*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City ***

[Muttley]

I'm not playing a numbers game. I'm playing a facts game. If our players are being pushed beyond their physical limits and are exhausted (and I'm not disputing that they look leggy and the number of soft tissue and stress injuries we have suggests they are being red-lined) it isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch. The *facts* don't back that perspective up. So then you have to look at other causes as to why, say, Kulusevski looks like he is about to pass out half the time when, say, Mo Salah, who has played more minutes both in Europe and the PL, looks fresh as a daisy.

You've got to look at training and conditioning, tactics and style of play.

I don't think Ange's training or tactics are sustainable in a league like the PL.

We've had knackered looking players and rafts of injuries for a season and a half now.

I actually did some of what you're saying and looked at the minutes of our players over time. Fatigue clearly is a concern for Porro, Kulu, Gray and Dragusin. These guys have pounded the treadmill in the short and mid term without rest. I reckon Bergval isn't far behind them actually.

Madds has now missed the FA Cup game and the Leciester game in Jan. Sarr hasn't completed 90 mins since 19 Dec. Their problem seems to be playing through injuries. In fact, that training video of Sarr last Friday was telling. He couldn't do 3/4 sprints and was the last to move between training stations. Probably because I was under the weather myself, I felt he should have been nowhere near that training ground and wouldn't play at the weekend. I felt for the kid.

You have to look at it on a case by case basis, but nobody will doubt the impact of the injuries and fatigue in the camp.

Said this already today, but as players return it will be massive. 11 lots of 95-100 mins being shared between 16 players is very different from 13 or 14. I also think that, this time, the microscope will be more on Ange as we watch his rotations and subs with a much higher focus than before.

 

[DubSpur]

...must be because there was more rotation than was thought in the early prt of the season...

Look, you can play the numbers game any way you like. Look at the sides we've put out the past two months, look at the games they've been playing, and tell me if it fits your logic test for human beings being pushed beyond reasonable physical states even as professsionals.

It's not just about the minutes played, it's the intensity, ground covered, and most importantly the number of sprints. That's what fatigues players and muscles.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not playing a numbers game. I'm playing a facts game. If our players are being pushed beyond their physical limits and are exhausted (and I'm not disputing that they look leggy and the number of soft tissue and stress injuries we have suggests they are being red-lined) it isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch. The *facts* don't back that perspective up. So then you have to look at other causes as to why, say, Kulusevski looks like he is about to pass out half the time when, say, Mo Salah, who has played more minutes both in Europe and the PL, looks fresh as a daisy.

You've got to look at training and conditioning, tactics and style of play.

I don't think Ange's training or tactics are sustainable in a league like the PL.

We've had knackered looking players and rafts of injuries for a season and a half now.

Look, if you want to play the 'Salah stats facts' game, then at least be thorough and mention the three extra 90+ minutes of football Deki has played internationall in the Nations League (Salah played 3 of Egypt's 6 Afcon qualifiers - he was granted an exemption by the national team manager for the other 3). That extra load probably explains why Postecoglu tried to not overplay Deki in the Europa league earlier in the season. Salah missed 12 games in 23/24. Deki missed 2 games. I'd suggest that in that time, Salah got some much needed rest and recovery, while Deki keeps running up the clock. There is usually deeper context and there are usually mitigating factors in the sort of stats you presented for player v player here. Liverpool's style of play, and Salah's, has certainly helped his cause, that's for sure. As has the greater array of experienced first-team forwards available to play.

What I continue to dispute about your assertion is it's non-contextual laser focus on a specific which supports your greater theory/belief.

I willingly accept that we need to review ALL areas of the club operation, from boardroom to manager to training ground, but to deny the effect that the current situation 'isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch' is actually defying the laws of human physical science. If you keep running the same core of people through 90+ minutes of football for week after week with no rest, it will have a direct effect on their physical health. Genuine question, do you play any sport or do any training on a regular basis? Have you? And I am not trying to dig you out, for all I know you might be an athlete mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's not just about the minutes played, it's the intensity, ground covered, and most importantly the number of sprints. That's what fatigues players and muscles.

Agreed. A major factor. It's also about the mental fatigue which coimes from playing in such situations.

 

[thfcsteff]

I actually did some of what you're saying and looked at the minutes of our players over time. Fatigue clearly is a concern for Porro, Kulu, Gray and Dragusin. These guys have pounded the treadmill in the short and mid term without rest. I reckon Bergval isn't far behind them actually.

