*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Leicester City ***

[Robspur12]

I will sound like a broken record but our CM is one of the worst i have seen for a long time. Its so open and we sadly lack a player who can see danger before it happens. None of our players have that ability and its the MAIN reason we concede so many goals and lose games.

I think it’s harsh to describe a midfield of Bentancur, Sarr, Biss, and Bergvall as one of the worst you’ve seen for a long time. That’s a lot of options. I don’t necessarily agree with your diagnosis of why we are conceding goals. It’s open yes but that’s a result of the tactics; we push the midfield up to press high with no one covering the space left. Seen it time and time again. See @DeanoAustin’s analysis above.

How do we know it’s tactical? because in the cup game against Liverpool we played differently and kept a clean sheet against one of the best teams in Europe currently. The double pivot were defending properly in front of the defence thereby denying the space to the Liverpool forwards. But it seems to me that Ange doesn’t like playing that way so reverts to type. Now that’s not on injuries, Ange is choosing to play that way. Which also results in more fatigue and mistakes as players are busting a gut to get back to cover.

 

[DubSpur]

A proper/good DM will see danger before its there and because of that will organise the rest of the CM players better, we see our CM players all over the place at times and there is no balance. A proper DM will tell his other M/F players to react much quicker and better. IMO

That's the defensive side. In that picture there was a huge space to exploit for a more attacking minded player in there with a straight forward pass from Porro.

 

[parklane1]

I think it’s harsh to describe a midfield of Bentancur, Sarr, Biss, and Bergvall as one of the worst you’ve seen for a long time. That’s a lot of options. I don’t necessarily agree with your diagnosis of why we are conceding goals. It’s open yes but that’s a result of the tactics; we push the midfield up to press high with no one covering the space left. Seen it time and time again.

How do we know it’s tactical? because in the cup game against Liverpool we played differently and kept a clean sheet against one of the best teams in Europe currently. The double pivot were defending properly in front of the defence thereby denying the space to the Liverpool forwards. But it seems to me that Ange doesn’t like playing that way so reverts to type.

Maybe i did not make myself clear enough [ old age you know], i am not saying the players are bad players just that we do not have one in there who is a DM and will organise the other CM into a better COMPACT state a overall. All our CM players have strengths but none of them have the vision to see the disorganisation our CM is at times. IMO.

 

[parklane1]

That's the defensive side. In that picture there was a huge space to exploit for a more attacking minded player in there with a straight forward pass from Porro.

Of course it is and i do not disagree, the point is our CM is wide open and stretched and we get overun because of it. We lack a player in CM who will/can see the gaps that we leave in there and because of that we areb so wide open.

 

[demotw]

I think it’s harsh to describe a midfield of Bentancur, Sarr, Biss, and Bergvall as one of the worst you’ve seen for a long time. That’s a lot of options. I don’t necessarily agree with your diagnosis of why we are conceding goals. It’s open yes but that’s a result of the tactics; we push the midfield up to press high with no one covering the space left. Seen it time and time again. See @DeanoAustin’s analysis above.

How do we know it’s tactical? because in the cup game against Liverpool we played differently and kept a clean sheet against one of the best teams in Europe currently. The double pivot were defending properly in front of the defence thereby denying the space to the Liverpool forwards. But it seems to me that Ange doesn’t like playing that way so reverts to type. Now that’s not on injuries, Ange is choosing to play that way. Which also results in more fatigue and mistakes as players are busting a gut to get back to cover.

The trouble is when the mid push up. In theory, the Def should push up at the same time to close down the space inbetween, if the gap is too big then mid do not push forward. Also it is no good one going while the other sits back as again it creates pockets for people to run into.

Our midfield is most definitely missing a general, someone with tactical awareness who can read the game. We are also missing a leader at the back however to work with that missing midfielder.

 

[Robspur12]

Of course it is and i do not disagree, the point is our CM is wide open and stretched and we get overun because of it. We lack a player in CM who will/can see the gaps that we leave in there and because of that we areb so wide open.

So Ange’s could overcome this to a certain extent by instructing the midfield not to push up and hold their position so we can keep our shape when a turnover occurs.

 

[parklane1]

So Ange’s could overcome this to a certain extent by instructing the midfield not to push up and hold their position so we can keep our shape when a turnover occurs.

