SUIYHA SAID:
Both still hugely significant losses, as much as anyone we have missed this season, with the players missing in question being more important to the team back then.
Is that a fact? Really? I would say that given the level of expectation back then was relatively low (I argued with people that season that we would make the CL, most laughed at me) whereas AVB stepped into a situation where many supporters expect instant results of a top 4 calibre. I would argue that you are lacking context.
Not as bad as some of the others, but Dembele and Adebayor could both hit 30 games this season too, hasn't stopped people whinging about them not being fit.
(sigh) Context again. PLUS let's wait and see if Dembele hits 30 games this season, ditto Adebayor, before taking this one all the way.
(re: Gallas) That's less than half our games he was fit for.
Yes, but you said something about it being nearly all of the season!
(regarding application of context) I have done, and for the billionth time, I just don't think the changes that have taken place are anywhere near as bad and disruptive as some of you are making out, as we have been able to bring in new players and have still got some fudging good ones left over. The fact is, changes happen, and top managers deal with it, for example:
Everton 2004 - sold Rooney after finishing 17th - Finished 4th the following year despite also selling Gravesen in January
Tottenham 2005 - sold Kanoute who had been an integral part of our attack. Despite Defoe's form dipping without him, we finished 5th and only missed out on 4th because of a dodgy lasagne
Man Utd - 2006 - sold Van Nistelrooy - won the league after being miles off the pace in the previous 3 years
Arsenal 2007 - sold Henry - challenged for the title after two years of scrapping for 4th place
Liverpool 2008 - sold Crouch, Riise and Finnan, brought in Keane and Riera to play a more possession based and less direct style, they actually challenged for the title for the first time in years and only lost two games all season
Man Utd - 2009 - sold Ronaldo and Tevez - Still finished with 85 points and would have won the league if the linesman had noticed that Drogba's goal at Old Trafford was offside
2010 - It's hardly a fair comparison to point to Emirates Marketing Project getting miles better in this season after splashing big bucks, but nevertheless, lots of new players, style of play change, big improvements made.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine 2011 - Having sold Carroll in January, they were massively short of goalscorers. They also then sold Nolan who had been their second top scorer, Barton, Enrique and Routledge. I honestly thought they were going to struggle to stay in the division and I wasn't alone. They finished 5th.
Swansea 2012 - They have lost Caulker, Allen, Sinclair, Sigurdsson, basically all of last seasons best players except Vorm who has been injured and Dyer who hasn't even done that much this year. Oh, and they have a new manager too. They are currently higher than they finished last season. Norwich's new manager isn't doing badly either. No second season syndrome from either of these clubs.
Of the above list, Man Utd have had the same manager since the dawn of (modern) time, the Goons have had Wenger in place for ages, Liverpool had had the waiter in the chair for a while, you make the point clearly enough about Emirates Marketing Project (again not Mancini's first season in charge), Pardew did well at Newcash but not his first season with them (I believe - absolutely open to correction on that one!). In fact, the only examples I can find myself agreeing with are Swansea and Norwich, both of which are clubs which carry a significantly lower set of expectations in 2012/13 than we do.
Like I said, I'm not expecting miracles, but other clubs have experienced major changes before and have just got on with things, so I will not accept the changes, or the injuries, as a get out of jail free card when we still have such a strong squad that HAS been available. When we sold Carrick and replaced him with Zokora, people bleated on about a changing style of play and how it would take time, but Zokora, even though he was much faster and dynamic, was clearly a massive step backwards and of course we were going to struggle, that's not the manager's fault.
The manager SIGNED ZOKORA!!! martin is on record and quoted as bigging him up! Now, whether he was towing a company line or not? Who knows for real. But it was his signing. So he bears some responsibility, absolutely yes, just as AVB will if any of his signings turn out to be crap!
But even if Dembele doesn't have Modric's first touch and passing ability, he has significantly greater physical attributes and is just as good if not better at dribbling with the ball, he has the potential to be just as good as Modric was for us. It all goes back to my point, we have lost good players, but we have signed good new ones, and we have a lot of very good players who are already settled and integrated into the side, so I don't see any need to write off the season as a transitional one.
Whether you want to admit it or not, the FACTS are that last season, King, VdV, Modric, Parker, Kaboul and Ekotto were REGULAR first team starters, and that for whatever reason, this has simply NOT been the case this season, in fact we have barely seen most of them and obviously won't see three of them again in our colours. So simply by the nature of process, it HAS been a transition, simply by the fact that over half the bloody team each week has absolutely NOT been these players!
Of course this isn't the first season that our rivals haven't got their brick together. Last year, before our rivals got their brick together, we were 10+ points ahead of them. If that was the case now then I would have my tongue far up AVB's arsehole. They have been even worse this time around so there was a great opportunity for us this time that I'd have hoped we'd seize with both hands.
Because you expect it all to flow exactly as the first half of last season despite the above context. Well look mate, I cannot change that expectation, so I'm sorry you feel let down is all I can say.
Classy would be individual examples of things that other managers might not have been able to get out of their squad. A highly intelligent tactical switch. A rousing comeback from 2 goals down to win the game. A strong win away from home or against top opposition after getting a man sent off early in the game. Swashbuckling, attractive, attacking football, completely obliterating teams. A massively improved defensive record. A habit of always fighting to the death and scoring late goals.
Well it is my opinion that your expectations (and definitions) are absolutely unrealistic in such a short amount of time. visit again in 12 months and let's see. if he hasn't at least got most of those qualities rolling regularly, then I'll agree. But not after barely 6 months in charge.
The only one of these I have seen from AVB was the very impressive change at half-time in the Emirates to go 3 at the back and pack the midfield, after the other gamble of going with an aggressive 4-4-2 away from home was also paying off - unfortunately I will remember his performance in that game more for the fact that when Adebayor got sent off he stood around gormlessly and waited until they had scored not one, not two, but three goals, before actually doing something about it, when it was clear to most of us that a change needed to be made as soon as the card came out of the ref's pocket.
Oh really? I think it is VERY reasonable to think that you could tighten up and shut up shop a little tighter with two lines of 4 and a lone striker. He lost a striker remember. There were two poor errors in the first half that lead to goals. I believe that the players took a collective brick for 20 minutes at that moment. Having trudged in 3-1 down (when most of us there thought we'd get in at 1-1) he did what needed to be done to try and take the game back.
I can point to a lot more examples of tactical disasters this season from AVB too.
I'm sure you could. But I doubt I'd agree.
So until I can figure out what exactly he has brought to the table, that Harry, Jol or even the likes of Pleat, Graham, Francis and Hoddle wouldn't have been able to do in the same position, I remain sceptical. That's not to say I rate them above AVB, just that...in true Glory-Glory style, AVB....what does he do?
I don't know if any of them would've been able to do this, and it's academic. I'm dealing with now. And we shall see what he does. I feel we're already seeing it, you don't. What can I say? We disagree. We'll never change each other's perspective, so I'm out of this particular debate as there's no further point IMO.
