4-4-2

[africanspurs]

Another issue with 4-4-2 is that we don't have a box-to-box CM to compensate for the wingers being pinned back. We have 2 DMs and 2 ballplayers and Dembele (whatever he is).

We'd actually have to play Paulinho in the Jenas/Parker role to make 4-4-2 work

why?

 

[milo]

Don't you believe that. Chadli, eriksen and Lamella are all very similar??? There all number 10s as Poch describes whoever so far none have been that effective consistently

I don't think that they are similar players at all. I think that they each have individual skill sets but at the moment are not gelling as a unit consistently enough.

I also do not think that any of them would be particularly comfortable in a conventional 4-4-2 or wonky immediately. So I do not think that a change would bring immediate benefits. I also think that it would be a step away from how Poch wants his team to play, so could be counter productive.

I think that there is a very strong case for sticking with the same formation but bringing in Kane for one of these three.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't think that they are similar players at all. I think that they each have individual skill sets but at the moment are not gelling as a unit consistently enough.

I also do not think that any of them would be particularly comfortable in a conventional 4-4-2 or wonky immediately. So I do not think that a change would bring immediate benefits. I also think that it would be a step away from how Poch wants his team to play, so could be counter productive.

I think that there is a very strong case for sticking with the same formation but bringing in Kane for one of these three.

Eriksen looked great in a wonky last season

The other two I agree on

If we stick with the same formation we need players who mix it up and not run into each other's very limited space

 

[milo]

Eriksen looked great in a wonky last season

The other two I agree on

If we stick with the same formation we need players who mix it up and not run into each other's very limited space

I would argue that a lot of Eriksen's best performances came when Sherwood reverted to 4-2-3-1 but I get the point.

I agree on the last point which is why I would bring in Kane for one of them.

 

[Pirate55]

Right guys bit of a rant on the way so please bear with me....

slightly angry because all I have been hearing from talk-sport all day is that Pochettino is complaining about the size of our pitch....like Dembele & AVB last year.....lots of **** taking and spurs are the joke club yet again....please someone tell me poch didnt moan about our pitch size when we persist with inverted wingers! please tell me he didnt say this?

Anyway to the topic in hand 4-4-2....what people need to realise is that you understand your players strengths and their behaviour patterns on the pitch. Its all very well me or Pirate or anyone else saying we should play 2 strikers, forget formations...provided you put out 11 players onto the pitch where their styles and behavioural patterns suit each other then you will strike gold....Redknapp while alot of us guffawed and said tic-tacs grasped this pretty well with his time at our club.

So where are we going wrong???? same thing for a couple of years really:

-to slow in our build up
-inverted wingers cutting inside all the time
-the designated cf...usually ade going walkies and not getting the lone striker role.

Come on people look at our lack of goals!!! a primary school kid could get the managers gig vs spurs if Lambert & keane fancy a dirty weekend away at the weekend!!! All you have to do is:

-make the back 4 as narrow and as compact as possible because we sure as sh** aint offering any width! oh and dont worry even if inverted wingers are clearly not working we will still persist with it rather than offering up any imagination in game and getting the wingers to swap sides.

- get you striker to vacate the space left by our full backs when they inevitably do go forward and have a jolly good time running at our wobbly cb's.

Tottenham remind me of something I saw in Blackadder where Rowan Atkinson unsurprisingly guesses a strategy for us attacking the germans in WW1.....

'does it involve us carrying heavy gear moving at a very slow pace in the mud towards german machine gun positions?'

'how did you know that? thats classified information'

'because its the exact same strategy we have used ten times before'

'precisely Gerry will never expect us to execute the same strategy that we used 10 times before, he will be completely bamboozled!'

You get the point! AVB & Pochettino its just a continuation.......never any imagination! we just carry on doing the same things that dont friggin well work! oh it cant be that we have the mentality of tospots! it must be our pitch is too small!! GIVE ME A FRIGGIN BREAK!

