Where did this all begin - are we to blame?

[Finney Is Back]

You claimed (or seemed to) that fans are more forgiving if we play at a high tempo than if we play in a more intelligent, considered way. So for two similar results, the only difference is the opinion of the fans - that's just a lack of patience in the fans, not a fault of the manager.

Yesterday's performance would never have happened under the Dinotard as it would have required patience and thought - an attribute and an ability he severely lacks.

I'm not sure of that. If we had created chances and been done on the sucker punch you could claim we were unlucky. An example of that was perhaps against Saudi Sportswashing Machine at home under AVB (although we did somewhat waste the first half of that game before upping the intensity and pace after the break) Yesterday we weren't unlucky, we got exactly what we deserved as did WBA. We created pretty much nothing the whole game, against probably one of the weakest 5 or 6 teams in the league. Let me ask you a question.... Do you think yesterday's performance was:

a) Acceptable
b) Good
c) Tactically astute
d) Entertaining.

Additionally were you one of the paying punters at WHL being lucky enough to witness it live?


A yes or no answer for each please.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm not sure the system is necessarily the problem. Maybe it was the application. The tenacity, intensity were missing. He is paid to figure out why the players didn't perform with the same gusto that they did v QPR and where we failed. But you can't round on him so quickly. (I'm not saying you are, but I have unbelievably seen others do so).

Maybe the system won't suit these players. But these are things Pochettino needs to learn. He will see things differently than either you or I and I hope he will have an ideal in mind of what he wants to achieve and what it takes to get there. It just won't happen over night.

I do think with these failings he becomes a step closer to putting it right. I hope so at least.

Good points. Although I think the difference between the QPR (and Sunderland) games that I think we have done well in and those where we haven't done so well are that QPR and Sunderland sat back whereas Liverpool, WBA and to an extent West Ham have all looked to press us and commit men forward.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

When you play boring slow football you can not expect the fans to make the same noise as 20 years ago when the game was exciting. If this is the new age of football where by we have little but "chess" style movement on the pitch then you should expect a chess like crowd watching it.

Personally despite Levy's several dalliances with the director of football I see no clear strategy or plan at Tottenham, we buy players to suit one style of play and then sack the manager and bring in another manager who needs a different sort of player.

My criticism of Levy is not that he spends money we do not have it is how he spends the money we do have. We have a good youth system these days. Players like Velkovic and Bentaleb are proof of that. Also caulker, Livermore, Townsend and Kane are decent enough squad players. We should have been using what money we had for star players as we now produce our own decent squad players.

Giving managers a proper full pre season would also be a good start as would better use of the loan market like Song(west ham) I do like the signing of Yedlin about the only positive in the last 6 months.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Also when we get our new stadium I hope we make the pitch larger/wider I think it why we struggle at home because teams can set up defensively against us.

 

[scaramanga]

I'm not sure of that. If we had created chances and been done on the sucker punch you could claim we were unlucky. An example of that was perhaps against Saudi Sportswashing Machine at home under AVB (although we did somewhat waste the first half of that game before upping the intensity and pace after the break) Yesterday we weren't unlucky, we got exactly what we deserved as did WBA. We created pretty much nothing the whole game, against probably one of the weakest 5 or 6 teams in the league. Let me ask you a question.... Do you think yesterday's performance was:

a) Acceptable
b) Good
c) Tactically astute
d) Entertaining.

Additionally were you one of the paying punters at WHL being lucky enough to witness it live?


A yes or no answer for each please.

a) No
b) No
c) Yes
d) Yes

Fortunately wasn't there to see it.

Your post, BTW is a very good example of what I think is wrong. If I'm correct, you're trying to lead me down a path that says slow build up play is not entertaining, where in fact, it is. Football doesn't have to be high paced, energetic or of high intensity to be good - in fact, I prefer it not to be.

 

[jimmyb]

Can we not make this a thread for discussion about yesterday's game or what formations / players we should or shouldn't be playing?

Please.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think the obsession with champs league is also to blame. Wish it was like cycling where a cyclist can take time out to build a bid for a grand tour. If it were down to me I would deliberately not qualify for the the europa league next season so we could put in a proper bid for champs league the following season.

Use this year to bed in some young players get others like Eriksen and Lamela really ready to start firing. Line up some good/star potential players like the Ajax duo Veltman and Klassen. We could if a striker settled in well even have a tilt at the title if we had no European football to contend with.

 

[Finney Is Back]

a) No
b) No
c) Yes
d) Yes

Fortunately wasn't there to see it.

I am intruiged by your answer to c)..... Particularly in light of the fact that we struggled to find any space in attacking areas and created virtually nothing for 90 minutes, whereas West Brom seemed to be able to find space centrally in between our defence and midfield on many occasions during the game.

I also suspect that your answer to d) may have been very different if you'd paid the 60 odd quid and taken 4 or 5 hours out of your day to go and watch it. I can honestly say that I was bored sitting there.... So bored in fact that I decided to try to relieve the boredom by trying to specifically watch Capoue to try to get a true idea of exactly how inept he is when we are defending.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Can we not make this a thread for discussion about yesterday's game or what formations / players we should or shouldn't be playing?

Please.

Surely it's all linked mate?.... The fans will get behind the team if the team give them something to get behind. There was just so little to get behind yesterday in terms of exciting, attacking play.

 

[scaramanga]

I am intruiged by your answer to c)..... Particularly in light of the fact that we struggled to find any space in attacking areas and created virtually nothing for 90 minutes, whereas West Brom seemed to be able to find space centrally in between our defence and midfield on many occasions during the game.

I also suspect that your answer to d) may have been very different if you'd paid the 60 odd quid and taken 4 or 5 hours out of your day to go and watch it. I can honestly say that I was bored sitting there.... So bored in fact that I decided to try to relieve the boredom by trying to specifically watch Capoue to try to get a true idea of exactly how inept he is when we are defending.

