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Winter

Afte work I will write a detailed response which will highlight why this is such a big part of my life.

For now I need to eat my chia seed and almond milk breakfast ...

:lol:

Nice retort

I like the Gifter's of this world. It's nice to get alternative viewpoints.

I bet Gifter would be a great camping buddy. (if you like camping)

He also has great taste in films

I also reckon he's taken more recreational drugs than most people have had hot dinners

And he probably looks like John Lennon, which is cool

I wouldn't want him to be my GP though
 
I don't know if it works or not, but there is a loose logic to it ...

The arachidonic acid Gifter mention is a precursor in production of prostaglandins and other molecules that are involved in the inflammatory and immune responses. Arachidonic acid also acts as a cellular signalling molecules where it plays a role in the inflammatory response.

That said, taking it as a dietary supplement is several steps away. No question a deficiency in these molecules would cause major problems but they are available in many foods and supplements aren't necessary if you have a balanced diet. The inflammatory and immune responses involve many molecules involved with complex interactions. It would be very harmful if these reactions were sensitivity to dietary intake, as you want the inflammatory response to respond to injury or infection, not what you eat (this is the major flaw in the logic).

Very nice jts1882, thanks. Know you are not backing my point but I like it none-the-less. It will draw a more detailed response of my thoughts though (Sorry all!)

If Scara et al and I didn't have such a history of butting heads over issues like these I would take more time to explain alot of things, the thing is even when I produce peer review studies (which are the only acceptable form to them) they just ignore it or claim that it has no relevance to the subject somehow.

In terms of immune response, the reason people get inflammatory conditions IMO (in many cases, not all) is that their immune system is sending signals that it is unwell (plus as a means of trying to isolate problematic substances it can't process out, if the blood/liver/lymphatic system/kidneys are not working as they should in a healthy state etc. In this instance arachidonic acid not being being released well via the liver is my postulation as a chief trigger and cause).
Scara seems to be suggesting this is the problem (an overactive immune response – to me the symptom) and that immune response lowering drugs are an answer, to me that is treating a symptom, not trying to heal the cause (as is the way with so much allopathic medicine, again IMO of course), which at best will allow the individual to carry on ingesting foods which are not conducive to their well being, if not short term, certainly longer term.
If you remove (rather minimise) the trigger, in this case very often Omega6 sources and instead ingest Omega3 (agreed, always best in a live base rather than any suppliment) most peoples bodies will re-balance (of course if liver/blood function is beyond rebalance then the problem becomes far deeper), I'm not suggesting removing all immune response food sources of course, but it is estimated that a good balance of omega3-6 is likely 1to1, if people look at the food charts, especially those who suffer these issues, I'm certain most will know they are way over that in favour of omega6 (even now I think mine is probably 5-1 but that is enough to keep me in check, everyone is different, so finding the balance is key IMO, some folks may be able to eat omega6 source foods to their hearts content, lucky them!).

That omega 3 would draw such response like it was snake oil is absurd to me, I really can't understand it. Forget peer review, double blind studies (though there are plenty as the med-student in the video relays), there are whole countries who are testament (Japan and others who have oily fish based diets etc), in my mind it is just arguing because I am the poster, sadly. Hell, you go into Tesco’s/Sainsbury’s et al all the foods are labelled with how much saturated fat is present, but no it is just snake oil peddling going on…. Hmmmm OK! I think most of the response comes from a lack of understanding and if I had termed it ‘cut out the bad fats and get some good fats’ it would draw much more support (not from Scara of course, or Arcspace judging by his barb).

There are cries of snake oil, rip off industry etc. Yet an Omega3 source food is about the same cost as Omega6, the medicine he backs costs the NHS 18K a year, for the patients life! (and you will not get life insurance for cancer if you are on it)

My belief is that a good balanced diet is the underpinning of good health, but also that it is very difficult to attain a diet that is sadly.

http://www.ysonut.es/pdf/Ysodoc/D060303.pdf
 
:lol:

Nice retort

I like the Gifter's of this world. It's nice to get alternative viewpoints.

I bet Gifter would be a great camping buddy. (if you like camping)

He also has great taste in films

I also reckon he's taken more recreational drugs than most people have had hot dinners

And he probably looks like John Lennon, which is cool

I wouldn't want him to be my GP though

LOL stay the fudge away from my leatherman skeletool and we're cool...
 