So yes Harry Kane should have started vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine the game would have been over at half time in our favour, Kane is not an out and out striker, he drops deep and likes to link the play! so it doesnt matter if me and pirate call it 4-4-2 or others call it 4-2-3-1 WHAT matters is that his inclusion is the beneficial for our team because he is playing with confidence and scoring goals! not playing after a hat-trick!!!!! LOOK AT YOURSELF POCH FFS!

We have to show some imagination if Plan A is not working! not just give up! I cant believe we have yet another manager who has one fixated style of play and then throws his toys out of the pram when things dont go well! why not think outside the box and try something different???????? hell even FAT SAM HAS REALISED THIS! feckin Pitch size! yeah ok didnt see Bale moaning when he ripped Maicon a new crevice hole.....unbelievable the mentality of our current players and now it seems manager!

Basically we need to be flexible and competant at many styles but while we persist with inverted wingers and a lone striker who tackles himself and wanders around then the goal difference tally is going to make grim f**king reading!

Rant over! Peace out!

Great Rant Nigeyman!

I particularly agree with the bolded bit. To me, the key in these sorts of games is getting two strikers on the effing pitch playing higher up the field - and scoring goals!

Others may choose to call it 4231 but you and I know there is a difference between an AM and a striker.

 

[billyiddo]

Kane may be a striker by definition but he hasn't yet played as one this season, bar when he has replaced Soldado off the bench. Your obsession with the term striker or forward is what i feel is clouding your judgment on the issue. Kane has been playing in the center of the 3 behind the lone forward - the same role other players have been given in the league - he just happens to be out scoring them in his cup appearences

 

[milo]

Great Rant Nigeyman!

I particularly agree with the bolded bit. To me, the key in these sorts of games is getting two strikers on the effing pitch playing higher up the field - and scoring goals!

Others may choose to call it 4231 but you and I know there is a difference between an AM and a striker.

A strange turn around there P55. I would have said that you have been one of the most vocal posters when it comes to changing formations.

If all we are talking about is playing Kane in the same or similar position to he has been playing in the cup team, I think that most of us would be in agreement. The only question seems to be who we should drop to accommodate him.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I don't see Lamella creating much soon until he understand the basics and it's so ething I don't see him getting quickly

I'm all for progress but I don't think we have the players for the system Poch is playing as we lack guile and a striker who is capable (despite their history) of playing one up top in this league

I've not said anything about two quick wingers (although it never hurt with bale and Lennon) and a big man (although I am saying bring in Kane)

What im saying is what is wring with having a mix of intelligent footballers and some raw pace. We currently look more one dimensional than ever and our attacking 3 can't play with their back to goal and offer no pace. Mix it up a bit and get some alternatives in there and im convinced we will be more creative.

Don't you believe that. Chadli, eriksen and Lamella are all very similar??? There all number 10s as Poch describes whoever so far none have been that effective consistently

Regrading your other post, I'd like to see Stambouli and Mason now and see how that works personally.

I think there's plenty of guile in Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela, Soldado and Kane. That's why we are starting to look much more cohesive vs last season when we were using the likes of Lennon, Townsend, Ade and Paulinho more.

Chadli and Lamela are pretty quick. I also think the return of Walker and possibly adding Rodriguez in January (in place of Lennon?) will help too.

I don’t think Chadli, Eriksen and Lamela are similar at all. Chadli is powerful and direct, Lamela is explosive and tricky, and Eriksen has vision and composure. The only thing they have in common is that they are all intelligent and they are all versatile, which is exactly what you need from your 'three amigos'

you do realise that aside from maybe erisken , none of the guys you mention actually play a true AM position? so no i am not doing that...i am changing formation and system...and in that formation / system i need one player that can truly stretch the opposition and push the back line further back to bring the midfield further forward...overrun the opposition with bodies ...and have 2,3 or even 4 people in the box during deliveries

You sound like one of those guys that force players into a shape or system purely based on their talent and not necessarily what the game/ match/ situation requires

Chadli LWF, Lamela RWF, Eriksen ACM are quite distinct positions. But I don't mind seeing any of them in any other's position. Kane I can't decide on yet, but is very capable in any of the front 4 positions.