I don't think the problem was the tactics, I think the problem was (as it has been for years against perceived weaker teams) a lack of motivation in important areas.

 

[wiziwig]

whilst their atmospheres aren't great i don't think they are as negative as ours.

Bang on , we're the worst, even the Goons are better supported by their home crowd.

Last time I were at the Lane it were a few seasons back and I were shocked how bad it's got. I were sat in the East Stand Lower and Kyle Walker were getting it bad. I hated the day .

 

[Gutter Boy]

Mate what's your twitter account?

I've only got a work one which I slyly follow a few Spurs-related things. I don't post anything non-work on there

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think the problem was the tactics, I think the problem was (as it has been for years against perceived weaker teams) a lack of motivation in important areas.

Interesting.... So I assume by that you think that Capoue simply couldn't be bothered to track their midfield runners and get goalside when West Brom attacked? Same when Sessegnon or Berahino dropped off? And you must also think that it was a lack of motivation that caused Lamela and (especially) Chadli to ignore the opposition fullbacks runs forward? Surely if this was the case then the manager hauls those players off early on to make it absolutely clear that a lack of motivation will not be tolerated?

If the manager had his tactics right yesterday and the players were not motivated then I expect to see a whole raft of changes for our next league game - otherwise the manager is sending out a very dangerous message indeed.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Bang on , we're the worst, even the Goons are better supported by their home crowd.

Last time I were at the Lane it were a few seasons back and I were shocked how bad it's got. I were sat in the East Stand Lower and Kyle Walker were getting it bad. I hated the day .

That's not true.... I was there when we lost 5-2 after being two nil up and that was REALLY poisonous when we were 2-0 up. Walcott in particular getting an absolute shed load of abuse. Additionally I was there (through gritted teeth) as a corporate host when they lost to Villa at the start of last season and I haven't heard anything like that at the lane since the days of Christian Gross (and remember this was their fans getting on the back of by far their most successful ever manager!).

 

[Jordinho]

I think the obsession with champs league is also to blame. Wish it was like cycling where a cyclist can take time out to build a bid for a grand tour. If it were down to me I would deliberately not qualify for the the europa league next season so we could put in a proper bid for champs league the following season.

Use this year to bed in some young players get others like Eriksen and Lamela really ready to start firing. Line up some good/star potential players like the Ajax duo Veltman and Klassen. We could if a striker settled in well even have a tilt at the title if we had no European football to contend with.

But cycling is about teams as well and the team can't take a break. They have sponsors and fans that demand results. What cycling directors do that football managers struggle with is rotation, monitoring their fitness and making sure the right riders are in form at the right time.

 

[Jordinho]

AVB got one thing spot on last season and it was one of the things that contributed to his position becoming untenable. But our home "support" is embarrassing at times.

There's probably a few contributing factors. But I think our:
36000 seater stadium
24000 season ticket holder
80000 fan base (or whatever it is)
predicament is part of the problem.

I'm sure we have lots of nice friendly positive season ticket holders. But far far far too many of them are know it alls, who really should ditch their ticket for a while and take up bowls, but don't want to do so because they still love the club and don't want to lose the opportunity to buy a season ticket.

Any other club is either small fry so you can walk right back in, or are achieving at a higher level than us.

Quite a lot of fans no longer go to support the team. It's like they're doing a chore and obviously expecting a reward at the end.

I used to think those that had no interest in football and spent the game looking at their phone was bad, stealing a seat from a "real" fan, but at least they just sit there quietly.

 

[DublinSpur]

I think the obsession with champs league is also to blame. Wish it was like cycling where a cyclist can take time out to build a bid for a grand tour. If it were down to me I would deliberately not qualify for the the europa league next season so we could put in a proper bid for champs league the following season.

You say the obsession with champs league is partly to blame for the decline in the passion of fans, and there may well be some truth in that. But then you suggest we deliberately under-perform in order to help our chances of champs league qualification. Don't you see how that represents the ultimate champs league obsession?

 

[jimmyb]

Surely it's all linked mate?.... The fans will get behind the team if the team give them something to get behind. There was just so little to get behind yesterday in terms of exciting, attacking play.

I've no problem with mentioning the team as a cause for the lack of atmosphere.

But we don't need to go into chapter and verse on players and tactics. There are enough other threads for that already, surely? I'm not interested in those threads (think sand and ostrich head ) but I am interested in the subject of this thread, so I'd prefer that we stick to it!

 

[scaramanga]

Interesting.... So I assume by that you think that Capoue simply couldn't be bothered to track their midfield runners and get goalside when West Brom attacked? Same when Sessegnon or Berahino dropped off? And you must also think that it was a lack of motivation that caused Lamela and (especially) Chadli to ignore the opposition fullbacks runs forward? Surely if this was the case then the manager hauls those players off early on to make it absolutely clear that a lack of motivation will not be tolerated?

If the manager had his tactics right yesterday and the players were not motivated then I expect to see a whole raft of changes for our next league game - otherwise the manager is sending out a very dangerous message indeed.

How many of our team can he haul off? I can only think of Rose and maybe Lamela (attacking only) that gave it a real go yesterday.

Of course the manager needs to be getting the players motivated, but this has been a problem for a long time for us - since the early days of Redknapp.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

But cycling is about teams as well and the team can't take a break. They have sponsors and fans that demand results. What cycling directors do that football managers struggle with is rotation, monitoring their fitness and making sure the right riders are in form at the right time.

Actually that is a fair point they do have to stay competitive for sponsors. What we could do is target the cups more while just treading water in the league while trying to form a team that can have a real crack at the league in 2015/1016.