Very nice jts1882, thanks. Know you are not backing my point but I like it none-the-less. It will draw a more detailed response of my thoughts though (Sorry all!)

If Scara et al and I didn't have such a history of butting heads over issues like these I would take more time to explain alot of things, the thing is even when I produce peer review studies (which are the only acceptable form to them) they just ignore it or claim that it has no relevance to the subject somehow.

Not true. I will accept any peer reviewed study you can show me where your 'medicine' has gone through a double-blind trial to remove the placebo effect and still shows a statistically significant effect.

Blah blah blah

Wow. A genetic condition cured by diet? Please send me tickets to the ceremony when you pick up your Nobel prize.

Nobody is contesting that a balanced diet reduces the chance of many really nasty things happening, but you cannot go from that to the kind of direct link you keep promoting. The body simply doesn't work like that. Eating healthily and exercising = a smaller risk of heart disease. That's not the same as a cure for heart disease.

Oh, and "rebalancing the body". WTF? What are you talking about rebalancing? Maybe eating fatty foods makes my left arm heavier and makes me more likely to tip over?
 
Where is my promised detailed response, Gifter - the one where you explain your ever-growing need to tell everyone what to eat in just about every thread?

To me you've just been counter-brainwashed, fella - no offence. And in the process end up spending more on it.

No-one is suggesting having a balanced diet/lifestyle is a bad approach, but curing cancer by eating rare seaweed and rubbing crystals together is a stretch too far.
 
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I generally like seasons, including winter, but don't like the extremes for long periods.

I've lived through five Minnesota winters. The temperature drops below freezing late Nov/early Dec and never goes above it until about March. In Jan/Feb you can have daytime highs around 10-15F (ca -10C). That is damn cold and when the wind blows you'd better be wrapped up. However some of the sunny winter days around January are wonderful. Its so cold the snow remains frozen and you don't get black ice on the roads. Its sunny, the air crisp and dry and the snow covered countryside is great. Where these winters got depressing was by Mar/Apr when the snows began to melt, it became slippery, and it was overcast.

The opposite end I have experienced is the summers in the US. On the East Coast it is horrible when its 95 and humid for weeks on end, barely dropping below 90 at night. You walk out of an air-conditioned building and hit this wall of wet heat. Absolutely awful. This is where you learn to tip the barman at the local air-conditioned bar. A most depressing day was the first thunderstorm. I expected it to clear the air like it does in Britain and it does for a bit, until a few seconds after the rain stops.

The dry hot summers of the south-west are much easier to handle, even if it gets hotter. The summers are worse in Minnesota than Los Angeles. But it soon gets boring without a winter. Curiously enough the locals still behave as if its winter. In LA they bring out the fleece jackers and parkas when it drops into the 50s. In San Diego some of the beaches are closed until May because it is too cold (under 80).

So I like winter, just not too much of it.

This post has pretty much summed up my feelings about winter.

If winter was say 6 weeks long, I would enjoy it far more. It's good to have a change in seasons I suppose, but I don't think I'd miss the cold If I moved somewhere warm like Florida or California. It's just our winters in England seem to drag on for so long, and the summers fly by. This year has been compounded it because we didn't actually get a summer.

The downer for me is I know the weather is not going to improve now until April at the earliest.
 
Very nice jts1882, thanks. Know you are not backing my point but I like it none-the-less. It will draw a more detailed response of my thoughts though (Sorry all!)

If Scara et al and I didn't have such a history of butting heads over issues like these I would take more time to explain alot of things, the thing is even when I produce peer review studies (which are the only acceptable form to them) they just ignore it or claim that it has no relevance to the subject somehow.

No offence meant, but the rest of the post is probably why they do.

The immune system is an incredible complex system with many feedbacks and regulatory mechanisms. The whole "design" is so that that it responds to injury and foreign invasion. The whole purpose is that its activity responds to the need to deal with particular problems.

The omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids are generally just the molecules that are the raw materials for synthesis of prostaglandins and other eicosanoids. If the synthesis was controlled by the dietary levels of these fatty acids the whole system would fail. You want more of these signalling molecules when there is injury or an infection, not when you eat a particular fish oil.

