

The beginning of the end for him, imo, was when he set the team up to be dependant on Bale winning us the game. It got the best out of Bale, it almost worked (we almost got Champions League football)...but ultimately, it was a better move for Bale's career than it was for AVB's or the overall health of the club. Bale played his way into a big move and we were left without the guy who we had been dependant on.

Fast forward to this season, where pretty much every game under AVB felt like a real struggle to score, coz of the Bale shaped hole in the side.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with Scara that there's a lot (too much) of anti-intellectualism in the current western culture and this is probably even more present in football than in the culture in general. I don't think that was a major factor in AVB's failure though, managers like Wenger have succeeded with a more intellectual public persona.

-----------

Not really an option in the poll, but the continued problems we had with breaking (stubborn) teams down and creating chances remains the main problem under AVB's tenure for me and I think that's the main reason he had to go. It was a problem last season, it was a problem this season and so far it seems to be a problem still under Sherwood. A lot has been said about possible causes for this, I'm not really up for a repeat of that discussion. However you twist and turn it though making us good at that becomes at least primarily the manager's responsibility and in this AVB failed. Had he succeeded at this there's no doubt in my mind that he would still be at the club.

 

[Danners9]

I was tempted to say exactly the same, but, on reflection, I'm not so certain now that, even had we managed to beat Fulham and made it into the CL, we'd actually have avoided many of the same problems.

We'd already missed out on Moutinho, who, I believe, AVB regarded as key; I think Bale would still have left us regardless and we'd still have failed to reinvest the money from the sale effectively. Yes, we might have acquired Willian, though that can't be asserted and he clearly wouldn't have been a panacea anyway.

If I'm right, then the only material difference for us would have been that we'd have had to play some far more demanding European ties earlier this season, which would likely have made matters even worse in terms of our current league position.

For me, the only thing that would have had us challenging effectively again this season and kept AVB in a job would have been holding on to Bale. We could have added, say, two or three to the squad in key positions and been riding high. I think that freight train was coming, though, and it would have hit us anyway, Champions' League or no Champions' League.

I think it's arguable that the positive effect on Arsenal of our failure to get CL at the end of last season has actually been more important in the scheme of things than the negatives it produced for us per se, because they probably wouldn't have signed Özil otherwise.

My angle was that it's not that we would avoid the same problems - we may well have lost Bale anyway - but this was the moment when I realised how fragile the side actually was. The goals papered over the cracks in the system and the line up.

What would have followed is something we'll never know. Signings and sales. Too much too soon. Same approach, different approach? who knows. But ****ty Fulham winning against us at home, it was when those cracks became noticeable.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

none of them and all of these http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896...ts-that-cost-villas-boas-his-job-as-tottenham

the first would be
"But even early on in his tenure, there was a sense that Villas-Boas might have hoodwinked a few people at White Hart Lane.

For example, he took the job in the full understanding of the club’s transfer committee system for trading players and the dual philosophy of finding undervalued players and promoting youth team products.

Yet in his first transfer meeting last year he instantly demanded more than £50m in order to recruit Joao Moutinho, Hulk and Anderson."

It's funny, but I have absolutely no problem with AVB doing this. If he's part of the transfer committee he should have an influential voice, and he is also the guy that's just been told 'we need to get back in the top 4 this season', so of course he is going to offer suggestions as to what he thinks is the best way to do it. It also doesn't mean for a second that he won't use youth players when given the chance and he gave Caulker plenty of chances, but youth players have to be ready to deliver top 4 with him. He's asking for a select few players that he knows will work in his system, that can play the incisive passing required for it, and just like this season it seemed he wanted less signings at higher quality, rather than loads of signings at lesser quality. And if that happened, there probably would have been more space for youth players to fill in the squad.

He's also been told Modric is going, so we will have at least 30-35 million to play with right off the bat, plus the eventual sales of Dos Santos, Bassong, Corluka, Krancjar, Van der Vaart, and the removal from the wage bill of Jenas and Bentley. I make that 66 million at a good estimate and about 50 million at a conservative estimate, not including wages off the salary bill. And that's no including any money we would be prepared to - shock horror - give him to allow him to build a squad to challenge for the top 4 with a positive net spend!

So he asks for Moutinho, the absolute key to making his system work. I'm almost certain that conversation goes something like this

Levy: 'Sorry Andre, but Moutinho is 26, so he won't have as much re-sale value. He will also cost in the region of 23 million pounds. We have been scouting Mousa Dembele, who also plays in Modric's position in midfield. He is a year younger and has a release clause of 15 million pounds. I think this is the best way to go - Tim, what do you think?'

Tim: 'Yes Daniel I think Dembele is the right choice. Great.'

Pleaty? 'Yes me too.' 'Great, that's settled then.'

Andre then counters: 'But I know Dembele. He is more of a dribbler through midfield. He's strong with the ball but Moutinho is capable of finding the vertical passes as well as the horizontal - as I explained to you in my presentation last month about my system, Dembele holds on to the ball too long'.

