Ange in or out?

[tommysvr]

But we rarely beat it. And when we did, most of the time we couldn't finish off the attack. Passing was woeful. (Granted only saw 1st half)

Sure, we’re a struggling team trying to put the pieces of our team back together. They’re a team sitting in 8th and on course for their best ever on season (imagine that!) and they’re playing with the freedom and confidence that comes with that. We’re playing with a level of confidence you’d expect when crowd booes the players off at half time and cheers a goalkeeper when he plays it long.

 

[Robspur12]

Their press was unbelievable, but beat that and they were so open in the midfield. I remember one ball from LB into Bergvall in the centre circle and he had no one within 20 yards of him.

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if Spurs gave up a 2-0 lead to a team struggling in 13th? If Iraola is our next manager, we will 100% be back here in about 15 months.

Edit: here it is

https://imgur.com/QSnZhxA

https://imgur.com/TU4mpwx

One pass from deep in our own corner and the ball ends up on the edge of the box. Utter meltdown if that were Spurs!

What an odd post. We were the home team, basically at full strength, we got 2 lucky breaks to even the game, never looked in control but somehow your narrative is that Iraola and his Bournemouth side had the bad day? Dear oh dear.

 

[tommysvr]

What an odd post. We were the home team, basically at full strength, we got 2 lucky breaks to even the game, never looked in control but somehow your narrative is that Iraola and his Bournemouth side had the bad day? Dear oh dear.

Not at all. It’s impressive that’s what you took from my post.

We were terrible in parts. But to some, Iraola is the saviour. Imagine your posts if we gave up a 2-0 lead like that?

I do love the “lucky breaks” part though. Some more asterisks to our goals and results.

 

[Robspur12]

Not at all. We were terrible in parts. But to some, Iraola is the saviour. Imagine your posts if we gave up a 2-0 lead like that?

I’d be disappointed but could see that my team were unlucky as we controlled the game. Today was the very definition of lucky for us.

 

[tommysvr]

I’d be disappointed but could see that my team were unlucky as we controlled the game. Today was the very definition of lucky for us.

You and many others would be in meltdown, not disappointed.

 

[tommysvr]

“Lucky” is funny. We absolutely were lucky. But a minute before Sarr’s goal, Bergvall came within inches himself, hitting the post. Would that have been lucky? Would that goal have counted for more?

Their keep made a terrible decision to challenge Son — but Son in part made that happen. I don’t recall anyone calling Chelsea lucky when Sarr and Bissouma decided to play Kung fu in our box and gave away two penalties. I’m pretty sure some people blamed Ange for those. The discourse was along the lines of ‘rash challenges in the box were part of the chaotic system.’ Seems like it must be part of Iraola’s system too, then.

And because I know some people don’t read what I write, I’m not here to convince anyone we played well and that all is right again because we got a 2-2 draw.

 

[RigorMortis]

Iraola has shown over the two seasons he has been here, he has far more potential than Ange in my opinion.
I can’t speak for all fans but I would certainly show far more patience as he has shown a far higher degree of competency than our current incumbent.

The meltdown is because the manager is not good enough

 

[thfcsteff]

Iraola has shown over the two seasons he has been here, he has far more potential than Ange in my opinion.
I can’t speak for all fans but I would certainly show far more patience as he has shown a far higher degree of competency than our current incumbent.

The meltdown is because the manager is not good enough

I think we have to look elsewhere if we do go looking.

 

[thfcsteff]

Their press was unbelievable, but beat that and they were so open in the midfield. I remember one ball from LB into Bergvall in the centre circle and he had no one within 20 yards of him.

Can you imagine the meltdown on here if Spurs gave up a 2-0 lead to a team struggling in 13th? If Iraola is our next manager, we will 100% be back here in about 15 months.

Edit: here it is

https://imgur.com/QSnZhxA

https://imgur.com/TU4mpwx

One pass from deep in our own corner and the ball ends up on the edge of the box. Utter meltdown if that were Spurs!

This. All day for me.

 

[tommysvr]

Iraola has shown over the two seasons he has been here, he has far more potential than Ange in my opinion.
I can’t speak for all fans but I would certainly show far more patience as he has shown a far higher degree of competency than our current incumbent.

