Ange departs

[monkeybarry]

Might have already been mentioned, but the insipid football was in the first couple of seasons after Brentford was promoted. He played a style that had the best chance of keeping Brentford in the PL given the personnel he had. Unlike other newly promoted managers who stuck to their "principles." As the team strengthened he adapted his style to what we see them playing now, which is more free-flowing and intricate.

What this tells me is that he is a pragmatic manager who tailors his style based on the players at his disposal. This bodes well for a couple of reasons: first it is a way to get the best out of players, and second it won't require he get "his" players in for his style to work. He can use what he has and still get results. The only question mark is how he will be able to handle both PL and CL.

I too was not at all enamored at the idea of Frank back when we were looking for a new manager after Conte, but his last two years have swayed me. Not the sexiest appointment, but not a disastrous one either. Mostly pragmatic, which is fine at this point.

Don't let reality get in the way of others false narrative.

And more to the point - I don't care how he had Brentford playing, I care how he will have us playing!

 

[alekaras]

We didn't outplay them at all. They had the lead and said break us down. The fact that their defence did way better than our attack (we created the grand total of fudge all and didn't have a shot on target until the 70 something minutes says it all). We weren't battering down their hatches, their keeper wasn't MotM. We didn't actually play well, Liverpool didn't particularly either but they didn't need to, the game was in easy control for them. I also dunno where you got your xG stats we did not have the better xG at all.

We had 8 shots on target and 16 total to their 2 and 13. And if you take away the penalty we had a much higher xG. Granted overall it was very low for both sides, but we were marginally the better one.

My point was that we didn't just roll over for them and it wasn't the one-sided affair some people make it to be

 

[Gazza]

We had 8 shots on target and 16 total to their 2 and 13. And if you take away the penalty we had a much higher xG. Granted overall it was very low for both sides, but we were marginally the better one.

My point was that we didn't just roll over for them and it wasn't the one-sided affair some people make it to be

But it was though …. They never looked like they got out of first gear toying with us. It’s almost like they let us have the ball on their terms. XG is great and all but nothing beats watching the game

 

[Bishop]

We had 8 shots on target and 16 total to their 2 and 13. And if you take away the penalty we had a much higher xG. Granted overall it was very low for both sides, but we were marginally the better one.

My point was that we didn't just roll over for them and it wasn't the one-sided affair some people make it to be

Do you also think United out played us in the EL? They had way more shots, more possession and a better xG?

Liverpool didn't need to play better than they did so they didn't. It was like our EL final a professional performance where you are better than your opponent and have the upper hand. There's no need to do more.

So no I don't think we out played Liverpool. They kept us at arms length and limited is to literally no shots on target until the 70th minute. They out played us just like we outplayed United despite the possession. Possession doesn't mean brick if you can't do anything with it and we did nothing with it just like United.

 

[thfcsteff]

Stabilize team, keep us as regulars in Europe (EL min, CL bonus), in 2 years our debt will be down more, team should be even better (should be mostly quality additions from here), re-evaluate

Not what supporters want to hear, but makes sense.

It is going to be what it is.
I support the club. It isn't worth me investing any more thought into it because we are who we are...I'll enjoy the moments as they come and the good times as they happen.

 

[Baleforce]

I'm just very fine advocating for new owners who will be willing to invest to a level that will make us title challengers. I am fine taking the risk that we might attract a Casemiro, if there is the potential for us to attract a De Bruyne.

Honestly I find this idea mad, we can’t attract the top players who would demand the top money until we are a top team? Or else we get the mercenaries?? I don’t buy it.

It’s perfectly likely that with new owners or a new strategy we say ‘hey, we’re trying to win the league now, and our wage structure is X’ and coming off of a 4th or 5th placed finish, we could perfectly likely attract a De Bruyne, a Salah, or maybe keep a Bale or a Modric for a little while longer.

Are you advocating just buying success then?

 

[billyiddo]

I'm just very fine advocating for new owners who will be willing to invest to a level that will make us title challengers. I am fine taking the risk that we might attract a Casemiro, if there is the potential for us to attract a De Bruyne.

Honestly I find this idea mad, we can’t attract the top players who would demand the top money until we are a top team? Or else we get the mercenaries?? I don’t buy it.

It’s perfectly likely that with new owners or a new strategy we say ‘hey, we’re trying to win the league now, and our wage structure is X’ and coming off of a 4th or 5th placed finish, we could perfectly likely attract a De Bruyne, a Salah, or maybe keep a Bale or a Modric for a little while longer.