Sherwood: 'Andre, you agreed to this committee and I think it's a bit funny that you're now demanding extra money to sign older players. Dembele is an excellent midfielder proven in this division.'

Levy: 'Quite right Tim. As for Anderson, he's been out of form for a while, and looks unfit. He's never really done it at Man United, and was a waste of their money. Why would he be different here? No, no. I can get you Gylfi Sigurddsson for a good price. Again, he's young, and should develop into a big player in the future. Andre, just to let you know, there is no chance of Hulk happening, but I have been keeping an eye in Clint Dempsey's contract situation and I think if we leave it late, I should be able to make a deal for about 6 million. He'll get you goals from midfield right??

Basically, right from the off he had been brought in on the basis that his teams will play a certain way, and that will allow us to compete. But from the various first meeting, Chairman Levy takes over and decides value is more important than suitability. And AVB STILL made it work. He still got record points. He still moulded what he had been given into a system that has won more games than we ever had done before. But I think the writing was on the wall back then, only AVB couldn't walk out or even cause too much of a hassle because of what happened at Chelsea - he would legitimise the claims that he is impossible to work with, stubborn, unable to work in English football etc. But he still did well.

 

[Modric THFC]

It's funny, but I have absolutely no problem with AVB doing this. If he's part of the transfer committee he should have an influential voice, and he is also the guy that's just been told 'we need to get back in the top 4 this season', so of course he is going to offer suggestions as to what he thinks is the best way to do it. It also doesn't mean for a second that he won't use youth players when given the chance and he gave Caulker plenty of chances, but youth players have to be ready to deliver top 4 with him. He's asking for a select few players that he knows will work in his system, that can play the incisive passing required for it, and just like this season it seemed he wanted less signings at higher quality, rather than loads of signings at lesser quality. And if that happened, there probably would have been more space for youth players to fill in the squad.

He's also been told Modric is going, so we will have at least 30-35 million to play with right off the bat, plus the eventual sales of Dos Santos, Bassong, Corluka, Krancjar, Van der Vaart, and the removal from the wage bill of Jenas and Bentley. I make that 66 million at a good estimate and about 50 million at a conservative estimate, not including wages off the salary bill. And that's no including any money we would be prepared to - shock horror - give him to allow him to build a squad to challenge for the top 4 with a positive net spend!

So he asks for Moutinho, the absolute key to making his system work. I'm almost certain that conversation goes something like this

Levy: 'Sorry Andre, but Moutinho is 26, so he won't have as much re-sale value. He will also cost in the region of 23 million pounds. We have been scouting Mousa Dembele, who also plays in Modric's position in midfield. He is a year younger and has a release clause of 15 million pounds. I think this is the best way to go - Tim, what do you think?'

Tim: 'Yes Daniel I think Dembele is the right choice. Great.'

Pleaty? 'Yes me too.' 'Great, that's settled then.'

Andre then counters: 'But I know Dembele. He is more of a dribbler through midfield. He's strong with the ball but Moutinho is capable of finding the vertical passes as well as the horizontal - as I explained to you in my presentation last month about my system, Dembele holds on to the ball too long'.

Sherwood: 'Andre, you agreed to this committee and I think it's a bit funny that you're now demanding extra money to sign older players. Dembele is an excellent midfielder proven in this division.'

Levy: 'Quite right Tim. As for Anderson, he's been out of form for a while, and looks unfit. He's never really done it at Man United, and was a waste of their money. Why would he be different here? No, no. I can get you Gylfi Sigurddsson for a good price. Again, he's young, and should develop into a big player in the future. Andre, just to let you know, there is no chance of Hulk happening, but I have been keeping an eye in Clint Dempsey's contract situation and I think if we leave it late, I should be able to make a deal for about 6 million. He'll get you goals from midfield right??

Basically, right from the off he had been brought in on the basis that his teams will play a certain way, and that will allow us to compete. But from the various first meeting, Chairman Levy takes over and decides value is more important than suitability. And AVB STILL made it work. He still got record points. He still moulded what he had been given into a system that has won more games than we ever had done before. But I think the writing was on the wall back then, only AVB couldn't walk out or even cause too much of a hassle because of what happened at Chelsea - he would legitimise the claims that he is impossible to work with, stubborn, unable to work in English football etc. But he still did well.

Reading between the lines though don't you think AVB got some of these players by promising top 4? I can see Levy being happy enough with 5th and 6th until the stadium is built.

 

[Kingdawson]

It's funny, but I have absolutely no problem with AVB doing this. If he's part of the transfer committee he should have an influential voice, and he is also the guy that's just been told 'we need to get back in the top 4 this season', so of course he is going to offer suggestions as to what he thinks is the best way to do it. It also doesn't mean for a second that he won't use youth players when given the chance and he gave Caulker plenty of chances, but youth players have to be ready to deliver top 4 with him. He's asking for a select few players that he knows will work in his system, that can play the incisive passing required for it, and just like this season it seemed he wanted less signings at higher quality, rather than loads of signings at lesser quality. And if that happened, there probably would have been more space for youth players to fill in the squad.

