Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[SpurMeUp]

I’m not having the last part of your post. Maybe online, you have some fans who didn’t give him a fair crack (maybe). Generally, Frank was widely praised early on and fans didn’t start to turn until long after results and performances turned unacceptable.

Even now, most fans say they believe Frank is a good coach and a decent man. He’s just the wrong man for us. We’re saying that despite being 14th in the league in late January. The wider mess isn’t Frank’s fault but, even allowing for those circumstances, where we are under him is utterly unacceptable.

I’ll agree with that.

You can call it a criticism of Frank that he wasn’t managing fans expectations, and trying to galvanise fans. That wasn’t something he was used to.

Someone like Redknap would be talking down our chances, managing expectations, highlighting how we’ve lost x amount of goals and assists from last season etc. But also showing more charisma to foster and us against the world support. The political side is not something Frank was ready for and Vanai or Paratici didn’t do any of that for him either.

Certainly online, which then fuels fans in the stadium singing against Frank and booing the side, there were a cohort who never wanted to give Frank a chance as they lamented Ange. It is modern life with social media negativity a thing that gets hits etc But if you consider that a placebo gives people positive outcomes - a belief of support - actually has an impact, then it’s interesting to consider how a unified base can really help a new manager. It is probably under appreciated as it’s so hard to measure that impact.

 

[Baleforce]

That's not quite true, because it didnt happen against Dortmund. The attacking intent from the start won the fans over straight away

Yesterday was the same.

We created more chances in the first half than we did against Dortmund, who were a man down after 20 mins.

Also, we’d have scored 20 seconds in had Spence had more composure on his pass.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

That's not quite true, because it didnt happen against Dortmund. The attacking intent from the start won the fans over straight away

Because the dynamic of the crowds totally different and its diluted, CL crowds are in general better than league games because there are less ST holders also.

I liken it to the MDT on here, people go in after 5 mins parroting their favourite moans against the side or their least favourite players, it just nature

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I’m not having the last part of your post. Maybe online, you have some fans who didn’t give him a fair crack (maybe). Generally, Frank was widely praised early on and fans didn’t start to turn until long after results and performances turned unacceptable.

Even now, most fans say they believe Frank is a good coach and a decent man. He’s just the wrong man for us. We’re saying that despite being 14th in the league in late January. The wider mess isn’t Frank’s fault but, even allowing for those circumstances, where we are under him is utterly unacceptable.

Plenty of "I didn't want him in the first place" "not the right profile" and loads of "this isn't Brentford" early on

 

[Gazza]

Yes. I thought he was a great fit, exactly what we needed. And as bad as the league was, ultimately my support was justified.

Really? We were shocking and headless with tactics in the league. Was a terrible fit and his sacking was justified.

 

[tommysvr]

Re-read my post, I actually didn’t. Check it.

So it’s about being right.

If he’s a good coach he’s a good coach. He’s not Ange:


There probably isn’t a way back for Frank, because CL sides are that much stronger our chances of winning the CL are minuscule. But as you say, Frank isn’t a bad coach and is a manager who will put in decent foundations and improve players - which is what we desperately need.

Sadly, from day one a cohort were never onside with Frank it turns out. When we hit a rocky patch these fans were quick condemn him. Hard for any manager to make headway with that background noise.

Yes, I'm sorry that my lack of belief in him being the right man for Spurs has doomed us to the football and results we're currently watching. Happy to take the blame, appreciate you pointing it out champ.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Plenty of "I didn't want him in the first place" "not the right profile" and loads of "this isn't Brentford" early on

Didn’t hear it in the stadium. He was supported as long as results were decent. Poor results and brick football are a bad combination.

 

[DubaiSpur]

It isn't just a placebo - belief does generate miracles, and the worst part of the board decision made last summer was that we had a manager who had belief in himself, a set of players who believed in him and bought into his vision of football, and a fanbase that, by and large (with exceptions) were willing to forgive him his terrible league performances because he had delivered the first trophy in a generation.

The board threw all that away and hired Frank. Who is honest, a nice guy, but a bit dull and certainly the farthest thing on earth from inspiring. He came from a club where he was feted and adored for keeping them mid-table, and his down-to-earth nature worked perfectly with what is a pretty down-to-earth club.

He came to Spurs where dreams of glory run in our blood, and we were just coming off the sugar high of a trophy and a parade. And in his first press conference, he declared 'I know we will lose games'.

It all unravelled from there. You're right @SpurMeUp that the political side was lacking for Frank, but beyond that, it's on the board who failed to read the mood and the political winds. In going for a pair of uninspiring, safe hands, they threw away all the momentum of the previous year and in a moment shattered morale, though it took a little while to show.