Madds has now missed the FA Cup game and the Leciester game in Jan. Sarr hasn't completed 90 mins since 19 Dec. Their problem seems to be playing through injuries. In fact, that training video of Sarr last Friday was telling. He couldn't do 3/4 sprints and was the last to move between training stations. Probably because I was under the weather myself, I felt he should have been nowhere near that training ground and wouldn't play at the weekend. I felt for the kid.

You have to look at it on a case by case basis, but nobody will doubt the impact of the injuries and fatigue in the camp.

Said this already today, but as players return it will be massive. 11 lots of 95-100 mins being shared between 16 players is very different from 13 or 14. I also think that, this time, the microscope will be more on Ange as we watch his rotations and subs with a much higher focus than before.

Agreed and they shouldn't, no.

 

[SteveAWOL]

This is our starting position. Look how high Bergvall is. Where is Sarr?

View attachment 18671

By the time their lad gets its Sarr and Bergvall appear, running at full pelt and can't get near him. Potentially Davies could have pushed out but he then leaves Dragusin 1v1 so I can sort of understand his reluctance. Shambolic. You wouldn't see it at under 12.

View attachment 18672

No wonder Sarr is absolutely knackered, he’d just made a run up our right wing so Kulusevski had another option before he chose to play the one-two with Porro and next thing he has to spring all the way back to the edge of our area to try and cover for Bentancur!

You can see Porro scanning for a forward pass but Son is stood miles offside the entire time whilst Richarlison (probably nursing his groin at this point) takes too long to get back onside and Bergvall doesn’t move into a position where he can be found either.

Maybe if Kulusevski wasn’t knackered then he’s have shifted inside which could’ve opened up passing lane for Porro to find Sarr up right wing but the lack of movement from any of the other forward players left Porro with little choice but to play a lateral pass to Bentancur or risk a rollicking from gaffer by going back to Dragusin.

 

[Muttley]

No wonder Sarr is absolutely knackered, he’d just made a run up our right wing so Kulusevski had another option before he chose to play the one-two with Porro and next thing he has to spring all the way back to the edge of our area to try and cover for Bentancur!

You can see Porro scanning for a forward pass but Son is stood miles offside the entire time whilst Richarlison (probably nursing his groin at this point) takes too long to get back onside and Bergvall doesn’t move into a position where he can be found either.

View attachment 18675

Yep, but we're not playing Ange ball in this injury and fatigue ravaged part of the season apparently

Ange's midfield tactics are just a mess. To play fluid Ange football there is a lot of running off the ball to create situations where you have multiple passes on. When you're in crisis through injury and fatigue you need to maintain shape and you need to only press in certain zones. You need to conserve energy with the ball and use it intelligently.

It would have been a great education for the boys to learn these things in the last 2 months. Shame somebody tore those chapters out of Ange's playbook. It is why I can totally respect the injury and fatigue crisis, but I am really struggling to defend Ange. I'm not one of these that respects him for sticking to his principles thinking one day it will all be OK. Life doesn't work that way for football managers. You need to be pragmatic.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Yep, but we're not playing Ange ball in this injury and fatigue ravaged part of the season apparently

Ange's midfield tactics are just a mess. To play fluid Ange football there is a lot of running off the ball to create situations where you have multiple passes on. When you're in crisis through injury and fatigue you need to maintain shape and you need to only press in certain zones. You need to conserve energy with the ball and use it intelligently.

It would have been a great education for the boys to learn these things in the last 2 months. Shame somebody tore those chapters out of Ange's playbook. It is why I can totally respect the injury and fatigue crisis, but I am really struggling to defend Ange. I'm not one of these that respects him for sticking to his principles thinking one day it will all be OK. Life doesn't work that way for football managers. You need to be pragmatic.

If he stubbornly wants to play Plan A better but knows that Richarlsion and Sarr are carrying injuries then really is flabbergasting that the gaffer doesn’t bring on Moore (whom he clearly rates far higher than our other Academy products or Reguilon) for Richarlison during half time at the very least.

Those fresh legs at the start of 2nd half might’ve just been enough to keep Leicester on their toes and stop us folding so embarrassingly.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No wonder Sarr is absolutely knackered, he’d just made a run up our right wing so Kulusevski had another option before he chose to play the one-two with Porro and next thing he has to spring all the way back to the edge of our area to try and cover for Bentancur!

You can see Porro scanning for a forward pass but Son is stood miles offside the entire time whilst Richarlison (probably nursing his groin at this point) takes too long to get back onside and Bergvall doesn’t move into a position where he can be found either.

Maybe if Kulusevski wasn’t knackered then he’s have shifted inside which could’ve opened up passing lane for Porro to find Sarr up right wing but the lack of movement from any of the other forward players left Porro with little choice but to play a lateral pass to Bentancur or risk a rollicking from gaffer by going back to Dragusin.