He's also been told Modric is going, so we will have at least 30-35 million to play with right off the bat, plus the eventual sales of Dos Santos, Bassong, Corluka, Krancjar, Van der Vaart, and the removal from the wage bill of Jenas and Bentley. I make that 66 million at a good estimate and about 50 million at a conservative estimate, not including wages off the salary bill. And that's no including any money we would be prepared to - shock horror - give him to allow him to build a squad to challenge for the top 4 with a positive net spend!

So he asks for Moutinho, the absolute key to making his system work. I'm almost certain that conversation goes something like this

Levy: 'Sorry Andre, but Moutinho is 26, so he won't have as much re-sale value. He will also cost in the region of 23 million pounds. We have been scouting Mousa Dembele, who also plays in Modric's position in midfield. He is a year younger and has a release clause of 15 million pounds. I think this is the best way to go - Tim, what do you think?'

Tim: 'Yes Daniel I think Dembele is the right choice. Great.'

Pleaty? 'Yes me too.' 'Great, that's settled then.'

Andre then counters: 'But I know Dembele. He is more of a dribbler through midfield. He's strong with the ball but Moutinho is capable of finding the vertical passes as well as the horizontal - as I explained to you in my presentation last month about my system, Dembele holds on to the ball too long'.

Sherwood: 'Andre, you agreed to this committee and I think it's a bit funny that you're now demanding extra money to sign older players. Dembele is an excellent midfielder proven in this division.'

Levy: 'Quite right Tim. As for Anderson, he's been out of form for a while, and looks unfit. He's never really done it at Man United, and was a waste of their money. Why would he be different here? No, no. I can get you Gylfi Sigurddsson for a good price. Again, he's young, and should develop into a big player in the future. Andre, just to let you know, there is no chance of Hulk happening, but I have been keeping an eye in Clint Dempsey's contract situation and I think if we leave it late, I should be able to make a deal for about 6 million. He'll get you goals from midfield right??

Basically, right from the off he had been brought in on the basis that his teams will play a certain way, and that will allow us to compete. But from the various first meeting, Chairman Levy takes over and decides value is more important than suitability. And AVB STILL made it work. He still got record points. He still moulded what he had been given into a system that has won more games than we ever had done before. But I think the writing was on the wall back then, only AVB couldn't walk out or even cause too much of a hassle because of what happened at Chelsea - he would legitimise the claims that he is impossible to work with, stubborn, unable to work in English football etc. But he still did well.

I've said how much i've enjoyed reading your posts previously but you're becoming to sound very bitter indeed. The last 2 weeks you've started using carefully worded sentences to pass off your opinion as fact..when in actual fact it's just an opinion. You're continuously starting to shift any sort of blame away from AVB (be it performances, transfers, form, literally everything) and pass it on to Levy. It's actually quite sad you're stooping to the levels that some other posters have showcased since the change of management but whatever.

 

[Kingdawson]

Levy wasn't willing to spend £23m on a 26 year old because of resale vale but was willing to spend £26m on a 28 year old.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I've said how much i've enjoyed reading your posts previously but you're becoming to sound very bitter indeed. The last 2 weeks you've started using carefully worded sentences to pass off your opinion as fact..when in actual fact it's just an opinion. You're continuously starting to shift any sort of blame away from AVB (be it performances, transfers, form, literally everything) and pass it on to Levy. It's actually quite sad you're stooping to the levels that some other posters have showcased since the change of management but whatever.

I'm only going off by what I think is likely. If someone says 'the problem was AVB DEMANDED these players', I am fair enough in arguing that maybe the problem wasn't with AVB at all. I don't know why I'm not allowed to put that idea across.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Levy wasn't willing to spend £23m on a 26 year old because of resale vale but was willing to spend £26m on a 28 year old.

So why didn't we bring Moutinho in? Even if it's third party ownership, for someone that would have been so vital to the system the manager was brought in to employ, I think you make it work.

Absolutely I blame Levy for AVB not working here. I don't know why I'm not allowed to put that idea across. I'm not passing off my opinions as fact, but from piecing together well connected sources stories I think it's pretty clear how some things were likely to have gone down.

 

[lurker of old]

Not signing a LB combined with Rose's injury.
This. We were completely unbalanced without a decent left back. Daft decision not to buy a back up to Rose if he wanted to let the previous left back go.

 

[Modric THFC]

I'm only going off by what I think is likely. If someone says 'the problem was AVB DEMANDED these players', I am fair enough in arguing that maybe the problem wasn't with AVB at all. I don't know why I'm not allowed to put that idea across.

Surely the issue is he promised one thing in an interview and then behaved differently as soon as he got the job. It wasnt up to him what players we got and he knew that going into the job.