This has been a constant with our ownership for the entirety of the time they've been there - the ability to read the room and pick up on emotions and prevailing sentiment just isn't there, and given football is riven with emotions, it shows. Be it Levy or the current lot, their businesslike approach works in a boardroom, but fails on the pitch because they don't understand the emotion that makes people, fans and football clubs run. It isn't like managing a FTSE 500 firm. Sport, any sport, involves a certain degree of intangibles - belief, persuasion, the power of the body politic and the emotions of the hoi polloi.

Levy was never good at that, and it seems the new lot aren't either. And we are suffering for it.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Didn’t hear it in the stadium. He was supported as long as results were decent. Poor results and brick football are a bad combination.

I know plenty of ST holders who were fairly vocal about it, couldn't wait to Bournemouth game to say he wasn't the right guy.

 

[billyiddo]

A set of players who believed in him and bought into his vision of football

Except they didn't - which is why the players decided we had to play a different way in order to salvage something from the season.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

He came to Spurs where dreams of glory run in our blood, and we were just coming off the sugar high of a trophy and a parade. And in his first press conference, he declared 'I know we will lose games'.

The issue with him here is, is he is right, I think that sense of "this will take time" was far too intellectual for a sport where even the most intelligent fans get reduced to 13 year olds in the playground when debating or understanding things.

Even his comments about booing players on the ball, he was spot on, but then comes the playground conflation and people feeling slighted about "not being a real fan"

But managing a football team should be more than their own PR, yes he has failed the eye test for many, for me its nowhere near as bad as being made out, but I can accept being outnumbered there, but the fans attacking his PR style are the same ones who love nothing more than a few well curated buzz words about Glory and intent and attacking, I find that really ridiculous in itself and generally the football never stacks up to that level of patter. In that respect "we will lose games" would have been accurate for the last 5 years as it is this season, from that respect Frank was spot on.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The issue with him here is, is he is right, I think that sense of "this will take time" was far too intellectual for a sport where even the most intelligent fans get reduced to 13 year olds in the playground when debating or understanding things.

Even his comments about booing players on the ball, he was spot on, but then comes the playground conflation and people feeling slighted about "not being a real fan"

But managing a football team should be more than their own PR, yes he has failed the eye test for many, for me its nowhere near as bad as being made out, but I can accept being outnumbered there, but the fans attacking his PR style are the same ones who love nothing more than a few well curated buzz words about Glory and intent and attacking, I find that really ridiculous in itself and generally the football never stacks up to that level of patter. In that respect "we will lose games" would have been accurate for the last 5 years as it is this season, from that respect Frank was spot on.

I agree entirely, but I think expecting any differently is fundamentally not understanding the nature of sport writ large.

I think Frank generally says the right things - even with his supposed 'jibes' against the fans, like you, I saw where he was coming from. I even see where's coming from when he says the Burnley performance was good - in isolation, it was, relative to some of the horror shows we've served up elsewhere.

He's honest and generally correct in his assessments. But the problem is, people don't come to sport for a down-to-earth status report delivered by a roughly competent middle manager.

People come to sport to dream, to experience emotional highs and lows, to live out fantasies they can't get in their regular 9-5s. Sport is an escape from real life, if only for 90 minutes on a weekend. Much like the movies, sport as a product exists to make people forget their day-to-day. And much like politics, sport exists to sell dreams, not to sell harsh realities.

To arrive at a game and be told your dreams are unrealistic and the reality is slow, grinding, pragmatic, torturous progression, is fundamentally misunderstanding what people want from their team.

Ange understood this with his 'let the fans dream' line - it's what sport is about. Frank just doesn't, and is paying for it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Yes, I'm sorry that my lack of belief in him being the right man for Spurs has doomed us to the football and results we're currently watching. Happy to take the blame, appreciate you pointing it out champ.

Maybe you under appreciated your power.

 

[Baleforce]

I agree entirely, but I think expecting any differently is fundamentally not understanding the nature of sport writ large.

I think Frank generally says the right things - even with his supposed 'jibes' against the fans, like you, I saw where he was coming from. I even see where's coming from when he says the Burnley performance was good - in isolation, it was, relative to some of the horror shows we've served up elsewhere.

He's honest and generally correct in his assessments. But the problem is, people don't come to sport for a down-to-earth status report delivered by a roughly competent middle manager.

People come to sport to dream, to experience emotional highs and lows, to live out fantasies they can't get in their regular 9-5s. Sport is an escape from real life, if only for 90 minutes on a weekend. Much like the movies, sport as a product exists to make people forget their day-to-day. And much like politics, sport exists to sell dreams, not to sell harsh realities.

