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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Grays_1890 said:
During the period from when it was perceived as the capital of knife crime in Europe and the world, to where they got it and how they got there. As I say read up on it, read the book. As I say, their operation was globally famous.........
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So you're saying this was achieved by the government forcing police Scotland to devote a % of their resources to community policing or have their funding reduced so the SNP can put some socials out prior to the local elections?
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
So you're saying this was achieved by the government forcing police Scotland to devote a % of their resources to community policing or have their funding reduced so the SNP can put some socials out prior to the local elections?
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TBH I am not even sure where you are going with this anymore. I have not mentioned the SNP and nothing I am talking about is about political agenda.

I am saying that the operation that was lead under John Carnochan, which was all about community policing to the core was the reason that they saw homicides in Glasgow reduce by 50% when the cities stats were northward of NYC and London. It was achieved by setting up a specific unit which was dedicated to community approached policing.

I used it as a relevant example, relevant because its studied and written about globally about the impact and benefit of community policing. Working with people at a human level and aligning the education, health services, careers advice, social services and diversionary projects to find out what motivates young men to turn to violent crime and try to change their behaviour.

That was my point about community policing and what it can achieve if done right. Its nowhere near being done right now regardless of what you say about monetary investment

You are literally living in cloud cuckoo land if you think community policing in this country is up to snuff and it goes against literally every report I have seen and reports from the public, businesses and within the force itself. The decision from Labour literally comes as a result of pressure from the highstreet complaints that community policing is on its knees
 
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Grays_1890 said:
TBH I am not even sure where you are going with this anymore. I have not mentioned the SNP and nothing I am talking about is about political agenda.

I am saying that the operation that was lead under John Carnochan, which was all about community policing to the core was the reason that they saw homicides in Glasgow reduce by 50% when the cities stats were northward of NYC and London. It was achieved by setting up a specific unit which was dedicated to community approached policing.

I used it as a relevant example, relevant because its studied and written about globally about the impact and benefit of community policing. Working with people at a human level and aligning the education, health services, careers advice, social services and diversionary projects to find out what motivates young men to turn to violent crime and try to change their behaviour.

That was my point about community policing and what it can achieve if done right. Its nowhere near being done right now regardless of what you say about monetary investment

You are literally living in cloud cuckoo land if you think community policing in this country is up to snuff and it goes against literally every report I have seen and reports from the public, businesses and within the force itself. The decision from Labour literally comes as a result of pressure from the highstreet complaints that community policing is on its knees
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We aren't discussing whether community policing is important, we are discussing whether Labour's claim/policy that it's dead but don't worry, we are going to fix it by telling forces their funding will be cut unless they deploy resources as central government sees fit, has merit.

Your example (and the Manchester example Labour are touting in their announcement) merely show successful community policing in action outside of government meddling. This is simply another example of "look at us, we are doing stuff by rebranding the stuff already going on as our own, but with some added typical Labour government overreach and meddling into every walk of life.....you know the sort of "we know what's good for you" arrogance that characterised the Blair era.
 
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Silly McSilly Face said:
We aren't discussing whether community policing is important, we are discussing whether Labour's claim/policy that it's dead but don't worry, we are going to fix it by telling forces their funding will be cut unless they deploy resources as central government sees fit, has merit.

Your example (and the Manchester example Labour are touting in their announcement) merely show successful community policing in action outside of government meddling. This is simply another example of "look at us, we are doing stuff by rebranding the stuff already going on as our own, but with some added typical Labour government overreach and meddling into every walk of life.....you know the sort of "we know what's good for you" arrogance that characterised the Blair era.
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No I said "community led policing has been long overdue to make a comeback" which it is because we are not doing it to the level needed and the evidence out their supports that.

Anyway enjoy the game........COYS
 
Gutter Boy said:
Law enforcement agencies always say on the beat policing is a complete misnomer. It just stops them being strategic and intelligence led with their resources.
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Yep I would not want them walking around aimlessly. More polices officers great.

It's clear as day the is a massive problem in this country with money laundering so train police officers in that regard.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Makes you wonder why the tories did not do this when they were in power....

Good on Labour for this.

We all got to pay tax (most of the time anyway) so good on them.
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*bangs head against wall*. Do you actually think this is down to any politician? Operation on this scale will have been in the planning for months and months. It will probably have started well over a year ago. To get a single warrant in place for one of those coordinated raids would have required months of investigation and intelligence assessment to put before a judge in a hearing.