The meltdown is because the manager is not good enough

The wider point that I'm trying to make is that when Spurs do something right, it's blind luck or some other divine intervention. When we do something wrong, it's a disaster and because the manager is clueless, the system is awful, our captain should never be a captain etc etc.

I'd be happy with Iraola because I think he's got a similar aggressive setup to Ange, which I like. But we would absolutely see similar issues play out and our fans have shown they don't have any patience for a manager to build a system and work out the kinks.

 

[thfcsteff]

The wider point that I'm trying to make is that when Spurs do something right, it's blind luck or some other divine intervention. When we do something wrong, it's a disaster and because the manager is clueless, the system is awful, our captain should never be a captain etc etc.

I'd be happy with Iraola because I think he's got a similar aggressive setup to Ange, which I like. But we would absolutely see similar issues play out and our fans have shown they don't have any patience for a manager to build a system and work out the kinks.

The biggest problem I have with Iraola is that he is not everything we see on the highlights packages. At times, his style can be quite staid and boring IMO. In fact (and a few of us said this earlier) the Bournemouth goals -excellent as they were - and the syle of play today reminded us of Conte-era Spurs!!!!! Not for me thanks...

 

[RigorMortis]

The wider point that I'm trying to make is that when Spurs do something right, it's blind luck or some other divine intervention. When we do something wrong, it's a disaster and because the manager is clueless, the system is awful, our captain should never be a captain etc etc.

I'd be happy with Iraola because I think he's got a similar aggressive setup to Ange, which I like. But we would absolutely see similar issues play out and our fans have shown they don't have any patience for a manager to build a system and work out the kinks.

I think that’s a fair point, that if Iraola followed the same trajectory as Ange the fans would be on his back and rightly so. The levels we have plunged to under Ange is pretty astonishing.

I think the point is when Spurs do something right under this particular manager people do attribute it to blind luck. And that’s simply because of the evidence of the past 18 or so months where this appointment has been in my mind an unmitigated disaster.
Our game plan exists solely on the ability of our opposition’s ability to take up the large number of high quality chances we present them with during a game. If they take them, we will lose.
Over the course of his reign, our defending and attacking have got solidly worse.
If Iraola is as bad as Ange then absolutely there will be disillusionment, but I honestly believe Ange is an outlier. He is Bob Bradleyesque in how out of depth he is in this league.

I am struggling to think of a time as an adult spurs fan where i have seen a manager be this abject for this long, perhaps unfortunately towards the end of Glenn’s reign when it became obvious he had lost the dressing room, i remember the last game of his second full season, fans started throwing seasons tickets onto the ground. we lost 4-0 against Blackburn. In Glenn’s defence he wasn’t backed to the extent that Ange has been from memory and we were starting from a far lower base.

 

[RigorMortis]

I think we have to look elsewhere if we do go looking.

I would definately cast the net wider, i actually quite like the chap at Palace as well. However if it’s a straight choice between Iraola and Posteoglu, it’s a no brainer

 

[tommysvr]

The biggest problem I have with Iraola is that he is not everything we see on the highlights packages. At times, his style can be quite staid and boring IMO. In fact (and a few of us said this earlier) the Bournemouth goals -excellent as they were - and the syle of play today reminded us of Conte-era Spurs!!!!! Not for me thanks...

I think I heard on the commentary that Bournemouth have the second high 'long balls played' stat, only behind Everton. To some, that might be a good indication that he varies his approach. But I don't watch Bournemouth as closely as Spurs so I wouldn't know.

But I agree that most of the comments wanting him come from watching highlights. If you lived his football week-in-week-out I'm sure you would find issue with it. For Bournemouth, where 8th is their best season ever, they'll look past those things and enjoy it for what it is. That won't be good enough at Spurs.

 

[tommysvr]

I think that’s a fair point, that if Iraola followed the same trajectory as Ange the fans would be on his back and rightly so. The levels we have plunged to under Ange is pretty astonishing.

