So, what happened today?

[glasgowspur]

I’ll happily admit I prefer watching men’s sport to women’s sport. I’ll also happily admit I disagree that women deserve equal pay in certain sports, particularly where the men generate more interest and revenue than their female counterparts such as football. But I still enjoy women’s sport, tennis in particular as I’m a big tennis fan. I want to see safe and fair competition. I can’t speak for everyone, but that’s just my view. There are countless examples where trans woman now hold records in women’s sports where it’s clear they have an advantage, I don’t see how that is fair. I do also think trans people and people advocating for them (like Stonewall) would benefit by meeting people in the middle when it comes to debates like this. Even if they are disappointed because they can’t compete, admitting they hold an advantage instead of pretending they don’t would help their cause. You don’t have to be an expert in biology to see that trans athletes in certain sports have an unfair disadvantage over biological women. To keep saying they don’t just turns people off IMO.

I do agree with you that a certain percentage don’t care about women’s sport at all and just use it as an excuse to bash trans people. Impossible to measure how many people feel that way but it would be unfair to lump everyone in the same box as those people just as it would be unfair to lump all trans people in the same box as those sending death threats to JK Rowling as I’m sure it’s a small percentage of trans people.

I enjoy women's tennis and golf more than the male equivalent.
Both retain something of the original cerebral elements of the game that the men's game has now lost and have become power orientated.
Put an elite woman up against a very mediocre male pro and the male will win.
Being a cynic I'm actually surprised no women's football team has a trans identifying goalkeeper, they would sweep all before them.

 

[spurspinter1]

I’ll happily admit I prefer watching men’s sport to women’s sport. I’ll also happily admit I disagree that women deserve equal pay in certain sports, particularly where the men generate more interest and revenue than their female counterparts such as football. But I still enjoy women’s sport, tennis in particular as I’m a big tennis fan. I want to see safe and fair competition. I can’t speak for everyone, but that’s just my view. There are countless examples where trans woman now hold records in women’s sports where it’s clear they have an advantage, I don’t see how that is fair. I do also think trans people and people advocating for them (like Stonewall) would benefit by meeting people in the middle when it comes to debates like this. Even if they are disappointed because they can’t compete, admitting they hold an advantage instead of pretending they don’t would help their cause. You don’t have to be an expert in biology to see that trans athletes in certain sports have an unfair disadvantage over biological women. To keep saying they don’t just turns people off IMO.

I do agree with you that a certain percentage don’t care about women’s sport at all and just use it as an excuse to bash trans people. Impossible to measure how many people feel that way but it would be unfair to lump everyone in the same box as those people just as it would be unfair to lump all trans people in the same box as those sending death threats to JK Rowling as I’m sure it’s a small percentage of trans people.

Funny you mention death threats, the day I saw a clip of Roy Keane that I agreed with (worrying I know). All this talk about death threats, along with Roy, I think if you're actually going to kill someone, you don't @ the person on twitter, you just go and do it. Am I saying then that it's okay to send death threats? No, but I doubt they're ever made by anyone actually wanting to murder someone, and most of the time it's probably AI anyways.

If you get called out for something, it's easier to set a horde of bots on yourself and cry about it than it is to self reflect on what it is that has offended people.

No drama on not wanting equal pay when the income generated for different events is vastly different. Maybe it's due to the historical effects of the patriarchy ie women's football getting shut down because it was more popular than men's and that irked a few blokes in power who had fragile egos, but it's simply how capitalism works I guess.

I haven't seen the John oliver stuff you referred you about trans "advantage". I'd be interested in watching it. Not to oversimplify it but I'd hazard a guess that you're team Bill Maher (who I cannot abide) and I'm team John Oliver / Stewart, but despite being much more likeable they aren't above getting things wrong from time to time.

 

[markysimmo]

Don't know how they had the strength to do this after what happened to their daughters in Southport
Incredible mental toughness

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c99pkz519g2ohttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c99pkz519g2o

 

[nelto]

Not felt like working today so decided to have a real chill day. Been sat in the chair listening to all my Floyd albums and they are not only brilliant it brought back so many GREAT memories of seeing them live on many occasions.

What a band.

I’m at the cinema now. Pink Floyd - Live at Pompeii. Seen it loads of times, but looking forward to seeing it on the big screen.

 

[glasgowspur]

Funny you mention death threats, the day I saw a clip of Roy Keane that I agreed with (worrying I know). All this talk about death threats, along with Roy, I think if you're actually going to kill someone, you don't @ the person on twitter, you just go and do it. Am I saying then that it's okay to send death threats? No, but I doubt they're ever made by anyone actually wanting to murder someone, and most of the time it's probably AI anyways.

If you get called out for something, it's easier to set a horde of bots on yourself and cry about it than it is to self reflect on what it is that has offended people.

No drama on not wanting equal pay when the income generated for different events is vastly different. Maybe it's due to the historical effects of the patriarchy ie women's football getting shut down because it was more popular than men's and that irked a few blokes in power who had fragile egos, but it's simply how capitalism works I guess.

I haven't seen the John oliver stuff you referred you about trans "advantage". I'd be interested in watching it. Not to oversimplify it but I'd hazard a guess that you're team Bill Maher (who I cannot abide) and I'm team John Oliver / Stewart, but despite being much more likeable they aren't above getting things wrong from time to time.