Plus, this isn't a community policing initiative. It's co-ordinated by the NCA, which means it is a "level 3" investigation (international organised crime)
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
*bangs head against wall*. Do you actually think this is down to any politician? Operation on this scale will have been in the planning for months and months. It will probably have started well over a year ago. To get a single warrant in place for one of those coordinated raids would have required months of investigation and intelligence assessment to put before a judge in a hearing.

Plus, this isn't a community policing initiative. It's co-ordinated by the NCA, which means it is a "level 3" investigation (international organised crime)
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The tories were in power for well over a decade. They had enough time to clamp down on it and also illegal migration. They did not, either through ineptitude or wilfully looking the other way.

Either way when the government do something we'll I will congratulate them. I don't pick sides.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
The tories were in power for well over a decade. They had enough time to clamp down on it and also illegal migration. They did not, either through ineptitude or wilfully looking the other way.

Either way when the government do something we'll I will congratulate them. I don't pick sides.
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The government hasn't done anything. Law enforcement agencies in this country pull off stuff like this despite government policy and underfunding not because of it.

Also, these raids make headlines but now watch our legal system bog down the investigation with disclosure requests and lack of court time.

My central point: I'd be shocked if an enquiry of this scale kicked off in the last year. Was likely begun under last government. Nothing to do with them mind, simply identification of a growing problem indicated through intelligence and the allocation of resources by central command to disrupt it. Organised immigration crime was a priority in setting up the NCA going back years.
 
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Silly McSilly Face said:
The government hasn't done anything. Law enforcement agencies in this country pull off stuff like this despite government policy and underfunding not because of it.

Also, these raids make headlines but now watch our legal system bog down the investigation with disclosure requests and lack of court time.

My central point: I'd be shocked if an enquiry of this scale kicked off in the last year. Was likely begun under last government. Nothing to do with them mind, simply identification of a growing problem indicated through intelligence and the allocation of resources by central command to disrupt it. Organised immigration crime was a priority in setting up the NCA going back years.
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The police take initiative from policies set out by the government.

I agree with the last part though.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
The police take initiative from policies set out by the government.

I agree with the last part though.
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They do, to an extent. But as much as there are proactive investigations (intelligence led) much of resource still obviously put into reactive investigations (report/complaint led). I.e. if govt prioritises XYZ but the public are calling up wanting help with ABC, the latter obviously takes priority.

And that's by big issue with this new Labour policy. It's the first time a govt has made central funding conditional on forces following government priority. Which means "Help I've been raped" or "theres been a murder" could well be met with "sorry, nobody is available, they're all out on foot patrol" in the not too distant future....
 
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Silly McSilly Face said:
They do, to an extent. But as much as there are proactive investigations (intelligence led) much of resource still obviously put into reactive investigations (report/complaint led). I.e. if govt prioritises XYZ but the public are calling up wanting help with ABC, the latter obviously takes priority.

And that's by big issue with this new Labour policy. It's the first time a govt has made central funding conditional on forces following government priority. Which means "Help I've been raped" or "theres been a murder" could well be met with "sorry, nobody is available, they're all out on foot patrol" in the not too distant future....
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However, there is a clear caveat in the policy that says the commanding hierarchy has autonomy to place people where they are most required so not to bottle neck people into certain roles for the sake of it, so to avoid that.

If they do it or no,t or its implemented we will see, but a move to more fluid policing and given people the power to deploy where they know its needed in their department/community, behind or away from the desk....is the way forward. There is no one sized fits all, what's good for Brixton is not good for Virginia Water
 
Grays_1890 said:
However, there is a clear caveat in the policy that says the commanding hierarchy has autonomy to place people where they are most required so not to bottle neck people into certain roles for the sake of it, so to avoid that.

If they do it or no,t or its implemented we will see, but a move to more fluid policing and given people the power to deploy where they know its needed in their department/community, behind or away from the desk....is the way forward. There is no one sized fits all, what's good for Brixton is not good for Virginia Water
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So 1) good to know but 2) kind of goes to my original point that this is a dressing up of the existing position as a new policy. Emperor's new clothes.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
So 1) good to know but 2) kind of goes to my original point that this is a dressing up of the existing position as a new policy. Emperor's new clothes.
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The current promise is 13,000 new officers not a move of people from other roles. Someone reconfirmed that on the old wireless today.

If so that's a good move, if not it's not because I don't advocate robbing Peter to pay Paul big IFS as always with this stuff.
 
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