View attachment 18675

Dont know why kulu didn’t run past his man after giving to to Porro so he could play that pass

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Look, if you want to play the 'Salah stats facts' game, then at least be thorough and mention the three extra 90+ minutes of football Deki has played internationall in the Nations League (Salah played 3 of Egypt's 6 Afcon qualifiers - he was granted an exemption by the national team manager for the other 3). That extra load probably explains why Postecoglu tried to not overplay Deki in the Europa league earlier in the season. Salah missed 12 games in 23/24. Deki missed 2 games. I'd suggest that in that time, Salah got some much needed rest and recovery, while Deki keeps running up the clock. There is usually deeper context and there are usually mitigating factors in the sort of stats you presented for player v player here. Liverpool's style of play, and Salah's, has certainly helped his cause, that's for sure. As has the greater array of experienced first-team forwards available to play.

What I continue to dispute about your assertion is it's non-contextual laser focus on a specific which supports your greater theory/belief.

I willingly accept that we need to review ALL areas of the club operation, from boardroom to manager to training ground, but to deny the effect that the current situation 'isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch' is actually defying the laws of human physical science. If you keep running the same core of people through 90+ minutes of football for week after week with no rest, it will have a direct effect on their physical health. Genuine question, do you play any sport or do any training on a regular basis? Have you? And I am not trying to dig you out, for all I know you might be an athlete mate.

Running the same core of people through 90+ minutes week after week after week is what the top clubs (those that regularly qualify for Europe) do though. They really do play their core starters week in, week out. If VVD is fit, he starts for Liverpool. Same with Salah, same with Saliba, Saka, same with Haaland, Rodri, Walker etc. They'll play in the PL and they'll play in the CL. Yes there's rotation but the core team plays.

The facts are that we have two players in the top 100 minutes played in the PL and neither were in the top 30. Kulu and Porro are actually playing a pretty normal amount of minutes for key players at an elite club.

As to your question i do a huge amount of exercise. Mainly for mental health reasons. But my body is catching up on me. I'm in my early 40s now and just recovered from a sports hernia operation. I had a bad ankle injury playing football a year and a half ago and it still gives me pain. I go for a run every other day (3.5-5K). Used to be every day. And i do weight training on the other days.

 

[Muttley]

If he stubbornly wants to play Plan A better but knows that Richarlsion and Sarr are carrying injuries then really is flabbergasting that the gaffer doesn’t bring on Moore (whom he clearly rates far higher than our other Academy products or Reguilon) for Richarlison during half time at the very least.

Those fresh legs at the start of 2nd half might’ve just been enough to keep Leicester on their toes and stop us folding so embarrassingly.

I can only tell you how I saw it. Doesn't make me right as there are many ways to skin a cat. Our cat obviously run away.

Firstly, I would have started with Kinsky; Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Reggie and Gray in place of Sarr. No doubt in my mind after watching Sarr in that training video and tracking his mins played through January would I have expected him to be fit to start. More data points came in the pressers as well. So I was shocked to see him start, but not shocked to see him struggling and looking like he was injured. I even put it on the OMT and a few commented back.

Anyway, let's go with Ange's team and realise quickly that Sarr isn't up to it, and then find out at half time the Richi issue. They are mutually exclusive because you get 3 sub opportunities and an extra one at half time. So you make the Reggie for Sarr sub at HT and put Gray in midfield. Then you give Richi his 5-10 mins, realise he can't carry on and get Moore on. At this stage you have 2 sub windows left and 3 subs.

You need to get back to playing with a target man but have an eye on red-liners Porro and Kulu who look leggy. It's potentially Porro off and Gray to RB, Kulu to midfield with Lanks at 9 and Moore or Sonny moving to the right. However, none of us know how fit Biss was. As he never came on I guess that answers that question. So you're down to Yang and Olusesi for Son and Kulu as your last options. I'm not sure whether you make none, one or both of those but know it is an option. I may not have made either actually.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Dont know why kulu didn’t run past his man after giving to to Porro so he could play that pass

Guessing he was simply knackered, like Son who if he’d managed to get onside would’ve left Porro with the option to ping the ball to opposite corner where we had a 3 vs 2 overload.

 

[Bullet]

Guessing he was simply knackered, like Son who if he’d managed to get onside would’ve left Porro with the option to ping the ball to opposite corner where we had a 3 vs 2 overload.

In the first place Deki should have flicked it over the top for Sarr. Not because he thinks Sarr will score, but because it is a safe option to put the ball up there.
Playing the ball back to a knackered Porro who was being closed down and had poor options, was a bad call. Mostly because he knows Sarr is waaaayyyy out of the game and Bergvall is also way out of the game on the other side of the pitch.
If your midfield is scattered like that, Deki should have chipped it over the top for Sarr.