Our problem isn't being able to get enough bodies forward. Our problem is how we deal with team that park 8 players in their own third and make us break them down. How we synchronise our movement to create space for runners to latch onto through balls. Pinging in crosses to 2 CFs, a CM and maybe the far post winger against 8 defenders isn't going to do anything.

We're not plucky underdogs anymore. We need to learn how to play like contenders against the bottom 13 clubs.

why?

Because of his engine and goals. We don't have anyone else equipped to be the advance one of two in a 4-4-2.

I don't think that they are similar players at all. I think that they each have individual skill sets but at the moment are not gelling as a unit consistently enough.

I also do not think that any of them would be particularly comfortable in a conventional 4-4-2 or wonky immediately. So I do not think that a change would bring immediate benefits. I also think that it would be a step away from how Poch wants his team to play, so could be counter productive.

I think that there is a very strong case for sticking with the same formation but bringing in Kane for one of these three.

None of our players (bar Lennon) have any history of ever playing in a 4-4-2. Just because public consciousness in this country is lagging, this generation have been schooled very differently.

All our AMs - Chadli (right-footed left-side), Eriksen (right-footed left-side), Lamela (left-footed right-side), Townsend (left-footed right side), Ceballos (left-footed right-side) - have been developed since they were kids to favour their inverted side.

I'm happy to bring in Kane for any of the AMs and to rotate between the 4 of them more, but for me the important change is to bring Soldado in for Ade. I like Ade, but he's just too static for what we are trying to do now. Soldado is much more on their wavelength.

 

[NWND]

So you'd purposely sacrifice an effective AM in Chadli, Eriksen, Lamela or Kane for a non-effective one? Take out assists and goals for the sake of a having a recognisable shape?




So that's basically the same team as normal (Kane in for Eriksen), but we'd be asking Chadli, Lamela and Kane to stop being fluid and rigidly hold their positions? I don't see how that's going to help us deal with parked buses at all.

And with Chadli and Lamela pinned to the touchlines, that's half our goalscorers away from dangerous positions.

Stambouli vs Capoue at DM is getting closer for me, but no way should Dembele be anywhere near Mason for the regista role.

Who said they'd stop being fluid and stick to the positions? My whole point is that we have been playing variations of 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 all season. It's not about hte formation, forget about it. The shape changes with or without the ball anyway and depending on what license you give your players.

My point also really is that we should stop looking at 'individual' players and more about what works as a collective.

You can say 'Dembele shouldn't be anywhere near Mason'. Fact is whatever you think about the individuals, Stambouli and Dembele look good TOGETHER a couple of times I've seen them. Soldado, Kane and Lamela look good TOGETHER. Chadli's thrown in for good measure as he's a goal-threat and he's bene in good form.

The defence kind of picks itself and Naughton and Rose have been in good form when on the pitch. Naughton was certainly an improvement going forward over Dier.

The main issue i see with that team is there isn't a lot of pace, but then maybe throw Lennon or Townsend on for Chadli if the opponent looks particularly vulnerable against raw pace and you're laughing

 

[africanspurs]

Chadli LWF, Lamela RWF, Eriksen ACM are quite distinct positions. But I don't mind seeing any of them in any other's position. Kane I can't decide on yet, but is very capable in any of the front 4 positions.

Our problem isn't being able to get enough bodies forward. Our problem is how we deal with team that park 8 players in their own third and make us break them down. How we synchronise our movement to create space for runners to latch onto through balls. Pinging in crosses to 2 CFs, a CM and maybe the far post winger against 8 defenders isn't going to do anything.

