American politics

[scaramanga]

Yeah I remember people going off on social media during the 20th century when black people were being lynched, murdered, beaten and generally oppressed. Perhaps read a history book. We're pretty much the same age but you've got the outlook of a 65 year old facist cab driver EDL Dave. You aren't even active on social media, so how would you know what is being shared other than whatever the Portsmouth Gazette and your aunt in *insert no-mark town* has to say. Stop speaking for minority groups and what you think they are experiencing, and try listening. It's really not that hard. Again, I'll keep repeating that you are displaying utter ignorance and lack of education on this matter, and aligning yourself with scum.

Edit: and with regards to protests, you should probably sit down on that conversation too, although it is enjoyable reading when someone with no knowledge on a subject keeps making a fool of themselves.

Are you suggesting that only first hand experience has value? I'd argue the precise opposite - that with the emotional detachment that comes from analysis of a subject also comes the ability to form clearer opinions.

After all, how can we possibly judge a domestic abuser without first knocking the brick out of some women, right?

Sorry, didn't respond to this part before the edit:

Yeah I remember people going off on social media during the 20th century when black people were being lynched, murdered, beaten and generally oppressed.

I'm not saying for a second that there has never been racism, nor that black people weren't rightfully fearful for their lives at points in history. I understand the history but that's not what I'm commenting on.

I'm talking about now, about a period in time that's very different to your comparison. The police (I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't don white hats in the evenings and weekends to go out lynching. They don't apply laws that have their very basis in racism. If you consistently tell people the police are trying to kill them, their actions will be ones that are more likely to get them killed. Then the outrage fetishists win and we all lose.

 

[AuroRaman]

Are you suggesting that only first hand experience has value? I'd argue the precise opposite - that with the emotional detachment that comes from analysis of a subject also comes the ability to form clearer opinions.

After all, how can we possibly judge a domestic abuser without first knocking the brick out of some women, right?

Not at all, but when first-hand experience has been completely detached from analysis and into the thought process of plebeians, it is dangerous.

 

[AuroRaman]

Actually I was describing the police officer who mistook her gun for a taser as an idiot. I didn't comment on the logic of diving into a car whilst being arrested by armed police - we do have a Darwin thread for that though.

You liked the post calling the army officer not getting out of his car because he was fearful of his life an idiot. You didn't describe anyone as such.

 

[AuroRaman]

Sorry, didn't respond to this part before the edit:

I'm not saying for a second that there has never been racism, nor that black people weren't rightfully fearful for their lives at points in history. I understand the history but that's not what I'm commenting on.

I'm talking about now, about a period in time that's very different to your comparison. The police (I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't don white hats in the evenings and weekends to go out lynching. They don't apply laws that have their very basis in racism. If you consistently tell people the police are trying to kill them, their actions will be ones that are more likely to get them killed. Then the outrage fetishists win and we all lose.

Actually the police, in the US especially, have laws and practices entrenched in white supremacy. Time hasn't changed that, they're just getting called out on it more.

The outrage fetishists as you call them are people that have experienced racism, brutality and oppression first-hand or through their family and loved ones. You can dismiss them all you want from your throne of anonymity.

 

[scaramanga]

Not at all, but when first-hand experience has been completely detached from analysis and into the thought process of plebeians, it is dangerous.

I was still editing when you responded so you may not have seen the rest of my post.

Looking at the same information as you and coming to a different conclusion is not a lack of analysis, it's a different opinion.

 

[AuroRaman]

I was still editing when you responded so you may not have seen the rest of my post.

Looking at the same information as you and coming to a different conclusion is not a lack of analysis, it's a different opinion.

Indeed. Except I’m right

 

[scaramanga]

You liked the post calling the army officer not getting out of his car because he was fearful of his life an idiot. You didn't describe anyone as such.

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they're holding a gun and telling me to do something I will do it.

With that many police carrying guns and nervous because they're policing in a country full of them, some (vanishingly rare) people will be shot whilst complying with police. But one way to make absolutely certain that their chances of getting shot (or pepper sprayed) will massively increase is to not do what the police want.

 

[scaramanga]

Actually the police, in the US especially, have laws and practices entrenched in white supremacy. Time hasn't changed that, they're just getting called out on it more.

The outrage fetishists as you call them are people that have experienced racism, brutality and oppression first-hand or through their family and loved ones. You can dismiss them all you want from your throne of anonymity.

I'm not convinced that even a majority of outrage fetishists have experienced racism. Many of them are white, college educated people, looking for a cause to which they can attach themselves.

 

[AuroRaman]

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they're holding a gun and telling me to do something I will do it.

With that many police carrying guns and nervous because they're policing in a country full of them, some (vanishingly rare) people will be shot whilst complying with police. But one way to make absolutely certain that their chances of getting shot (or pepper sprayed) will massively increase is to not do what the police want.

I think you should relay this to every black person you meet (incredibly rare where you’re situated of course). I’m sure they’ll value your input.

 

[AuroRaman]

I'm not convinced that even a majority of outrage fetishists have experienced racism. Many of them are white, college educated people, looking for a cause to which they can attach themselves.