And when Porro receives in that situation, he should chip it to Kinski to recycle to start again, since the "Sarr burst plan" had failed.

 

[thfcsteff]

Running the same core of people through 90+ minutes week after week after week is what the top clubs (those that regularly qualify for Europe) do though. They really do play their core starters week in, week out. If VVD is fit, he starts for Liverpool. Same with Salah, same with Saliba, Saka, same with Haaland, Rodri, Walker etc. They'll play in the PL and they'll play in the CL. Yes there's rotation but the core team plays.

The facts are that we have two players in the top 100 minutes played in the PL and neither were in the top 30. Kulu and Porro are actually playing a pretty normal amount of minutes for key players at an elite club.

As to your question i do a huge amount of exercise. Mainly for mental health reasons. But my body is catching up on me. I'm in my early 40s now and just recovered from a sports hernia operation. I had a bad ankle injury playing football a year and a half ago and it still gives me pain. I go for a run every other day (3.5-5K). Used to be every day. And i do weight training on the other days.

Addressing your post in reverse order!!!!!

Same here mate, certainly helps with me mental health tenfold (albeit I'm sure some would qestion that LOL)...sorry to hesr about the hernia stuff, a friend of mine went through similar and no fun at all; I cannot relate but can absolutely sympathize with how much that blows. Interested in what surface you hurt your ankle on? I love grass BUT rare to find good grass fields here, so it's all 3G, and I have actually modified my game to play on them as they are hard on the joints. I think it's @Gutter Boy who's somewhat in the field of studs/blades/footwear, all of which I've found have a huge impact if I don't get the match right. These days I stick to turf shoes. Again, sorry to hear about that injury. My son was a great youth player and ended up doing ACL/meniscus and later his ankle. Good luck with finding solutions. Brilliant on the running, and ditto weight training. I'm going to be 58 in March, and these days, aside from dog walkis, do 3 days a week at Orange Theory (HiT sessions an hour a time, cardio and weights) plus footy once a week. Being someone who would Wayne Rooney (in the current sense LOL) if I did even 10% less, it really is a matter of health and dignity for sure in my case. One thing I find is that if I do back-to-backs (either sessions or session/football) I feel it hard for a few days.


I accept your point in the dialectic sense i.e. another side of a bigger truth. Of the players you've listed, most have succumed to a long layoff due to over-playing at some point in the last two years (Saka, Haaland, Rodri). In fact, City have had a lot of muscle-based injuries thios season and certainly play a similar type of possession, high-intensity game. I would add that the mental side of this equation is very important too. The fact is there are several factors fornsure, but the continual playing of a core group of 14 players in the current situation is the main contributing factor (IMO).

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Addressing your post in reverse order!!!!!

Same here mate, certainly helps with me mental health tenfold (albeit I'm sure some would qestion that LOL)...sorry to hesr about the hernia stuff, a friend of mine went through similar and no fun at all; I cannot relate but can absolutely sympathize with how much that blows. Interested in what surface you hurt your ankle on? I love grass BUT rare to find good grass fields here, so it's all 3G, and I have actually modified my game to play on them as they are hard on the joints. I think it's @Gutter Boy who's somewhat in the field of studs/blades/footwear, all of which I've found have a huge impact if I don't get the match right. These days I stick to turf shoes. Again, sorry to hear about that injury. My son was a great youth player and ended up doing ACL/meniscus and later his ankle. Good luck with finding solutions. Brilliant on the running, and ditto weight training. I'm going to be 58 in March, and these days, aside from dog walkis, do 3 days a week at Orange Theory (HiT sessions an hour a time, cardio and weights) plus footy once a week. Being someone who would Wayne Rooney (in the current sense LOL) if I did even 10% less, it really is a matter of health and dignity for sure in my case. One thing I find is that if I do back-to-backs (either sessions or session/football) I feel it hard for a few days.


I accept your point in the dialectic sense i.e. another side of a bigger truth. Of the players you've listed, most have succumed to a long layoff due to over-playing at some point in the last two years (Saka, Haaland, Rodri). In fact, City have had a lot of muscle-based injuries thios season and certainly play a similar type of possession, high-intensity game. I would add that the mental side of this equation is very important too. The fact is there are several factors fornsure, but the continual playing of a core group of 14 players in the current situation is the main contributing factor (IMO).