The comparison with reducing sugar for diabetes is not a good one. Sugar is the trigger for the insulin response, whereas the triggers for the inflammatory response are injury or infection, not the omega-3 or omega-6 fatty acids. Ideally the response it would be independent of substrate concentrations and normally is. Moreover, the sugar-insulin relationship is a relatively simple feedback and easy to predict what is happening. The immune system is far more complex and taking large amounts of one nutrient will have multiple affects. For instance, reducing inflammation will probably be accompanied by increased risk of infection.

Now this is not to say there are not benefits to consuming fish oils (although I once bought an omega-3 enriched olive oil without realising and couldn't work out why my food smelt of fish). You do want to make sure that your diet has sufficient nutrients. But as with vitamins, a healthy person on a balanced diet doesn't need supplements, although for the old, young or unhealthy they have their place. Certainly, if you have an inflammatory condition you might want to avoid foods rich in omega-6 fatty acids as they could aggravate the immune response.

P.S. Peer-reviewed articles have to be taken in context. There are also a lot of poor articles and journals where the peer-review is limited.
 
The immune system is an incredible complex system with many feedbacks and regulatory mechanisms. The whole "design" is so that that it responds to injury and foreign invasion. The whole purpose is that its activity responds to the need to deal with particular problems.

The omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids are generally just the molecules that are the raw materials for synthesis of prostaglandins and other eicosanoids. If the synthesis was controlled by the dietary levels of these fatty acids the whole system would fail. You want more of these signalling molecules when there is injury or an infection, not when you eat a particular fish oil.

Agreed, to an extent, but that is not what I claimed at all, eating to much omega 6 rich foods (among other things) leads to molecules trigger attachments becoming way to far swayed towards omega 6 phospholipids (inflammation triggers) which cause a form of hyper inflammatory response (IMO), so forms of mild antagonists create dramatic responses, inflamation (Rosacea/Eczema breakouts in this scenario) such as when I was suffering Rosacea, eating certain foods like chili would break me out. This is a big part of why immune suppressants are becoming prevalent in medicine is it not? (along with the destruction of our digestive fauna and hosts of other reasons of course)

I'm not claiming that omega rich oil has the immediacy you seem to have drawn from my words. You need a balance in this system, not a saturation of omega6 based phospholipids. If it has no bearing (as you suggest) though dietary intake, why do you later suggest it to be a good idea to avoid omega6? or is it only Omega6 b ranch of this chain you accept is affected by diet? seems a little odd.

The comparison with reducing sugar for diabetes is not a good one. Sugar is the trigger for the insulin response, whereas the triggers for the inflammatory response are injury or infection, not the omega-3 or omega-6 fatty acids. Ideally the response it would be independent of substrate concentrations and normally is. Moreover, the sugar-insulin relationship is a relatively simple feedback and easy to predict what is happening. The immune system is far more complex and taking large amounts of one nutrient will have multiple affects. For instance, reducing inflammation will probably be accompanied by increased risk of infection.

I didn't bring up sugar, except to say it was part of my dietary change which cured Rosacea. No idea where you got Diabetes from.

The second part is of course correct, it is my belief that balancing the two (reduced inflammation - increased risk of infection) is endemic to health, and stand by the claim that you can achieve this through diet (how else does the body regenerate after all?!), or are you claiming that in fact we are not what we eat?

Now this is not to say there are not benefits to consuming fish oils (although I once bought an omega-3 enriched olive oil without realising and couldn't work out why my food smelt of fish). You do want to make sure that your diet has sufficient nutrients. But as with vitamins, a healthy person on a balanced diet doesn't need supplements, although for the old, young or unhealthy they have their place. Certainly, if you have an inflammatory condition you might want to avoid foods rich in omega-6 fatty acids as they could aggravate the immune response.

As we are talking about Rosacea/Ezcema/Arthritis we are hardly talking about healthy people are we? I'm in complete agreement that folks with a healthy balanced diet don't need supplements.

So at the end of it you are agreeing with avoiding Omega 6, but refute the suggestion Omega 3 is a good counter balance? really? Did you look at - http://www.ysonut.es/pdf/Ysodoc/D060303.pdf ? There are countless other studies also, as you have some form of medical/biology background I'm very surprised at this, given the acknowledgement that Omega 6 should be avoided.