We need a player who is in the CM who can direct the other CM players into a better shape, we do not have one whose mindset is that way. Ange can also instruct the players but what IS needed is a player in the CM to do that during the game. imo

 

[SpurMeUp]

Of course it is and i do not disagree, the point is our CM is wide open and stretched and we get overun because of it. We lack a player in CM who will/can see the gaps that we leave in there and because of that we areb so wide open.

We’ve have just Bissouma while Bentancur was out and now the reverse. They are the only two senior midfielders. And it’s questionable whether Bissouma plays like a senior player. 1 game out of 10 he seems to make a big boo boo.

Sarr, Bergvall and Gray are all exciting players. But we need another senior midfielder who can knit the team together.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I think it’s harsh to describe a midfield of Bentancur, Sarr, Biss, and Bergvall as one of the worst you’ve seen for a long time. That’s a lot of options. I don’t necessarily agree with your diagnosis of why we are conceding goals. It’s open yes but that’s a result of the tactics; we push the midfield up to press high with no one covering the space left. Seen it time and time again. See @DeanoAustin’s analysis above.

How do we know it’s tactical? because in the cup game against Liverpool we played differently and kept a clean sheet against one of the best teams in Europe currently. The double pivot were defending properly in front of the defence thereby denying the space to the Liverpool forwards. But it seems to me that Ange doesn’t like playing that way so reverts to type. Now that’s not on injuries, Ange is choosing to play that way. Which also results in more fatigue and mistakes as players are busting a gut to get back to cover.

Basically the only way Angeball can function properly in PL is if we can sign the next Rodri but even Guardiola hasn’t been able to do that with an unlimited transfer budget at his disposal, so I don’t know why Postecoglou cannot realise that what worked with the best team in SPL doesn’t necessarily do so in EPL (just as it didn’t for his Celtic team in CL).

 

[parklane1]

We’ve have just Bissouma while Bentancur was out and now the reverse. They are the only two senior midfielders. And it’s questionable whether Bissouma plays like a senior player. 1 game out of 10 he seems to make a big boo boo.

Sarr, Bergvall and Gray are all exciting players. But we need another senior midfielder who can knit the team together.

Indeed that is the point i was trying to make, as you say Biss is hit and miss as a player and always was at Brighton. Maddison is more of a creative player and Bents can not seem to get a run in the team[ i do think he is the best we have to play as a dm] but he is better as a all round CM. Sarr is still young and is not ready[imo] to play as the DM.

 

[Muttley]

I said on tonight's pod near the end that whatever side of the fence you sit, as long as we can all remember why we get so agitated about this (and maybe find a way to channel that into positive support for these dead-on-their-legs players) then that's all we can ask for. Healthy debate is vital.

On this, I think it would help if the pod was a little more factual and detailed on what that their use of the word fatigue means. I'm starting to think it's a really bad word as it only represents one bucket of root cause, the other two being long term injury returnees and playing with niggles. It's the sum of those 3 parts that creates the outcome. Worth remembering when you miss a couple of weeks with a small injury, your body is getting a rest from the intensity of that pitch.

There is such a massive difference between Porro and Kulu versus Davies and Richi versus Sarr. There is also a Reggie who is fresh as a daisy. Nobody is mentioning why it is totally fair why Reggie hasn't had any platform to play well. They just want to go from out in the cold to top form What he's actually doing is actually really decent and shows fantastic professionalism.

As for my first point, we cannot let this become a permanent narrative about fatigue as players return. We need to look objectively at how the club are working to keep everyone fresh. It's not possible at the moment, but it will be. There could be more Reggie / Sarr decisions that we judge our manager on.

 

[thfcsteff]

According to transfermarkt, Porro is our player with the most minutes played this season. He's played the 37th most minutes of PL players. Kulusevski is next at 46th. We don't have another player in the top 100......

...must be because there was more rotation than was thought in the early prt of the season...

Look, you can play the numbers game any way you like. Look at the sides we've put out the past two months, look at the games they've been playing, and tell me if it fits your logic test for human beings being pushed beyond reasonable physical states even as professsionals.

 

[Muttley]

View attachment 18667

This is a great example of how not to play

Why did he shoot from there ?
Where is the guy playing striker ?

On this one, I'm confused. Not his delusions of grandeur by shooting from there. I would just believe that as the cognition tires then you revert to type. My type would be getting crosses into the box as it's the easiest and most logical thing to do. I was an amateur RB. Porro's tired cognition RB thing is just massively complicating things. Porro wasn't just guilty of shooting when he should he passing, he was guilty throughout the game of missing the best opportunity to cross the ball. It was probably about 20 times. It's starting to look like Poch football.