To arrive at a game and be told your dreams are unrealistic and the reality is slow, grinding, pragmatic, torturous progression, is fundamentally misunderstanding what people want from their team.

Ange understood this with his 'let the fans dream' line - it's what sport is about. Frank just doesn't, and is paying for it.

That’s just boosterism, I don’t want it from our politicians, and I certainly don’t want it from our manager.

You can’t fix problems if you deny they exist.

Pragmatism is a cornerstone of success, that’s a universal truth.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Genuinely concerned we’re gonna lose the next 4 games. I just don’t see who is going to get us goals other than the CB’s.

 

[DubaiSpur]

That’s just boosterism, I don’t want it from our politicians, and I certainly don’t want it from our manager.

You can’t fix problems if you deny they exist.

Pragmatism is a cornerstone of success, that’s a universal truth.

Fair enough mate, but I'd say you're in the minority. My take is that most football fans don't think like you do - likewise for most voters, tbh.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Ange understood this with his 'let the fans dream' line - it's what sport is about. Frank just doesn't, and is paying for it.

Of course and I will be forever grateful for Ange and for the trophy, he delivered and he said it and did it, but for 99.9% of the rest it will be a lie and not to backed up, not at their own fault either.

For Frank, the first to come in and say as it is and the fact we need to build again on what is the worst thought out squad builds versus money spent I have ever seen, I respect it because I don't need to be lied to by a manager.

All PR aside, I think Franks performance actually largely mirrors Ange last season, the European exploits look in part like nothing in the league, for me its an example of where we are short in personnel

We look likely to come out of this window in profit, so much for ambitions

 

[braineclipse]

I haven't seen many be critical of the performance itself, more critical of the fact we have gained one point against two of the bottom three teams. And Frank has dug a hole for himself in That respect, because if you play the football he does and then the only way you're going to get away with it at a club like Spurs is with results. And he's not getting results and hasn't sometime.

So you're not going to see some mitigation for an 'unlucky' point against the team second from bottom in the league. The fact our away fans are singing songs about backwards and sidewards passing tells you where we are at with him..,,

Fully agreed. Just to add. He's not in trouble because of the last 5-6 games, he's in trouble because of what's happened across the season. At that point the only thing that turns things around are results. Improvements in performance are always welcome imo, though performing better against some of the worst teams we're gonna play this season in the league is a bare minimum imo. If he's still here come City, United and Saudi Sportswashing Machine and we're looking better than earlier in the season we can start talking about him maybe turning things around.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Genuinely concerned we’re gonna lose the next 4 games. I just don’t see who is going to get us goals other than the CB’s.

I don't think we will TBH..........For all his failings Richy was getting a decent number of goals, I think Solanke has improved how we play in the last two games and I expect him to pick up some slack, I think he is better than Richy at the link up play.

City I don't expect anything because of who they are, Man United lets see, Saudi Sportswashing Machine are not out of this world can see us beating them and the NLD could be absolutely anything given the nature of the game

 

[DubaiSpur]

Of course and I will be forever grateful for Ange and for the trophy, he delivered and he said it and did it, but for 99.9% of the rest it will be a lie and not to back it up.

For Frank, the first to come in and say as it is and the fact we need to build again on what is the worst thought out squad builds versus money spent I have ever seen, I respect it because I don't need to be lied to by a manager.

All PR aside, I think Franks performance actually largely mirrors Ange last season, the European exploits look in part like nothing in the league, for me its an example of where we are short in personnel

We look likely to come out of this window in profit, so much for ambitions

Oh, for sure mate. Fundamentally, this squad is a Frankenstein's mess of mediocrity and false dawns, assembled because no one higher up understands the idea that trying to cheap out on something generally means you pay more money down the line for worse outcomes.

For years we've seen a steady degradation of squad quality, in part to keep the wage bill as low as humanly possible, in part because of ingrained operating practices in the club. Like buying weaker backups and mid-potential youngsters over buying players superior to the first eleven. We're seeing it again in this window, with people clapping for the potential Robertson transfer despite it being one more in a long line of moves that lower squad quality on the whole.

No manager can do more than put lipstick on this pig, so to speak. To reform this needs years, lots of money, and top football operators who understand how to build winning teams. I frankly don't think we have the personnel or the will to do this.

And I also think the fans are starting to understand this - but the only recourse they have for a change is to call for sacking the coach, because that's how they've traditionally expressed discontent. And so they do - I don't blame them for it.

For me, I'm of the same opinion now that I was when he was appointed - Frank is a mediocre coach, but he's not the problem. The structure of the club is. And that will fester regardless of what happens to Frank.