You should also relay this too. I think your vast experience in this arena will I’m sure be valuable. It’s not at all a tired old right wing trope

 

[Moby]

I don't care what someone does for a living, if they're holding a gun and telling me to do something I will do it.

You big pussy.

 

[scaramanga]

You should also relay this too. I think your vast experience in this arena will I’m sure be valuable. It’s not at all a tired old right wing trope

Why would I relay that point to someone who has actually experienced racism? By definition they can't be an outrage fetishist.

I'm talking about the people desperate for there to be a bad guy, simply so that they can feel good about opposing them.

 

[AuroRaman]

Why would I relay that point to someone who has actually experienced racism? By definition they can't be an outrage fetishist.

I'm talking about the people desperate for there to be a bad guy, simply so that they can feel good about opposing them.

I’m sure there’s plenty of people like that, probably online. I’ve not experienced many of these people at all at direct actions or protests. Have you?

As Steff said, that we’re discussing this from the original point proving how much you got wrong (again) the cause of Floyd’s death is telling.

 

[thfcsteff]

Are you suggesting that only first hand experience has value? I'd argue the precise opposite - that with the emotional detachment that comes from analysis of a subject also comes the ability to form clearer opinions.

After all, how can we possibly judge a domestic abuser without first knocking the brick out of some women, right?

Sorry, didn't respond to this part before the edit:

I'm not saying for a second that there has never been racism, nor that black people weren't rightfully fearful for their lives at points in history. I understand the history but that's not what I'm commenting on.

I'm talking about now, about a period in time that's very different to your comparison. The police (I'm sure there are some exceptions) don't don white hats in the evenings and weekends to go out lynching. They don't apply laws that have their very basis in racism. If you consistently tell people the police are trying to kill them, their actions will be ones that are more likely to get them killed. Then the outrage fetishists win and we all lose.

Scara.

Those who pontificate on subjects without experience, real perspective or knowledge gained from anything other than their own narrow sources, are ignorant blowhards.

You don't know.
You're not black.
You're not brown.
Your comments on who should be afraid of what and who is an outrage fetishist come from a non-starting position relative to the boorish and consistently arrogant positions you take.

 

[thfcsteff]

Why would I relay that point to someone who has actually experienced racism? By definition they can't be an outrage fetishist.

I'm talking about the people desperate for there to be a bad guy, simply so that they can feel good about opposing them.

That last paragraph is you describing protestors. Good of you to see it.

 

[scaramanga]

I’m sure there’s plenty of people like that, probably online. I’ve not experienced many of these people at all at direct actions or protests. Have you?

As Steff said, that we’re discussing this from the original point proving how much you got wrong (again) the cause of Floyd’s death is telling.

I'm not entirely certain of the cause. What I absolutely do know is that we won't find out from this trial.

The trial by Twitter has already taken place and it reached a guilty verdict long before the real trial even started. There's now no such thing as an untainted jury.

 

[scaramanga]

Scara.

Those who pontificate on subjects without experience, real perspective or knowledge gained from anything other than their own narrow sources, are ignorant blowhards.

You don't know.
You're not black.
You're not brown.
Your comments on who should be afraid of what and who is an outrage fetishist come from a non-starting position relative to the boorish and consistently arrogant positions you take.

I have emotional detachment from it and can therefore hold positions without its influence.

To further the point about fear, is it more dangerous to do what someone with a gun is telling you to do or to ignore them and do your own thing? You can assume any level of prejudice you like in the mind of the gun holder.

 

[AuroRaman]

I'm not entirely certain of the cause. What I absolutely do know is that we won't find out from this trial.

The trial by Twitter has already taken place and it reached a guilty verdict long before the real trial even started. There's now no such thing as an untainted jury.

The experts are certain. I thought you were a fan of facts and analysis. You sound just like the middle aged white flag nonces on Twitter who are desperate for Floyd to be the bad guy, just so they can feel good about themselves.

 

[AuroRaman]

I have emotional detachment from it and can therefore hold positions without its influence.

To further the point about fear, is it more dangerous to do what someone with a gun is telling you to do or to ignore them and do your own thing? You can assume any level of prejudice you like in the mind of the gun holder.

The problem with your points is the actions of anyone in that situation, whatever their background, is held in their emotive state based on pre-determined experience or judgements.

That you have emotional detachment doesn't give your opinion any credence. Especially when it is entrenched in your own prejudice and complete lack of experience.

 

[Moby]

I think this thread needs locking soon, but I have an idea to help bring things to a satisfying close first.

@scaramanga - The time has come when it would be good if you could do one of two things to assist please;

1- take a step back, breathe, have a rethink with an open mind about your somewhat tunnel vision view of the world - and as you’re honestly a really nice guy, commit to being flexible and progressive-thinking enough to adapt and reset your views (beyond that of an 1850’s Mississippi plantation complex owner) before then reintegrating yourself happily into modern society...Or,

2 - just fudge it, come out of the closet, double down and go absolutely balls deep on the just-under-the-surface right wing agenda. Rebrand this site to Glorreich Glorreich, furnished in a resplendent red and black font (adding swastikas, white hoods and burning crucifixes to the now pure white only badgers). Forum rep points to be awarded for demonstrable physical abuse of immigrants, and/or Greta Thunberg.