We're not plucky underdogs anymore. We need to learn how to play like contenders against the bottom 13 clubs.




Because of his engine and goals. We don't have anyone else equipped to be the advance one of two in a 4-4-2.

Like i said , only eriksen has played the AMC role enough times for it to be counted as a position he is adpet in in this league.

The other guys dont play amc roles...because thats not what wing forwards are. Thats what i mean...Kane is 'capable' but would only be reall potent if the full backs were good enough in that kind of formation...right now they arent and so that formation is deficient

our problem is indeed having option in the final third and spacing...both of which get satisfied with a wonky..you clearly dont remember it...why would you..it wasnt the desired formation you wanted us to play even then,....i assume it was cause of your love for all things continental. but to be honest...for the last 10 or so years our best formation has been the wonky

I think our problem stems deeper than you claim and i think several things are contributing towards our poor perfmance...not just team parking 8 in front ...cause they dont often do that......certainly not as much as you are insinuating.....


we dont need paulinho in a wonky......what we need is lob sided 442 which morphs into a 352 or 343.....in that scenario the two central players in the 4 man midfield can both be defensive minded...but one needs to be able to get froward a bit......the left or right sided AM/playmajker can provide the option in the hole and can provide the creative / goal scoring spark necessary...and dembele has alot more goals in him than he has shown us

wonky all day long

 

[NWND]

Like i said , only eriksen has played the AMC role enough times for it to be counted as a position he is adpet in in this league.

The other guys dont play amc roles...because thats not what wing forwards are. Thats what i mean...Kane is 'capable' but would only be reall potent if the full backs were good enough in that kind of formation...right now they arent and so that formation is deficient

our problem is indeed having option in the final third and spacing...both of which get satisfied with a wonky..you clearly dont remember it...why would you..it wasnt the desired formation you wanted us to play even then,....i assume it was cause of your love for all things continental. but to be honest...for the last 10 or so years our best formation has been the wonky

I think our problem stems deeper than you claim and i think several things are contributing towards our poor perfmance...not just team parking 8 in front ...cause they dont often do that......certainly not as much as you are insinuating.....


we dont need paulinho in a wonky......what we need is lob sided 442 which morphs into a 352 or 343.....in that scenario the two central players in the 4 man midfield can both be defensive minded...but one needs to be able to get froward a bit......the left or right sided AM/playmajker can provide the option in the hole and can provide the creative / goal scoring spark necessary...and dembele has alot more goals in him than he has shown us

wonky all day long

Loved our wonky when we tonked Wigan 9-1, Hull 5-0 away in our best ever Premiership season.

..........................Crouch/Keane........Defoe

.....Modric/Kranjcar.............................................Lennon/Bentley

.............................Thudd...............Palacios

........Ekotto...........Bassong..........Dawson/King......Corluka/Kaboul

Later on Bale came onto the scene in a big way in the run-in and we moved Modders inside alongside Thudd. Not a midfield pairing you'd have a lot of confidence in on paper, but we beat Arsenal, Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project away to get 4th.

 

[africanspurs]

Loved our wonky when we tonked Wigan 9-1, Hull 5-0 away in our best ever Premiership season.

..........................Crouch/Keane........Defoe

.....Modric/Kranjcar.............................................Lennon/Bentley

.............................Thudd...............Palacios

........Ekotto...........Bassong..........Dawson/King......Corluka/Kaboul

Later on Bale came onto the scene in a big way in the run-in and we moved Modders inside alongside Thudd. Not a midfield pairing you'd have a lot of confidence in on paper, but we beat Arsenal, Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project away to get 4th.

In Gutter Boys Defense he did say during that period we were doing well that

a. we would be relegated
b. That he wished for Tottenham to lose games , (i supposed that was because he wanted harry sacked)
c. That he wasn't really supporting us while harry was at the helm

So he was up front about all of that at the time, no wonder he missed those moments

 

[billyiddo]

I forget what made our 4411/4231 in 11/12 wonky - Lennon and Bale were both natural wide players at the time - i always had the wonky down as one side natural width the other inverted?