I posted it last night in the injury Thread..l last season was a record for muscle injuries in the division and this league us gonna top that

 

[thfcsteff]

I posted it last night in the injury Thread..l last season was a record for muscle injuries in the division and this league us gonna top that

In a greater sense this is coming to football like a tsunami. You've heard us bang on about it on the pod. Too many games, too much long travel, too little rest. We shagged off the winter break here, for what? Squads will need to be bigger and top level careers will be less. I'd also say the extra 5-10 mins per game being added is a factor, albeit I have no issue with that whatsoever!

 

[SteveAWOL]

I can only tell you how I saw it. Doesn't make me right as there are many ways to skin a cat. Our cat obviously run away.

Firstly, I would have started with Kinsky; Porro, Dragusin, Davies, Reggie and Gray in place of Sarr. No doubt in my mind after watching Sarr in that training video and tracking his mins played through January would I have expected him to be fit to start. More data points came in the pressers as well. So I was shocked to see him start, but not shocked to see him struggling and looking like he was injured. I even put it on the OMT and a few commented back.

Anyway, let's go with Ange's team and realise quickly that Sarr isn't up to it, and then find out at half time the Richi issue. They are mutually exclusive because you get 3 sub opportunities and an extra one at half time. So you make the Reggie for Sarr sub at HT and put Gray in midfield. Then you give Richi his 5-10 mins, realise he can't carry on and get Moore on. At this stage you have 2 sub windows left and 3 subs.

You need to get back to playing with a target man but have an eye on red-liners Porro and Kulu who look leggy. It's potentially Porro off and Gray to RB, Kulu to midfield with Lanks at 9 and Moore or Sonny moving to the right. However, none of us know how fit Biss was. As he never came on I guess that answers that question. So you're down to Yang and Olusesi for Son and Kulu as your last options. I'm not sure whether you make none, one or both of those but know it is an option. I may not have made either actually.

I agree with your starting lineup and have no idea why Postecoglou has such a low opinion of Reguilon that he’d rather play a knackered Gray on the wrong flank than start a dedicated LB, with 80 PL appearances under his belt, there. At least Gray could’ve moved into MF then, like you say, and spare Sarr another injury.

Can understand him not wanting throw Olusesi in at the deep end and guessing Yang will need time to acclimatise but Lankshear getting so few minutes does seem a bit odd, as whilst he’s clearly a bit raw for PL level at least his fresh legs would keep defenders occupied in stark contrast to our static front line.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

In a greater sense this is coming to football like a tsunami. You've heard us bang on about it on the pod. Too many games, too much long travel, too little rest. We shagged off the winter break here, for what? Squads will need to be bigger and top level careers will be less. I'd also say the extra 5-10 mins per game being added is a factor, albeit I have no issue with that whatsoever!

It wasnt even a break in reality
My mate was saying they need time adjust PSR so clubs can have more players which I actually think is a fair argument
Games aren’t that much longer in reality but there are at least 2 more European and they come in January after a condensed Christmas period
It’s too much for a normal squad and some clubs have chosen to have a lesser squad and ride it out

 

[SteveAWOL]

In the first place Deki should have flicked it over the top for Sarr. Not because he thinks Sarr will score, but because it is a safe option to put the ball up there.
Playing the ball back to a knackered Porro who was being closed down and had poor options, was a bad call. Mostly because he knows Sarr is waaaayyyy out of the game and Bergvall is also way out of the game on the other side of the pitch.
If your midfield is scattered like that, Deki should have chipped it over the top for Sarr.

And when Porro receives in that situation, he should chip it to Kinski to recycle to start again, since the "Sarr burst plan" had failed.

Kulusevski could’ve simply played the ball first time into Sarr’s feet for him to knock it into the space. Guessing that Deki was looking to switch the play to where we had an overload but then realised that both Son and Richarlison are miles offside.

Perhaps if the gaffer wasn’t stood only a few yards away then Porro might’ve opted for the backpass but he probably didn’t want to be on the receiving end of a tantrum!

Bentancur of yesteryear might’ve been able to deal with that hospital pass but he’s not nearly so press resistant since the surgery.

 

[Robspur12]

Agreed. A major factor. It's also about the mental fatigue which coimes from playing in such situations.

Thing is Steff, fatigue will be a factor during a season whoever is in charge so will injuries. High intensity and short recovery times have become a fact of the PL. As a coach, you need to build that into your strategy. In a way it’s easier to accept that fatigue if expending all that energy is bringing with it some success. The problem with Ange is the worst of all worlds, fatigue and not enough to show for it. That combination then starts to affect him and the players mentally. We are seeing this already. I think there is only one way for this to go, which is why I think he should be replaced ASAP. Don’t understand what the club are thinking by not doing that which leads me to question Lange and Munn.