I have no medical background, so sorry if my vernacular is poor and confused!

It staggers me that you would think Infliximab is unworthy of comment. Thoughts please? If you had a condition where it is prescribed, what would you do? Take Infliximab, adjust your diet, or other? Very interested and would like a hand on heart response please.

Thanks though, you have highlighted big gaps in my knowledge I'm going to go away and study. I've studied for many years in my spare time to become as pig ignorant as I am now!
 
Where is my promised detailed response, Gifter - the one where you explain your ever-growing need to tell everyone what to eat in just about every thread?

To me you've just been counter-brainwashed, fella - no offence. And in the process end up spending more on it.

No-one is suggesting having a balanced diet/lifestyle is a bad approach, but curing cancer by eating rare seaweed and rubbing crystals together is a stretch too far.

Whatever, I was going to respond after work, as stated, but JTS is engaging and I might learn something from him, so I responded to him at lunchtime. Can't be arsed now though seeing your response.
 
Effects of the omega-6 : omega-3 fatty acid ratio of fat emulsions on the fatty acid composition in cell membranes and the anti-inflammatory action.
Hagi A, Nakayama M, Shinzaki W, Haji S, Ohyanagi H.

Source
R&D Center, Otsuka Pharmaceutical Factory, Inc, Tokushima, Japan. hagiak@otsukakj.co.jp

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
This study investigated the effects of parenterally administered fish oil (FO) on the fatty acid composition in rats to determine the optimal omega-6 : omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acid (PUFA) ratio of fat emulsions to achieve an anti-inflammatory effect.

METHODS:
Male Sprague-Dawley rats were infused a parenteral nutrition (PN) solution containing fat emulsions with different omega-6 : omega-3 PUFA ratios. The fatty acid content of phospholipids in the membranes of splenocytes was analyzed by gas chromatography (experiment 1). In addition, the amounts of leukotriene (LT) B(4) and LTB(5) released from peritoneal polymorphonuclear leukocytes (PMNs) were measured by high-performance liquid chromatography (experiment 2).

RESULTS:
In experiment 1, after infusion of the fat emulsion containing FO, the omega-3 PUFA content in cell membranes rose to 70% of the peak value on day 1 and nearly reached a plateau on day 3. The highest ratio of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) to arachidonic acid (AA) was achieved by administering a PN solution with the smallest omega-6 : omega-3 PUFA ratio. In experiment 2, a larger amount of LTB(5) was released from Ca-ionophore-stimulated PMNs taken from rats given a larger quantity of FO. The ratio of LTB(5):LTB(4) released from PMNs correlated positively with the EPA:AA ratio in the membranous phospholipid and in serum.

CONCLUSIONS:
The omega-3 PUFAs were readily incorporated into the cell membrane within 3 days of infusion with the fat emulsion. The EPA:AA ratio in membranous phospholipid in PMNs was positively correlated with the LTB(5):LTB(4) production ratio and was a good indicator of anti-inflammatory effects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20467008


PS. there are masses of these...
 
As you brought up diabetes and said it was a poor link, my only thought was in relation to Rosacea, anyhoooo, turns out you might well be wrong here also;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22705429

Plasma phospholipid polyunsaturated fatty acids and homocysteine in Chinese type 2 diabetes patients.

Huang T, Asimi S, Lou D, Li D.

Source
Department of Food Science and Nutrition, Zhejiang University, Hangzhou, China.