Porro clearly can cross.

 

[Muttley]

I think that's mostly injuries/fatigue. Sarr is usually excellent at those covering jobs, but recently hasn't been.

In my opinion, he's been culpable when fully fit. I've written it multiple times on match threads. It's head vs heart conflict.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

On this one, I'm confused. Not his delusions of grandeur by shooting from there. I would just believe that as the cognition tires then you revert to type. My type would be getting crosses into the box as it's the easiest and most logical thing to do. I was an amateur RB. Porro's tired cognition RB thing is just massively complicating things. Porro wasn't just guilty of shooting when he should he passing, he was guilty throughout the game of missing the best opportunity to cross the ball. It was probably about 20 times. It's starting to look like Poch football.

Porro clearly can cross.

It’s desperation
I also think he thought he could make up for his mistakes

 

[DeanoAustin]

...must be because there was more rotation than was thought in the early prt of the season...

Look, you can play the numbers game any way you like. Look at the sides we've put out the past two months, look at the games they've been playing, and tell me if it fits your logic test for human beings being pushed beyond reasonable physical states even as professsionals.

Not really Steff. I'll use the 4-0 v City as an arbitrary cut off point.

First 11 league games, Deki played an average of 78.18 minutes . Since then, he's averaged 83.4 mins a game (12 games). That's an extra 5 mins, or 1 hour total, over a period of 2 months.

In the Europa, first 4 games, he averaged 33 mins. Last 3, he's averaged 75. Fair bit more but small number of games.

Carabao Cup, he's played full games in all bar the Coventry game. FA Cup, he played extra time.

For Porro, first 11 games, he averaged 89.7 mins in the league. Since then, 75.75 mins. So, taking the average, he's saved 168 mins in the league.

Europa League, average of 45 mins in the first 4, 90 mins in the last 3. Carabao cup, he didn't play the first two but he has played the last two.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

...must be because there was more rotation than was thought in the early prt of the season...

Look, you can play the numbers game any way you like. Look at the sides we've put out the past two months, look at the games they've been playing, and tell me if it fits your logic test for human beings being pushed beyond reasonable physical states even as professsionals.

I'm not playing a numbers game. I'm playing a facts game. If our players are being pushed beyond their physical limits and are exhausted (and I'm not disputing that they look leggy and the number of soft tissue and stress injuries we have suggests they are being red-lined) it isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch. The *facts* don't back that perspective up. So then you have to look at other causes as to why, say, Kulusevski looks like he is about to pass out half the time when, say, Mo Salah, who has played more minutes both in Europe and the PL, looks fresh as a daisy.

You've got to look at training and conditioning, tactics and style of play.

I don't think Ange's training or tactics are sustainable in a league like the PL.

We've had knackered looking players and rafts of injuries for a season and a half now.

 

[SteveAWOL]

View attachment 18667

This is a great example of how not to play

Why did he shoot from there ?
Where is the guy playing striker ?

What a stark contrast to the buildup for Leicester’s equaliser… their wide player had more of near post to aim for but went with the percentage cross which paid off.

 

[Jordinho]

...must be because there was more rotation than was thought in the early prt of the season...

Look, you can play the numbers game any way you like. Look at the sides we've put out the past two months, look at the games they've been playing, and tell me if it fits your logic test for human beings being pushed beyond reasonable physical states even as professsionals.

The amount of sprints they have to do, often over long distances, due to the lack of a proper defensive structure is certainly playing a part.

 

[90291Spur]

I'm not playing a numbers game. I'm playing a facts game. If our players are being pushed beyond their physical limits and are exhausted (and I'm not disputing that they look leggy and the number of soft tissue and stress injuries we have suggests they are being red-lined) it isn't because of the minutes they're having to put in on the pitch. The *facts* don't back that perspective up. So then you have to look at other causes as to why, say, Kulusevski looks like he is about to pass out half the time when, say, Mo Salah, who has played more minutes both in Europe and the PL, looks fresh as a daisy.

You've got to look at training and conditioning, tactics and style of play.

I don't think Ange's training or tactics are sustainable in a league like the PL.

We've had knackered looking players and rafts of injuries for a season and a half now.

You've also got to look at the fact that our players are in a team full of over-worked that is struggling- NOT WINNING - that is also in the midst of a huge injury crisis. That impacts the mental side of things.