I think the point is when Spurs do something right under this particular manager people do attribute it to blind luck. And that’s simply because of the evidence of the past 18 or so months where this appointment has been in my mind an unmitigated disaster.
Our game plan exists solely on the ability of our opposition’s ability to take up the large number of high quality chances we present them with during a game. If they take them, we will lose.
Over the course of his reign, our defending and attacking have got solidly worse.
If Iraola is as bad as Ange then absolutely there will be disillusionment, but I honestly believe Ange is an outlier. He is Bob Bradleyesque in how out of depth he is in this league.

I am struggling to think of a time as an adult spurs fan where i have seen a manager be this abject for this long, perhaps unfortunately towards the end of Glenn’s reign when it became obvious he had lost the dressing room, i remember the last game of his second full season, fans started throwing seasons tickets onto the ground. we lost 4-0 against Blackburn. In Glenn’s defence he wasn’t backed to the extent that Ange has been from memory and we were starting from a far lower base.

I can't argue with the bolded but because it's what we all see every week, but the rest of it -- particular this idea that Ange is some chancer who's stumbled on the Spurs job -- I have a huge problem with. It's just so far wide of the mark it's not funny. He's a very accomplished manager and if you don't give any credence to the league he's won, that's on you.

I have a season ticket for a J.League team (funnily enough, they just appointed an Australian coach, Ange's ex-assistant Arthur Papas) and I know the J.League is a very difficult league to do what Ange did. Especially via an interpreter.

Other than that, my points are simply:

1. This is how it goes with Ange. In 2018, Yokohama F Marinos finished on 41 points and only stayed in the first division on goals scored (there were 5 times on 41 points, crazy). The next season he won the league
2. In November we were 6th, things looked to be getting better and then we got hit with an injury crises like we've never seen.

 

[DeanoAustin]

The wider point that I'm trying to make is that when Spurs do something right, it's blind luck or some other divine intervention. When we do something wrong, it's a disaster and because the manager is clueless, the system is awful, our captain should never be a captain etc etc.

I'd be happy with Iraola because I think he's got a similar aggressive setup to Ange, which I like. But we would absolutely see similar issues play out and our fans have shown they don't have any patience for a manager to build a system and work out the kinks.

I can’t say I agree with the last part and that really is trying to drive a narrative that Ange will get it right given time.

He got an awful lot of leeway up to about Christmas or January this year. People were patient and giving him the benefit of the doubt. In the stadium, I’ve seen very very little anti Ange sentiment. People generally have stayed behind the team. Even against Liverpool when we got dingdonged 6-3, we were 5-1 down at one point I think and I didn’t hear one person have a pop at Ange.

He’s gotten a good amount of time and a lot of patience. Many owners would have sacked him long before now (for me, Everton was the tipping point with Leicester confirming it).

The fact is that there are serious signs of regression from last season. We’re on course for our worst season in 20 years. It’s not acceptable even allowing for some extenuating circumstances.

Progress isn’t always linear but consistent regression over a period of months, and arguably a year or longer, means that saying “enough is enough” is a very fair and reasonable view to hold.

 

[tommysvr]

I can’t say I agree with the last part and that really is trying to drive a narrative that Ange will get it right given time.

He got an awful lot of leeway up to about Christmas or January this year. People were patient and giving him the benefit of the doubt. In the stadium, I’ve seen very very little anti Ange sentiment. People generally have stayed behind the team. Even against Liverpool when we got dingdonged 6-3, we were 5-1 down at one point I think and I didn’t hear one person have a pop at Ange.

He’s gotten a good amount of time and a lot of patience. Many owners would have sacked him long before now (for me, Everton was the tipping point with Leicester confirming it).

The fact is that there are serious signs of regression from last season. We’re on course for our worst season in 20 years. It’s not acceptable even allowing for some extenuating circumstances.

Progress isn’t always linear but consistent regression over a period of months, and arguably a year or longer, means that saying “enough is enough” is a very fair and reasonable view to hold.

Right...none of that is wrong. But all of it is wrapped up in the injury crisis. How people can just look past that is beyond me. Even if you blame Ange for the injuries (which I have huge issues with) it still doesn't take away that context. We've had 10+ players missing for a third of the season. That would affect any team. Now during that period there have also been performances and results that are unacceptable, that we should have won -- Everton, Leicester, AZ, maybe others -- but, in my opinion, there is enough there to say this guy still deserves a proper crack at it.