Who are you saying should ignore threatening and abusive behavior, I'm a little unclear on this?

 

[spurspinter1]

Who are you saying should ignore threatening and abusive behavior, I'm a little unclear on this?

Perhaps you're deliberately misunderstanding me but okay, imagining you're asking that question sincerely I'll attempt to explain again.

I'm questioning the validity of such behaviour in high profile cases. If someone was receiving death threats from someone they knew personally, potentially triggered by events in life, family issues / break ups / money etc, that's obviously a different situation. I'm describing what might happen if someone tweets "die bitch" to Katie Hopkins or Piers Morgan or some other slimy bottom feeder being controversial for career purposes.

Ignoring it is a tricky one, I haven’t suggested that, I've suggested that people in the know have created the death threats in order to distract attention from the original issue.

However, if there are those that send those kind of threats but have no intention of committing violence, if they see a public reaction, in their twisted mind I'd imagine they would feel like it was a job well done tbh. Not in every case, but in the vast majority of them it's just attention seeking.

Now, I'm not justifying that behaviour but it is enabled by the various behemoths of social media who aren't too fussed about anonymous accounts either spreading misinformation or being abusive. Whether it's a real person or a bot, as opposed to ignoring it, you could talk to the police, but they're only vaguely bothered if something has actually happened from my understanding of it.

In football terms, I can't remember which club / player it was but they did a horrendous, indefensible challenge and could have ended a player's career. It was quite a recent event. The club was able to strengthen their position by reacting to abuse aimed towards the player who committed the tackle, and it made them appear righteous and shifted attention from the incident itself. It was beneficial to the PR stance of the club if a death threat was made, do you see the similarity in situation?

Maybe someone has made a death threat aimed at JK Rowling and genuinely aims to kill her, that's plausible I guess in the way that anything could happen, but it's doubtful.

 

[Rorschach]

Well today my homeland is in the news. Kashmir has always been political ping pong for armies and governments and terrorists.

Is this liable to go sideways, do you think?

 

[LutonSpurs]

Is this liable to go sideways, do you think?

I worry. Family back home is panicking a bit. But personally I think it's posturing on both sides.

 

[LutonSpurs]

We live a few miles from the line of control and we are just within what is considered a disputed zone. We've lost countless villages and family members in the past 2 wars. Just hoping it deescalates quickly

 

[parklane1]

I’m at the cinema now. Pink Floyd - Live at Pompeii. Seen it loads of times, but looking forward to seeing it on the big screen.

Brilliant.

 

[Rorschach]

I worry. Family back home is panicking a bit. But personally I think it's posturing on both sides.

I do hope you are right. A war between two nuclear powers does not bear thinking about.

 

[glasgowspur]

Perhaps you're deliberately misunderstanding me but okay, imagining you're asking that question sincerely I'll attempt to explain again.

I'm questioning the validity of such behaviour in high profile cases. If someone was receiving death threats from someone they knew personally, potentially triggered by events in life, family issues / break ups / money etc, that's obviously a different situation. I'm describing what might happen if someone tweets "die bitch" to Katie Hopkins or Piers Morgan or some other slimy bottom feeder being controversial for career purposes.

Ignoring it is a tricky one, I haven’t suggested that, I've suggested that people in the know have created the death threats in order to distract attention from the original issue.

However, if there are those that send those kind of threats but have no intention of committing violence, if they see a public reaction, in their twisted mind I'd imagine they would feel like it was a job well done tbh. Not in every case, but in the vast majority of them it's just attention seeking.

Now, I'm not justifying that behaviour but it is enabled by the various behemoths of social media who aren't too fussed about anonymous accounts either spreading misinformation or being abusive. Whether it's a real person or a bot, as opposed to ignoring it, you could talk to the police, but they're only vaguely bothered if something has actually happened from my understanding of it.

In football terms, I can't remember which club / player it was but they did a horrendous, indefensible challenge and could have ended a player's career. It was quite a recent event. The club was able to strengthen their position by reacting to abuse aimed towards the player who committed the tackle, and it made them appear righteous and shifted attention from the incident itself. It was beneficial to the PR stance of the club if a death threat was made, do you see the similarity in situation?

Maybe someone has made a death threat aimed at JK Rowling and genuinely aims to kill her, that's plausible I guess in the way that anything could happen, but it's doubtful.

So only in high profile cases?
And I'm not limiting this to the trans debate, there are a lot of emotive issues around just now that are bsecoming more toxic as the weeks go on, whether it's the political divide, migrants, the Gazza and Israel situation or any number of other sensitive issues.
It's easy to rubbish the threats but look at the violence after the misinformation spread about that dance class attack, wouldn't you think that the situation that could easily get out of control?
Granted as far as I can remember there was no direct threat beforehand but it's not that long ago that the mp (cook?) was murdered in the street by someone who was upset (doesn't feel like a strong enough word for his heinous act) about some of these emotive issues.

I certainly was not deliberately misunderstanding you, for you this felt I quite a flippant attitude, not something I would expect from you.
Maybe I have misunderstood, but if I have it's not deliberate.