Abstract
The main aim of the present study was to investigate the plasma phospholipids (PL) fatty acids status and its association with plasma Hcy in patients with type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM). One hundred and four T2DM (aged 57.3±13.4 y) and 150 healthy subjects (aged 48.4±8.7 y) were recruited. Plasma Hcy and PL fatty acids were determined by standard methods. Plasma Hcy concentration in T2DM was significantly higher than that in healthy subjects (p<0.001). The prevalence of hyperhomocysteinemia was significantly higher in T2DM (36.54%) than that in healthy subjects (17.32%) (p=0.012). Plasma PL 20:4n-6 (r=0.303, p=0.012), 22:5n-3 (r=0.312, p=0.01), total PUFA (r=0.303, p=0.012), n-6 PUFA (r=0.261, p=0.032) were significantly positively associated with plasma Hcy concentration in T2DM. While, plasma PL n-3:n-6 PUFA (r=-0.400, p=0.046) was negatively associated with plasma Hcy in T2DM. In healthy subjects, plasma PL 22:6n-3 (r=-0.201, p=0.042) was negatively associated with plasma Hcy. In addition, plasma PL 22:6n-3 (r=0.193, p=0.044) and 22:5n-6 (r=0.234, p=0.038) were significantly negatively associated with plasma vitamin B-12 in healthy subjects. Our results suggested that increased plasma Hcy levels in T2DM associated with low n-3:n-6 ratio intake. We suggest that T2DM increase their long chain n-3 PUFA intake from fish or fish oil while decrease n-6 PUFA intake.

I felt dissed and rinsed at lunchtime, now I'm feeling mighty vindicated I tell thee! My reading continues, those who don't like it, sorry!
 
Sorry, the edit function is screwed for me at the moment, was going to add that was directed at JTS. Plus sorry I would have edited out the smiley and neatened the formatting.
 
One more for Scara (cited by 58);

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16522903

Mediterranean-inspired diet lowers the ratio of serum phospholipid n-6 to n-3 fatty acids, the number of leukocytes and platelets, and vascular endothelial growth factor in healthy subjects.

Ambring A, Johansson M, Axelsen M, Gan L, Strandvik B, Friberg P.

Source
Department of Clinical Physiology, The Sahlgrenska Academy at Göteborg University, Göteborg, Sweden.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Reduced cardiovascular mortality and morbidity have been shown in persons adhering to Mediterranean-inspired diets (MIDs). Although the underlying mechanisms of this association are poorly understood, the importance of increasing dietary amounts of polyunsaturated fatty acids of the n-3 series has been emphasized.

OBJECTIVE:
We investigated whether a MID provided to healthy subjects would affect 1) the inflammatory process and endothelial indexes such as vasoregulation and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) and 2) serum phospholipid fatty acid composition.

DESIGN:
A total of 22 subjects (10 women) received a MID or an ordinary Swedish diet (OSD) for 4 wk in a crossover fashion. Concentrations of lipids and fatty acids, high-sensitivity C-reactive protein, and interleukin 6, both before and after lipopolysaccharide stimulation; the number of leukocytes and platelets; and VEGF and monocyte chemoattractant protein 1 were analyzed.

RESULTS:
The plasma ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acids was substantially lower after the MID than after the OSD (x +/- SEM: 4.72 +/- 0.19 and 2.60 +/- 0.17, respectively; P < 0.0001). Neither C-reactive protein nor interleukin 6 concentrations changed significantly after the MID compared with the OSD. The total number of leukocytes and platelets was 10% (P < 0.05) and 15% (P < 0.001) lower, respectively, after the MID than after the OSD. Serum VEGF concentrations were lower after the MID than after the OSD (237 +/- 30 and 206 +/- 25 pg/mL, respectively; P = 0.0014).

CONCLUSIONS:
A MID reduces the number of platelets and leukocytes and VEGF concentrations in healthy subjects. This may be linked to higher serum concentrations of n-3 fatty acids, which promote a favorable composition of phospholipids.
 
that is some top sh!t right there brother, and the combo with almond milk is a good one. Any milk derived from nuts and seeds is like heaven. I also like mixing the chia with freshly pressed apple juice

cant live without our
OscarVital900_fruit_small.jpg



great for all seasons

Cool stuff.

Don't have enough apples nowadays, this is the time for 'em as well, great for malic acid. Hope that is an masticating juicer (guess it is with the wheatgrass showing), we have one but it's not as swish looking as that, generally carrots are our staple into it, but it spends too much time packed away TBH.
 
Please don't think I'm ignoring this - it takes a good hour or two to pick apart the methods used in a paper like this so I'll probably need to look over the weekend.

In you're own time bro, it must take time to figure your way out of the mess your argument is in... :)

JTS has gone awful quiet to, so authoritative yesterday... I had high hopes we might be bickering buddies!

I'm away now until tuesday, so I'll be looking forward to re-engaging this then.
 
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