Or was it only used in the season we got CL? Personally id rather emulate 11/12 in terms of setup/formation if we're intent on going back in time

 

[Kingdawson]

I forget what made our 4411/4231 in 11/12 wonky - Lennon and Bale were both natural wide players at the time - i always had the wonky down as one side natural width the other inverted?

Or was it only used in the season we got CL? Personally id rather emulate 11/12 in terms of setup/formation if we're intent on going back in time

That was clearly 4-4-1-1.

 

[billyiddo]

That was clearly 4-4-1-1.

What seprates that team from a 4231? I remember just as many people putting :

Bale VdV Lennon
--Modric Parker

As there were those putting :

------------VdV
Bale Modric Parker Lennon

In match threads - in fact looking at it written now i can safely say i think the top is a better match for what we actually saw that season.

to me the central two were clearly deeper than Bale/Lennon - VdV was seen all over the place, often dropping back - Lennon offered a lot defensively, as usual - but Bale was a constant attacking threat. I think wonky 4231 could be quite an accurate description funnily enough

 

[africanspurs]

I forget what made our 4411/4231 in 11/12 wonky - Lennon and Bale were both natural wide players at the time - i always had the wonky down as one side natural width the other inverted?

Or was it only used in the season we got CL? Personally id rather emulate 11/12 in terms of setup/formation if we're intent on going back in time

you got it right the first time

1 full wide guy
1 inverted
at least 1 holder
preferable a box to box player but could be a wide range of types partnering the holder
Overlapping full back on the side of the inverted wide man/playmaker
at least one forward that was able to drop deep or operate in the hole

defensively for security we were best with CBs that could deputise as wide markers and at least one full back that could deputise as a CB

the wonky had the following guys play on the left side that made it very sucessful

steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!!!
modric
tainio
Krancjar
Acimovic


the really good times were with either modric or niko playing there

 

[billyiddo]

Sorry AS - so we aren't talking 11/12 then? (Going by the list of players listed for the wide positions?)

I liked that 09/10 team - but i don't think it compared to the 11/12 one. We had dome great results and performances but we did often get nullified and resorted to long balls to Crouch a fair bit. 11/12 we had our game plan stuck to it and beat teams through being ruthlessly effective (until whatever happened later on in the season happened)


Don't forget Davids in that role under BMJ

 

[africanspurs]

Sorry AS - so we aren't talking 11/12 then? (Going by the list of players listed for the wide positions?)

we are talking of the year we made 4th for the first time

remember..bale had confidence problems and only really played the last few games.....he actually started shinning in the overlapping fullback role even though defensively he was bad ...then he got moved forward and that was the start of a differnt system

BUT

i still fought hard for the wonky but this time i had bale playing as the channel utilising forward / striker..(to which many laughed and said he MUSt play on the left......such rigid and regimented thinking)

 

[billyiddo]

I edited my post as you was replying AS - did you really prefer that team to the one which we had in 11/12? Do you agree with KD that it was also a 4411 - what do you think seperates a 4411 from a 4231

Lot's of questions there i know :lol:

 

[Kingdawson]

What seprates that team from a 4231? I remember just as many people putting :

Bale VdV Lennon
--Modric Parker

As there were those putting :

------------VdV
Bale Modric Parker Lennon

In match threads - in fact looking at it written now i can safely say i think the top is a better match for what we actually saw that season.

to me the central two were clearly deeper than Bale/Lennon - VdV was seen all over the place, often dropping back - Lennon offered a lot defensively, as usual - but Bale was a constant attacking threat. I think wonky 4231 could be quite an accurate description funnily enough

Yes and No imo.


Lennon-------Parker-----------Modric------------------

------------------------VDV----------------------Bale--

------------------------Ade------------------------------


I think that's what we saw for the most part.