 

[El Dante]

I can't argue with the bolded but because it's what we all see every week, but the rest of it -- particular this idea that Ange is some chancer who's stumbled on the Spurs job -- I have a huge problem with. It's just so far wide of the mark it's not funny. He's a very accomplished manager and if you don't give any credence to the league he's won, that's on you.

I have a season ticket for a J.League team (funnily enough, they just appointed an Australian coach, Ange's ex-assistant Arthur Papas) and I know the J.League is a very difficult league to do what Ange did. Especially via an interpreter.

Other than that, my points are simply:

1. This is how it goes with Ange. In 2018, Yokohama F Marinos finished on 41 points and only stayed in the first division on goals scored (there were 5 times on 41 points, crazy). The next season he won the league
2. In November we were 6th, things looked to be getting better and then we got hit with an injury crises like we've never seen.

Wasn’t it Ange’s first season with Marinos that they finished that low? And then he turned it around for the second season?

Saying that we were 6th…is that meant to be a positive? Granted it’s higher than we are now but not something to celebrate.

My concern with Iraola, and I have voiced my high backing of Iraola before, is how would his pressing system hold up if the team he was managing were active in a European competition? The high press and intent to win turnovers seems like it would ask a lot of a team playing twice per week. It seems to be possible to successfully manage that across all competitions providing that you do it correctly with squad rotation etc as Liverpool do it well.

But, can Iraola manage that? Have we seen evidence of that in the past? Or would we be walking straight into another highly injury hit season if we were active in all competitions? And I appreciate that right now we are unlikely to be in Europe next season but you’d have to think that that would be a one season off and that we would be heading back to Europe the following season or so and so the question would be asked of the manager and squad sooner or later.

 

[tommysvr]

Wasn’t it Ange’s first season with Marinos that they finished that low? And then he turned it around for the second season?

Saying that we were 6th…is that meant to be a positive? Granted it’s higher than we are now but not something to celebrate.

Yeah, 2018 was his first season. They finished 12th out of 18, equal on points with 16th. Scored the second most goals but conceded the third most (sounds familiar.)



He won the league in 2019, then regressed in 2020 -- I was back in Australia by then so didn't watch much of it.

6th in November was good for me. I thought there were clear signs of improvement -- Villa, Emirates Marketing Project -- but also still signs of a team that's growing -- Ipswich, Fulham.

 

[RigorMortis]

I can't argue with the bolded but because it's what we all see every week, but the rest of it -- particular this idea that Ange is some chancer who's stumbled on the Spurs job -- I have a huge problem with. It's just so far wide of the mark it's not funny. He's a very accomplished manager and if you don't give any credence to the league he's won, that's on you.

I have a season ticket for a J.League team (funnily enough, they just appointed an Australian coach, Ange's ex-assistant Arthur Papas) and I know the J.League is a very difficult league to do what Ange did. Especially via an interpreter.

Other than that, my points are simply:

1. This is how it goes with Ange. In 2018, Yokohama F Marinos finished on 41 points and only stayed in the first division on goals scored (there were 5 times on 41 points, crazy). The next season he won the league
2. In November we were 6th, things looked to be getting better and then we got hit with an injury crises like we've never seen.

I don’t know enough about Ange’s achievements elsewhere to give credit or discredit. What i can say is if he is a good enough manager for Spurs and in my opinion unfortunately he isn’t and i have thought that consistently since November 2023. I hear about the injuries but i don’t think he was pulling up trees before that.

There is nothing in him that inspires confidence that he can turn it around. I don’t think he’s a chancer, i think he is very lucky to have landed this job and i do think he shows an arrogance which isn’t aligned to the performances he has produced.

Even with your first point on Yokohama, we have seen ange get progressively worse, he had a good start and it’s just got worse. There is no consistency, our good performances are outliers and more often than not followed with a run of pure abject form.

I would honestly love to know where this confidence for Ange comes from, based on what he has shown over the course of almost two seasons as our manager.