I don't disagree with parts 1 & 3 there - investment is required/would be beneficial and it seems that it's something the club is seeking. New owners - unless there is something on the table it's not something to consider (imv) like with any part of the club, I would want improvement if available. Would I want the Saudi's or the Glazers to own us outright? No - so until there's a potential buyer there to evaluate I'm not going to be pushing for change for change sake as that opens up a lot of things to consider (not that my or your opinions will factor in to any decision)

Point 2 though - to me the evidence shows what I said previously to be correct. Top players when available are courted by the best teams - so that's where they will go. We need to up our wage budget sooner or later but for me it would be more effective to go for high wage players when we are an attractive proposition on the pitch, think Poch/Redknapp teams - we didn't have the revenue we currently do to make the most of those situations, now we do so we need to make it count - but we still need to do all the hard yards to get in to those positions in the first place

 

[Muttley]

Do you also think United out played us in the EL? They had way more shots, more possession and a better xG?

Liverpool didn't need to play better than they did so they didn't. It was like our EL final a professional performance where you are better than your opponent and have the upper hand. There's no need to do more.

So no I don't think we out played Liverpool. They kept us at arms length and limited is to literally no shots on target until the 70th minute. They out played us just like we outplayed United despite the possession. Possession doesn't mean brick if you can't do anything with it and we did nothing with it just like United.

It's funny, when talking about the 2019 final not many really talk about the weather. Bedford does as he was there and had to suffer it himself. I think a couple of others have mentioned it. That final was like some of the games we see in the World Cup summers. Pool made us do all the work as they had the lead in a high temperature and more important a very high humidity. Our players were absolutely blowing from trying to recover the game. Pool's were able to conserve energy and deal with the conditions behind the ball.

Very different from the Utd game. Spurs never had control of the midfield for any phase of the game from the 1st minutes. They defended like kings as a collective but definitely didn't show any ascendency over Utd going forward. Very different from the 3 other games during the season in my mind. We had those big phases where we were hitting them hard. Also, testament to Amorin for the hard work he's put in since he's been there. He was unlucky not to have the EL trophy on his CV but one team had to lose a very marginal game. There's no point pretending we were the better team by miles. We just weren't.

 

[Bullet]

Back to the subject of Ange:

I can see both sides and could accept either decision, my heart had sympathy with ange but my head said he had to go, and I do like Frank’s intelligence and adaptability

This however, is a good ‘rant’ about why Ange should have got another go:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932923900700041563

 

[afsoc4life]

Hard to compare - Klopp & Dortmund were the second club in a one horse league. Poch never managed in those circumstances - having one club to overcome vs having several is objectively a harder task. Also if Poch got the backing Klopp got at Liverpool (and vice versa) then things could have been different for both at their respective clubs.

To be honest, it wasn't and isn't hard to compare. Klopp had a better history pre-Liverpool. He had done wonders with Dortmund. He was a more credible pick if you wanted a trophy winning manager between the two at that time.

This is partly what worries me about Frank. He doesnt have the track record. It is a far bigger risk in my opinion than Ange.

 

[billyiddo]

To be honest, it wasn't and isn't hard to compare. Klopp had a better history pre-Liverpool. He had done wonders with Dortmund. He was a more credible pick if you wanted a trophy winning manager between the two at that time.

You haven't addressed the points made - put Poch in a one horse league then there's an even comparison. Conversely put Klopp at a club like Spurs without the financial backing he got at Liverpool and that would be another even comparison. Klopp did a great job at Dortmund no arguments. Give Poch Mane & Wijnaldum when he wanted them and Alisson & VDV level signings once we were established then he has a better chance of bringing success where Klopp has less chance.

 

[afsoc4life]

You haven't addressed the points made - put Poch in a one horse league then there's an even comparison. Conversely put Klopp at a club like Spurs without the financial backing he got at Liverpool and that would be another even comparison. Klopp did a great job at Dortmund no arguments. Give Poch Mane & Wijnaldum when he wanted them and Alisson & VDV level signings once we were established then he has a better chance of bringing success where Klopp has less chance.

I think you are either overestimating Pochettino or underestimating Klopp. Poch did great for Spurs and I will not forget that. However between Klopp and him, therre is no doubt in my mind who is the better football manager.

 

[billyiddo]

I think you are either overestimating Pochettino or underestimating Klopp. Poch did great for Spurs and I will not forget that. However between Klopp and him, therre is no doubt in my mind who is the better football manager.

I'm not actually passing judgement on either I'm just saying it's not an even comparison, which it isn't. Poch & Tottenham were outperforming Klopp & Liverpool in the PL until Liverpool began to invest heavily in the managers first choice players - would Poch have been able to take us to the level Klopp took Liverpool if he had his first choice signings? We don't know because we never gave him the opportunity.

 

[Grays_1890]

Do United really believe Amorin is the answer?

Yes

 

[Bishop]

It's funny, when talking about the 2019 final not many really talk about the weather. Bedford does as he was there and had to suffer it himself. I think a couple of others have mentioned it. That final was like some of the games we see in the World Cup summers. Pool made us do all the work as they had the lead in a high temperature and more important a very high humidity. Our players were absolutely blowing from trying to recover the game. Pool's were able to conserve energy and deal with the conditions behind the ball.

Very different from the Utd game. Spurs never had control of the midfield for any phase of the game from the 1st minutes. They defended like kings as a collective but definitely didn't show any ascendency over Utd going forward. Very different from the 3 other games during the season in my mind. We had those big phases where we were hitting them hard. Also, testament to Amorin for the hard work he's put in since he's been there. He was unlucky not to have the EL trophy on his CV but one team had to lose a very marginal game. There's no point pretending we were the better team by miles. We just weren't.

Don't get me wrong I don't think we played particularly well against United but once we got the goal they really had nothing for us, they really are that poor. The chances they did make were of low quality other than really the one Vicario handed to them personally on a silver platter.

So yes we were quite poor in the final but even at that level it was enough to beat United. They were never really a threat and truthfully neither were we but we had our goal already and didn't need to be.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Are you advocating just buying success then?

I feel like we’ve done the hard yards. Stadium, training ground, CL and at least some form of European football more often than not. A squad with some top players. An actual trophy!

Now I want to win the league. I think my mistake was assuming that when the stadium was built we’d start acting like a club that wanted to win the league. Instead, it upped our wage bill but we still act like the same club relative to the others in the league. That’s when I realised it’s an ENIC thing.

I don’t consider it buying success anymore. I think the hard yards mean we can still say we’ve done it the right way. But we need to take a leap somehow. I don’t want to be a sports washing project ideally, but smart owners willing to take risks like Liverpool’s have done I would really like.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't disagree with parts 1 & 3 there - investment is required/would be beneficial and it seems that it's something the club is seeking. New owners - unless there is something on the table it's not something to consider (imv) like with any part of the club, I would want improvement if available. Would I want the Saudi's or the Glazers to own us outright? No - so until there's a potential buyer there to evaluate I'm not going to be pushing for change for change sake as that opens up a lot of things to consider (not that my or your opinions will factor in to any decision)

Point 2 though - to me the evidence shows what I said previously to be correct. Top players when available are courted by the best teams - so that's where they will go. We need to up our wage budget sooner or later but for me it would be more effective to go for high wage players when we are an attractive proposition on the pitch, think Poch/Redknapp teams - we didn't have the revenue we currently do to make the most of those situations, now we do so we need to make it count - but we still need to do all the hard yards to get in to those positions in the first place

I don’t really disagree with what you’re saying here. Indeed I’ve said similar, I would have rather we pushed on under Poch, or Conte (even if that would have only been for another year or two of striving for a title under him).

I just don’t think we were that far off it either after Ange’s first season, or even now. The squad is good. It needs greater depth in places, and it could use a couple more world class difference makers. If we had new owners / a new strategy to win the League, I think we could put that into the market and players would take it seriously, because we have the infrastructure and everything else, in a way say Villa still don’t.

Villa have made major investment with ambitious owners but it’s not as sustainable because of that relative lack of infrastructure. We have it. And I think real top players would feel it, and would seriously consider us if we started paying top wages. It also then has other second order benefits, like being able to attract our top targets at the beginning of a window, getting them settled into the team quicker, increasing our chances of success on the pitch.

 

[Mikey10]

Back to the subject of Ange:

I can see both sides and could accept either decision, my heart had sympathy with ange but my head said he had to go, and I do like Frank’s intelligence and adaptability

This however, is a good ‘rant’ about why Ange should have got another go:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1932923900700041563

I like listening to Jason McGovern, but he always tries to take the opposite approach to everyone else - and he'll have changed his mind in a fortnight anyway.

 

[glasgowspur]

Postecoglou privately knew Tottenham overhaul was impossible

Reports suggest that early in his time at Tottenham Hotspur, former Celtic boss Ange Postecoglou sensed he would not be able to implement the major overhaul he had envisioned...

thecelticstar.com

Not had a chance to read it but it's been recommended to me.

 

[Mikey10]

Postecoglou privately knew Tottenham overhaul was impossible

Reports suggest that early in his time at Tottenham Hotspur, former Celtic boss Ange Postecoglou sensed he would not be able to implement the major overhaul he had envisioned...

thecelticstar.com

Not had a chance to read it but it's been recommended to me.

I’m not sure why - there is nothing to the article (unless I can’t see it all…?). Basically a quick re-telling of the past week, with an unattributed claim thrown in.